EPT[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 16
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
1) straight DA tech - like pusan vs ych 2) sair/+1speedlot to DA - like bom vs mbc 3) +1speedlot to DA first - like TT1 rep Thing is, they are all pretty much the same with slight differences. Its not like one is clearly the way to go. They all have in common dts as first archive units and being morphed asap. The difference between 1 & 2 is attack vs faster DA, both are viable. Option 3 is a mix between 1 and 2 in that it allows for an attack & DA as fast as with straight tech due to no stargate. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Those ideas could help hiding the DA tech which makes it more effective. | ||
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chekyosikz
United States24 Posts
On topic, I think that the DA is a great idea and I've been testing it out recently. Being a slower player (only ~150 apm) I often neglect to scout with sairs in favor of macroing and hotkeying/positioning units. Also, I find that most of the time it is difficult to deal with muta sniping because it happens so quickly that one of my HTs will typically be dead/in the process of dying as I begin to react to the 'under attack' alert. This is why I choose to give it a shot. Naturally, when trying something new I haven't been able to find an opponent that does what I want (stack muta temp-snipe) yet so I don't have any replays. Too hard to find the right games vs. the right player I guess, bu then again I haven't been playing much. Anyways, the DA does fit well into the build order and it is ABSOLUTELY essential that you don't lose a DT early without doing serious damage with it. I'm hoping to meet up with a friend or meet a cool guy on bnet that will help me test the effectiveness. If I get a good replay of this build order being used (win or lose) against a HT-sniping Zerg I will upload it for sure. I think this is a great innovation for PvZ and if you play any Micro maps then you know how much it rapes to maelstrom then storm a group of any Zerg units. If this does become popular then I dunno how Zerg will be able to deal with it. My best bet would be Queens with Ensnare or Spawn Broodling. But now I'm getting way off topic and unrealistic so I better stop before iNferNaL starts flaming me too. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
It's most interesting to see how well a DA build works in a scenario other than a successful maelstrom on mutas. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
that said, i don't know the exact timing but what if instead of building a stargate, the Protoss player goes straight for Templar tech. Once they reach the the Templar archive, they start researching Storm or Mael depending on the urgency of whichever spell. If done this way, the player will actually gain 200 minerals and 150 gas, and will have completed research for both Storm and Mael at the cost of minus 1 sair and 10 seconds as they regularly would with the standard stargate to archives build. With the additional resources, the player could easily afford an HT for a potential Archon creation or for just more storm OR a different path (see later in post) Here's how I got those numbers: + Show Spoiler + stargate = 150 minerals and 150 gas and 70 seconds build time corsair = 150 minerals and 100 gas and 40 second build time maelstorm = 100 minerals and 100 gas and 100 seconds research time Then I just added the cost of the stargate/sair and subtracted the cost of the maelstorm research. I did not factor in the cost of the Citadel and Archive as those would be built anyways in the standard stargate build. Now, going off of what I was saying earlier. You would have a surplus of 200 minerals and 150 gas from not building stargate/sair. Now bear with my noobiness for a second. What if you spent those resources on a *gasp* second Templar Archive. I don't have the exact timing down, but I'm pretty positive that if you build a second Archive you will have the research for both Mael and Storm done at least 30 seconds (most likely more) faster than if you stayed at one Archive. Now, before you attack the idea of a second Archive I want to say, yes, I realize that Archive will be ultimately useless in mid-late game. Additionally, you will no longer have the tech to get easy scouting (ie sair). However, if the Zerg goes hydra/lurker you will have Storms out to counter that; if the Zerg goes mutas, you will have the Mael/Storm/Archon to deal with that. Hence, scouting is less necessary as you would have the necessary tech on the field to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you anyways. Scouting for expos can be done with a simple probe scout. This takes care of the scouting issue (yes or no?). Now, this very very rough build is obviously puts a strong emphasis on templars to counter mutas. As such, stargate tech is not needed ever as scouts/carriers/arbiter are practically useless against Zerg anyways and the mobility advantage mutas have over Archon/HT defense is negated through Mael so corsairs are not necessary for defense (yes or no?). Furthermore, Storm/Mael is essentially the answer to pretty much anything the Zerg can throw at the Protoss (yes or no?). Now perhaps going for dual Archives will make this build an all-in build, I don't know, but I kinda doubt it. I have not tested this and as such I don't know if the timing will work. I am also not very good at Starcraft, but this theory (that's all this is, a theory) seems to work. Either method you chose, whether to go with a second Archive or not, the idea I'm suggesting is to cut out the stargate and corsair entirely to focus on templar tech. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 21 2009 03:19 Holgerius wrote: And how would you scout what the Zerg is doing without Sairs? Well the point is that you wouldn't need to. Sounds blasphemous and noobish I know, but think about it. This early in the game the Zerg will go one of two path, hydra/lurker or mutas (I'm ignoring cheese because you should've caught that with your initial scout at 8). The idea is that by cutting stargate, you have the tech to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you this early in the game regardless of what they do. Hence, no need to see what Zerg is doing, except expo-ing, which can be caught using a simple probe (or zealot) scout. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On October 21 2009 03:25 Ryuu314 wrote: Well the point is that you wouldn't need to. Sounds blasphemous and noobish I know, but think about it. This early in the game the Zerg will go one of two path, hydra/lurker or mutas (I'm ignoring cheese because you should've caught that with your initial scout at 8). The idea is that by cutting stargate, you have the tech to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you this early in the game regardless of what they do. Hence, no need to see what Zerg is doing, except expo-ing, which can be caught using a simple probe (or zealot) scout. .... It's really not that simple. The reason sair is so critical now is because zerg has so many tech options. If they open 2 lair lurk drop and you have no idea... other situations are 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra, and any 1 hatch/lair play. Any decent zerg will get ling speed and deny you from scouting their lack of a natural. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 21 2009 03:30 Nevuk wrote: .... It's really not that simple. The reason sair is so critical now is because zerg has so many tech options. If they open 2 lair lurk drop and you have no idea... other situations are 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra, and any 1 hatch/lair play. Any decent zerg will get ling speed and deny you from scouting their lack of a natural. I see what your point, but my question is wouldn't you be able to defend against the 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra and 1 hatch/lair with HTs and Mael. I mean, if they go 3 hatch hydra you need HT with storm to counter that, which you will have. If they go 2 hatch mutas, you use Mael to counter that. If they try to drop, you can Mael the ovies before they drop to prevent it long enough to get a solid defense. Of course, that'd require you to have a solid knowledge of your base perimeters, but you should be getting that anyways. I suppose one disadvantage to doing this is that you'd need to be able to react fast, as soon as you see the Zerg approaching. Some ways to do this is to place pylons around the edge of your base so that when you see the telltale ovie or muta you can get a DA there to mael them to buy you time to bring over your defenses. The idea I'm proposing relies on the DA to buy you time to allow your slow HTs to get in place to defend whatever the Zerg throws at you. I understand fully well that reacting is pretty much never good for solid SC play and acting is much better. However, I'm just suggesting an idea for how DA tech could be more fully used as a delaying technique that will transition into the OPs idea of having lots of DAs at full energy for mid-late game. That said, I do see your point about speedlings denying ground scouting of expos. Of course, you could always just delay the stargate and get a sair after you get the templar tech and units out to scout. In other words, the sair scout would be there, just delayed. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On October 21 2009 03:46 Ryuu314 wrote: I see what your point, but my question is wouldn't you be able to defend against the 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra and 1 hatch/lair with HTs and Mael. I mean, if they go 3 hatch hydra you need HT with storm to counter that, which you will have. If they go 2 hatch mutas, you use Mael to counter that. If they try to drop, you can Mael the ovies before they drop to prevent it long enough to get a solid defense. Of course, that'd require you to have a solid knowledge of your base perimeters, but you should be getting that anyways. I suppose one disadvantage to doing this is that you'd need to be able to react fast, as soon as you see the Zerg approaching. Some ways to do this is to place pylons around the edge of your base so that when you see the telltale ovie or muta you can get a DA there to mael them to buy you time to bring over your defenses. The idea I'm proposing relies on the DA to buy you time to allow your slow HTs to get in place to defend whatever the Zerg throws at you. I understand fully well that reacting is pretty much never good for solid SC play and acting is much better. However, I'm just suggesting an idea for how DA tech could be more fully used as a delaying technique that will transition into the OPs idea of having lots of DAs at full energy for mid-late game. That said, I do see your point about speedlings denying ground scouting of expos. Of course, you could always just delay the stargate and get a sair after you get the templar tech and units out to scout. In other words, the sair scout would be there, just delayed. Mael won't be done in time for 2 hatch mutas. In fact, sairs aren't done in time for two hatch mutas, you have to cannon up or open with archons. Same goes for lurk, the only difference is the cannon placement and having to open robo /goon instead of temp tech. