[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 15

ProoM

Lithuania1741 Posts

October 19 2009 19:26 GMT

#281

On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote:
If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.

its better to melee storm on 20 of them rather to mind control 6...

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

October 19 2009 19:39 GMT

#282

Fine. Let's take a step back and look at the options:

Toss has problems against zerg lately. On almost all maps, and many standard games are lost in the same way, which is mutas sniping HTs and hydra/lurk/ling armies rolling over the powerless toss army. This has been addressed as an issue by nal_ra, so I guess we can take that as granted. (If you don't agree on that, leave here. This is the basis of this thread.)

We were arguing if the DA is a viable option to deal with this issue.
Our results were: With the proper bo, the DA fits in seamlessly at the cost of 100/100 to 350/300. HT sniping is denied perfectly. The timing has been shown to work well, storm before maelstrom makes it possible to deal with anything before the timing in question appropriately. The DA has been shown to be useful in midgame battles, and the DA has been shown to be very useful in lategame. Microing the DA might have been somewhat new to those players, but their success at using DAs shows that it is not extremely hard.
Conclusion: DAs are worth their money and they are playable with some practice.

You say that making 3 additional corsairs to a total of 5 and scouting better is the way to go, and DAs are way inferior than that. It is easy to see that 3 corsairs always cost more than 1 DA. It is also clear that the zerg has higher chances of sniping HTs when you are using corsairs, smply because corsairs don't stop mutas immediately. The corsair has its uses throughout the game, but they are mostly harrassment and don't supplement your army strength, assuming that major battles are fought against hydra/lurk/ling, as mutas are suicided to snipe HTs prior to the battle. Scouting better requires you to constantly check back on both your scouting corsair AND your main army. Evading scourge, mutas, hydras and spores is very micro- and multitasking-intensive, certainly more than casting maelstrom on mutas/hydras. We barely see a pro scouting like that, and even in the rare case it always is during an otherwise calm time.
Conclusion: Corsairs might work, but it requires a lot of attention and isn't as effective for this purpose. Even if that wasn't true, it wouldn't take away from the viability of the DA.

Now since I obviously never address your posts:
(THIS IS LONG)
+ Show Spoiler +

On October 14 2009 04:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
If you want to see why Dark Archons suck go watch JangBi vs RorO.
And yes, Roro was aware of the DA.

I addressed that. Corsairs have failed more often than DAs. That doesn't mean they suck, though.

On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Why is this topic still here?
Sair >>>>>>>>>> Dark Archon.
Make 4 sairs and you're save against mutas if you use them correctly.
IMO the only big problem recently is that you CANT SCOUT ALL THE TIME with sair if you dont have 350 apm means the muta switch will be scouted too late or not at all.

This is a point for the DA. It doesn't rely on perfect scouting.

On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Zerg also has the possibility of not going mutas at all - and 2 storms + 1 DA is just not enough vs massive hydra->lurker follow up.
Remember zerg can have up to 50 Hydra + 12 muta or 60-70 Hydra OR 45 hydra+5-10 lurkers until the most "big" pushes happen.
Means 2-3 or 4-5 templars make quite SOME difference.

Since corsairs don't help against hydras/lurkers at all, but still cost as much gas as a DA, this is a point for the DA.

On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
The whole DA idea is shit because its _JUST NOT POSSIBLE TIMINGWISE_ - sure if you scout muta and get Maelstorm _FIRST_ it will be on time to possibly maelstorm all the mutas if the Zerg is careless.
Problem: IF you do Psi first, you do NOT have maelstorm on time if Zerg goes for muta right after the 5 hatch start + ~5-8 hydra to defend.
IF you do maelstorm first you won't have Psi ready when Mutas arrive -> you'd need an Archon to kill them. Means you have not 2 temps but 4 temps less.

This refers to a different timing of mutas, which can be dealt with just as usual because no investment in DA tech has been made at the time this has been scouted.

On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
You speak about cost effectiveness? EVERY PROTOSS BUILD REQUIRES 1-2 SAIRS.
MAKE FUCKING SAIR NUMBER 3 4 AND 5 IF YOU SCOUT MUTAS....?!?!

Maths.

On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Tbh this whole fucking DA discussion is obsolote and just a "oh I'm too bad to use my corsairs proper" thing if you ask me.
Yes, I am too bad to use my corsairs to the fullest extent as well. But at least I do realize that's my fault and not "me doing the wrong builds"...
Really, it can be good for slow 130-160 apm'ish players (someone said LZ does it - he for example isn't really the fastest player)

Obviously even progamers have troube using their corsairs "properly". Time for alternatives.

On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Tbh _IF_ you get Dark Archons then do it like LZ does - gamble and don't get corsairs at all but rather 1-2 cannons per base.
Then it is IS possible to have storm + MS before Mutas.
With sair tech it ISN'T ! ! <-- can't repeat this enough.
DA tech = 300 gas and 350 minerals.
3 more sairs than the 1-2 you already made = 300 gas and 450 minerals + no additional upgrade required etc blablablabla.
Go figure.

Maths. Also again refers to a different timing.

On October 17 2009 23:28 iNfeRnaL wrote:
lol.
1-2 good storm + sair splash = goodbye muta.
Remember Zerg is keen on keeping the mutas alive.
Means he wont sacrifice 11 muta for sniping 1-2 temps cuz P just retreats, makes 2-3 new temps and attacks with an even bigger ball.
Wanna do Mutas again as Zerg then?
When P already got goon and archons? Sounds smart.

Edit: Let me point this out even more:
2-3 Templars = 450 gas.
11 Mutas = 1100/1100.
Maths wins.

nal_ra wins.

On October 17 2009 23:50 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Bisu had NO FUCKING CORSAIRS.
Scouting mistake nothing else.
He got surprised by the Mutas and deserved that sniping for not being aware.
Shine played mindgames too, first he used pure hydlurk twice with drop follow up and in 3rd game he went for mutas.

Once again. You do NOT LOSE ALL YOUR TEMPLARS IF YOU HAVE 5 SAIRS AND 4-5 TEMPLARS.
That's just fucking pathetic micro if you do.

Doesn't say anything about the usefulness of DAs.

On October 18 2009 12:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:
xD!

n/c

On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote:
If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance.
If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so...
Maths still same. You lose 300 gas.

So do you if you make 3 more corsairs.

On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry.
A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.-

A good zerg will do that if it is enough to grant him mapcontrol.

On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote:
I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it?
Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ.
Which is what I can tell by experience...

The timing works, unless you are again talking about early mutas.

On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Okay you guys are tiring the fuck out of me.
I stated in previous posts that YOU HAVE TO MAKE 1-2 SAIRS WITH CURRENT P BUILDS ANYWAY.
Thus making 3 more so you have about 4-5 is +300 gas.
PLEASE read what I said.

I don't think I ever calculated with more than 300 gas on sairs.

On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Again: READ WHAT I SAID - I'll repeat it, one last time and slowly.
If you trade all your mutalisks to snipe 2-3 templars (2-3 is all you get if there is massive sairs + good storms, AGAIN!!!) SUCKS.

2-3 lost HTs is more than 1 storm on mutas after maelstrom. Possibly even with reduced mana on the surviving HTs. Good storms are harder to pull off than a simple maelstrom. Especially since your own units get in the way and storm casting requires anticipation, whereas maelstrom does not.

On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Of course I know if you can trade 11 mutas for like 6-7 Templars (Bisu vs Shine, Hyuk vs Stork) then OBVIOUSLY protoss loses the game.
If those 4 Templars are all you have and you'll lose them, that's fucking bad news obviously.
But really, if you lose all your templars ... if you have psi and sairs... YOUR FAULT, can't repeat it often enough.
Point is BOTH Stork and Bisu were surprised by the muta switch because they did not fucking scout it and have ZERO protection (atleast that was the case in Bisu's game) except 3-4 Dragoons for his Templars...
OF COURSE this is a good trade for Zerg then.
However you shouldn't let this sort of conduct happen.
Proper scouting = thx.