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On October 21 2009 03:46 Ryuu314 wrote: I see what your point, but my question is wouldn't you be able to defend against the 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra and 1 hatch/lair with HTs and Mael. I mean, if they go 3 hatch hydra you need HT with storm to counter that, which you will have. If they go 2 hatch mutas, you use Mael to counter that. If they try to drop, you can Mael the ovies before they drop to prevent it long enough to get a solid defense. Of course, that'd require you to have a solid knowledge of your base perimeters, but you should be getting that anyways. I suppose one disadvantage to doing this is that you'd need to be able to react fast, as soon as you see the Zerg approaching. Some ways to do this is to place pylons around the edge of your base so that when you see the telltale ovie or muta you can get a DA there to mael them to buy you time to bring over your defenses. The idea I'm proposing relies on the DA to buy you time to allow your slow HTs to get in place to defend whatever the Zerg throws at you. I understand fully well that reacting is pretty much never good for solid SC play and acting is much better. However, I'm just suggesting an idea for how DA tech could be more fully used as a delaying technique that will transition into the OPs idea of having lots of DAs at full energy for mid-late game. That said, I do see your point about speedlings denying ground scouting of expos. Of course, you could always just delay the stargate and get a sair after you get the templar tech and units out to scout. In other words, the sair scout would be there, just delayed. The ideas you are posing for maelstrom with storm encourage defensive play, which is discouraged in high level level play. Lack of aggression leads to an over expanding zerg that can just consume the map because you're too focused on stopping everything. The build needs to be agile and dynamic, not defensive and rigid. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
I don't think you gain enough to make it worth the cost of not having DT sair available for defense/harass/scouting. You'll leave yourself very vulnerable until your researches finish or you acquire the neccessary energy. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On October 20 2009 14:24 Hapahauli wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104032 Day[9]'s doing a live stream analysis of the Bisu vs Shine game at 11 PST, so it might be of interest to the thread for some people to watch it. That game's the perfect example as to why making a bajillion Corsairs did very little to help. A DA would've shut down the Muta harass and let Bisu get on the offensive. Probably would've saved him a lot of money too. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 21 2009 04:58 Cloak wrote: That game's the perfect example as to why making a bajillion Corsairs did very little to help. A DA would've shut down the Muta harass and let Bisu get on the offensive. Probably would've saved him a lot of money too. As Day[9] said, the muta harrass wasn't what killed him. It didn't harm him very much. Bisu went for a much earlier 3rd base than usual, most likely because of the map. The third on this map is very easy to defend. A DA build might have worked too, because you still make some corsairs and initially have DTs out, but I don't know if maelstrom would have been ready so early. You should at least have to wait for maelstrom to be ready before you can take your third if you see that the zerg gets mutas (which Bisu saw). On the other hand the build from that game probably doesn't work too well if the 3rd base is less secure, while a DA build would be stronger in that case because it has a stronger ground army. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On October 21 2009 06:47 spinesheath wrote: As Day[9] said, the muta harrass wasn't what killed him. It didn't harm him very much. Bisu went for a much earlier 3rd base than usual, most likely because of the map. The third on this map is very easy to defend. A DA build might have worked too, because you still make some corsairs and initially have DTs out, but I don't know if maelstrom would have been ready so early. You should at least have to wait for maelstrom to be ready before you can take your third if you see that the zerg gets mutas (which Bisu saw). On the other hand the build from that game probably doesn't work too well if the 3rd base is less secure, while a DA build would be stronger in that case because it has a stronger ground army. Well, the Mutas did their part by keeping Bisu contained and softening the Zealots up. Had he got a legitimate push timing before the Hydras got pumped out, there would've been some serious economic damage. Also, in the time it takes to make 6-7 Corsairs, you can have your first Maelstrom ready. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 20 2009 22:48 spinesheath wrote: Now I wonder if you actually read my post. I asked you to tell me where you mentioned the countering issue. I am quite sure I covered all the relevant things, but if you can point me towards a few of those many details I omitted, feel free to tell me. So far the ONLY disadvantage you were able to point out was that they are not as good at defending muta backstabs. This can be dealt with fairly well by not moving out too far until your bases are defended appropriately. We are not talking about beating mutalisks and their mobility. We are talking about keeping enough HTs alive to stand a chance against hydra/lurk/ling. Muta backstabs aren't extremely dangerous at that point of the game anymore because you should have a few cannons at every base (regardless of sair count - you'll be out of probes before your corsairs can defend if you are greedy), and you should be producing a healthy number of goon/ht, and you should have 1-2 corsairs. These units are enough to keep the damage low, and the money the zerg spent on mutas will be missing on the field, without having sniped any HTs. Oh and in that long post I didn't say anything that I haven't said before. So my answers have always been "somewhat decent". I don't exactly know where I mentioned the countering issue, but I sure did. And its the main issue. Koreans with really good muta micro SHIT on any sort of defence that is not a corsair. I'm not kidding about this. It is frustrating sometimes. Even Archons are useless against them. 11 stacked mutas shit on 3 cannons as if they're nothing. 4-5 is what you need if its cannons alone who have to do the job. You'd need 2 cannons at maximum to defend from muta+scourge if you have some sairs. Your solution is "to not move out before muta backstabs aren't extremely dangerous anymore" - hey, look at it, this is what I was trying to tell you all the time - just for the sairs. If you have to make a lot of cannons you lose timing as well. So basically DA or Sair doesn't really seem to make a big difference - Mutas still make you stay in your base. And that's most Zerg can expect of his mutas to do usually, to buy him time to continue expanding, since a good protoss just should not go out vs 11 mutas without archon/goon/sair backup. Or a DA as you suggest - however as you admitted you will need additional cannon defence at home. It is ALL about beating mutalisks and their mobility, because that's what you said the DA is supposed to do. For example Zerg can just always visit your main a few times to snipe spawning templars every once in a while if you're going for DA and he's at the front. Doesn't happen that easily with sairs flying around. Please tell me, what is the strenght of mutalisks if not their mobility? Why do you think everyone makes a lot of sairs once they're on the field? They can not only snipe templars that spawn, not only harass your mineral line, but also keep you from expanding and just the fact that they're on the map will give the Zerg a lot of additional time. It really is NOT that easy as you think, sure MAYBE the DA can work if you do several other things as you said - but then again it won't really make much of a difference either - because you just cannot go out early on vs Mutalisks even if you have a DA. And that's basically what the main problem is about. On October 21 2009 01:50 chekyosikz wrote: iNferNaL needs to give up. I've been lurking in this thread since the start and his posts have little (typically nothing) to do with the actual discussion. spinesheath brings up a lot of valid points that iNferNaL dodges and instead responds with personal attacks. iNferNaL, please just leave it at "progamers and maps suck for PvZ. P.S. - I'm better than all of you" and go on to another thread. Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here. Even tho I didn't say that as specifically. It's just what you assume. If you don't want to take my knowledge as a help, that's your problem. I'm not sharing it because I'm "uh so cocky" - if so I would keep it to myself.  On topic, I think that the DA is a great idea and I've been testing it out recently. Being a slower player (only ~150 apm) I often neglect to scout with sairs in favor of macroing and hotkeying/positioning units. Also, I find that most of the time it is difficult to deal with muta sniping because it happens so quickly that one of my HTs will typically be dead/in the process of dying as I begin to react to the 'under attack' alert. This is why I choose to give it a shot. So basically you just reversed what you said above. I wrote SEVERAL TIMES that DA can be a good alternative for somebody who is too slow to use corsairs proper. But believe me, DA won't save your ass from mutas as well if you're playing a good Zerg. I'm hoping to meet up with a friend or meet a cool guy on bnet that will help me test the effectiveness. If I get a good replay of this build order being used (win or lose) against a HT-sniping Zerg I will upload it for sure. And that would be the ultimate proof about how good or bad it is for sure... I think this is a great innovation for PvZ and if you play any Micro maps then you know how much it rapes to maelstrom then storm a group of any Zerg units. If this does become popular then I dunno how Zerg will be able to deal with it. My best bet would be Queens with Ensnare or Spawn Broodling. But now I'm getting way off topic and unrealistic so I better stop before iNferNaL starts flaming me too. In a micro map you only have Dark Archon + Templars + 1 group of units to take care about. In a real game this is different. VERY different. If you take argueing as flaming, oh sorry, I hope I didn't burn you then. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On October 21 2009 07:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here. And I can safely say Nal_ra is better at PvZ than you, and he's on our side.  | ||
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