Doesn't take away from the viablility of the DA.

On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Koreasilver: I just watched the Stork/Hyuk part u highlighted.
You don't seem to get WHAT I SAID not vice versa.
Tell me, where's the corsairs protecting those Temps?
RIGHT. NO WHERE.
Even I could have killed those Templars with mutalisks.
Obviously sniping is fucking easy if P has no corsairs.

Obviously not relevant.

On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Edit2: Spinesheath: Denying the protoss' 3rd base is a stupid thing to achieve, cause most protoss go for heavy 7-8 gate macro first up anyway cause you can NOT take a too early 3rd against those kind builds Zerg is playing nowadays.
Which is basically one of the core weaknesses of protoss right now.

This is the current metagame. If it is stupid, all pro toss and zerg gamers might be retarded, who knows...

On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Koreasilver: I know what Nalra was talking about and I understand what you are trying to say.
If you just wanted to show me the VOD cuz Ra was saying it at that point - I'm not Korean thus I cannot understand what he is talking and it makes no sense.
If you want to prove my statement wrong please search me a VOD where a non BackHo-Protoss loses all his 5 Templars even tho he has cannons+5 Sair+whatever guarding them.
However it depends a lot on which situation it is. You can't just provide a quote and exclude the metagame situation they were talking about because what Ra said is way to specific to be something "general".
Ra said its a deciding factor - which it is - but it really depends a lot WHERE your force is. Of course if you are in front of Zerg and lose all your 5 templars being surrounded by 5-6 group of hydras its game over.
But then again: You don't lose 6-7 templars which you should have at this time when you've got 5 sairs to cover them - which is my main point.
Yes muta suicide CAN be worth it in the situation I stated above, however it is NOT if P is still close to home etc - now you tell me again blabla surprising mutas - AND GUESS WHAT - I'll counter with "scouting" once again.

Be it right or wrong, obviously this is the critical point in current pvz. Doesn't touch the DA.

On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote:
How do you scout on good level? Have 350 apm alive and know how to dodge scourge. Sairs have almost same speed and due to spinning the angles you can ALWAYS dodge the scourge.
Which is why I said good scouting is fucking hard as hell but it is neccessary and requires a shitload of apm.
See BeSt vs FireFist for a nice example, for once Best was playing a nice PvZ - but the main point is his scouting was absolutely stunning, he knew EVERYTHING.
That is what I do understand as "scouting".
You CAN have constant vision of what's going on at the Zerg's base - if you're good enough.
Also you will not move out without 1-2 archon + goon + 5 sairs + HT if you scout the mutas.
Now tell me how stupid you have to be to still lose all your templars if you scouted everything...?
Ofc it delays the timing of the P but one thing hasn't changed yet: PvZ from P pov is ALL ABOUT SCOUTING.

If progamers can improve their scouting micro that much, they can also improve their main army micro so much that they can use DAs.

On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote:
If P always has the unitcombo, techs at the timings he will need them etc pp he will NOT lose the game except he's mechanically much much much much worse than his opponent.

He loses the most important units at important timings. HTs when the zerg is about to take full amp control and mass expansions unless pressured.

On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Btw: Ever thought about hurting the Zerg before he even gets to the mutalisk switch?
Zerg needs to have a very nice economy to be able to afford muta + hydra lurk follow up (else its just muta + hydra = you turtle and let your superior economy do the job) - see Jaedong vs Stork on HBR for example - Stork did an relatively early 2 dark templar drop and did hurt Jaedong's eco so much that he just had no choice but to hydra lurk only with his crippled economy because else he would had no chance to defend anymore.
A properly timed zealot attack that sniped drones (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) can do the same effect, however, if you do waste your Zealots it will only give you time to cannon up + increase sair count + make an archon - because if he goes muta first its even easier to defend.
IMO its harder to stop muta's if Z went for 1-2 group hyd first - but if he does you have pretty much a lot of possible room for harass...
Please don't tell me about scourges >>> drop, I know the build, I know it is risky, but if you never take a risk in this game you never succeed. Zerg makes like average of 2 pair scourges against the sairs. Means you can still use your sairs to lure scourge away and still get the drop done etc.
And if you damage Zerg's eco it always means he has to sacrifice something - either the muta timing - or defense - or his 4th base. Basically he has to choose something to go "all out" on. Yes Zerg can recover from eco damage, I know. But really, if you have this kind of eco advantage you can just continue to keep on massing before you move out with a ball that doesn't even care about things like 11 mutalisks anymore.

You said yourself that I should better ignore this part.

On October 19 2009 17:02 iNfeRnaL wrote:
See guy, that's what I'm trying to explain you since I don't know how many pages.
Good storms mean they're set on mutas BEFORE they're over your templars.
It means that you spread some storms around you and mutas get hurt no matter WHERE they dodge.
It means that you use corsair to lure him into a position where you can snipe more nicely.
Sorry dude, nothing personal, but if you don't know how to storm proper you'll die to nicely microed mass hydra as well, doesn't even need mutas then.

You can just as well maelstrom the mutas before they're near your templars. You only need one storm afterwards. And I mentioned that you only got 1 storm (about 2 hits = 28 dmg) and after that the zerg is above your HTs, nothing you can do about that.

On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Nice how you ignore the whole of my post and go ride on the "btw" which was an alternative.
It's kinda pointless to discuss with you, because you know everything better than persons 10x as skilled as you and you're too small minded to accept any other opinion but yours.
Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons?
Because dark archons are so much better, yea you're right. (LOL)

So far I don't see any decent arguments why 3 more corsairs are so much better than a DA. I am open minded enough to consider your arguments, though, or else I wouldn't bother.

On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote:
@ that kid who was trying to bash me that I don't have perfect sair control or whatever: Read my previous posts, I stated a LOT of times that I do NOT have 350 apm that would be needed to do that and that I am obviously not good enough to do perfectly what I said.
But until a certain degree, I guess I can, because I don't die to muta switches if the Zerg isn't 3x as good as me anyway.

It has been shown that DAs can be used effectively with way less APM. I say CAN. Corsairs obviously don't guarantee victory, and neither does a DA.

On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote:
So Ra said you should just get a Dark Archon instead of Corsairs yea?

I never said that. He said that HT sniping is worth it even if you lose your mutas, and you said the opposite. Check back further above.

On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Lol. You're funny at argumentating. That whole post above is once again picking what you could possibly use "against" me and ignoring any arguments.
You're not talking about the game itself, you're just trolling about how wrong I would be and how right you are.

I don't think I have to adress everything that is not relevant.

On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote:
NO, I wasn't the one who said that Dark Archons are too apm intensive either btw. I said they're immobile, you'll still need a lot of cannons at your mainbase + nat else you just get countered once you move out with your DA. Just proves again how much of my posts you actually read.
I didn't say all the good players are bad at scouting either btw, only thing I said was that Bisu scouted wrong vs Shine.

Well, so sorry that I mixed you up with someone else there.
Now the counter actually is an issue. Care to point me towards the post where you talked about that? This one really depends on scouting and corsairs would indeed be back faster to defend. Obviously only against mutas and drops, but they can't stop drops on their own. But even normal corsair heavy builds include cannons at main + natural, if you are thinking about that one game where mutas killed most of the toss' probes: the toss was very greedy. 2 cans, 2 retreating corsairs and newly produced units might have been enough to defend against this appropriately, who knows.

On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Why you're always trying to falsify what I said?
It's just boring me.
Read what I am saying and answer to it or just don't answer me at all.

You use Nal_rA as an example to counter me, when my arguments are based on Bisu/Stork/Violet/Movie 's etc playstyles. Makes sense.

I only used what nal_ra said to assure that HT sniping is effective even if the mutas die.

On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Again, let me repeat this: give me one simple and viable answer as for why progamers do rather use corsair instead of dark archon?

It takes time to refine a new build. They are not used to DAs. They simply haven't yet. It took ages until the Arbiter was introduced into standard pvt, even though it is such a useful unit. Valkyries were largely unused until a while ago too. The vult opening against zerg is strong. All those builds were similarly strong 1 year before they were introduced, but they simply didn't get so much attention.

On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Oh and sorry if the ratio of DA seen in PvZ increased to 0,1% instead of 0,00001% because some desperate (and very bad, compared to their other matchups) protoss users are trying something weird at imbalanced maps.

It's at least 2% (as a safe bet), if I would have to guess I would say 5-10%.

On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Will continue to argue with others further, however not with you. An argument always requires both participants to at least listen to each other, and you are clearly not doing it at all. (Even tho it is obviously reading in this case, it's just a saying obviously.)

Fine. Do what you want.

On October 20 2009 03:03 iNfeRnaL wrote:
M A P S .
ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg.
It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using.
Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now.

I would double check that statement about buildorders (including muta snipes/attack timings). Zerg play was refined while toss play has largely stagnated, with slight variations and some cheesy builds here and there.

Excuse my short answers, this took quite some time anyways.

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

October 19 2009 20:09 GMT

#283

On October 20 2009 03:03 iNfeRnaL wrote:

Show nested quote +

M A P S .
ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg.
It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using.
Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now.

Maps has a lot to do with it, yes, I'm not arguing against that. But are you suggesting that Protoss players shouldn't adapt to the new maps? Are you saying they should keep doing the same thing and continue to get raped?

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

October 19 2009 20:11 GMT

#284

On October 20 2009 03:03 iNfeRnaL wrote:

Show nested quote +

...or just take a quick look at Heartbreak Ridge. It was once balanced for PvZ, and even favored Toss for a while. Now, Zerg has a 60% win ratio, and all signs point to the ratio rising.

I understand that you're somewhat "passionate" about the issue, but come on... seriously?

SkelA

Macedonia13017 Posts

October 19 2009 20:32 GMT

#285

I totaly agree with Infernal view on DA and sair usage. I still think sairs(like 4-5) are much better because you go stargate like 100% of FE games . Maybe if toss invent some bo timing without teching into stargate l would be much cost effective to use DA.

Lately pvz is FE into really fast stargate and making a sair or 2 and you go to scout and woops you see 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hidra ( what a surprize! ) and stop making sairs thats 450 minerals 350 gas waisted for nothing because 5 hatch hidra totaly counter sairs with scourge. So why going stargate at all then?!

For example im playing z and i see toss is going DA no way i would spend my money on 10 muta so he could kill it for nothing better mass pure hydra/lurk/ling. Only mindless zergs would fly into normal toss army goon zeal ht supported with DA to try to snipe hts which is 100% fail.

So as you see its really risky to make DA in like early/mid game because if you play any nonretarded zerg if he see DA he wont be switching to muta to snipe hts.

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

October 19 2009 21:06 GMT

#286

On October 20 2009 05:32 SkelA wrote:
For example im playing z and i see toss is going DA no way i would spend my money on 10 muta so he could kill it for nothing better mass pure hydra/lurk/ling. Only mindless zergs would fly into normal toss army goon zeal ht supported with DA to try to snipe hts which is 100% fail.

And there you go; DA is the solution to HT sniping. You said it yourself.

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

October 19 2009 21:12 GMT

#287

On October 20 2009 05:32 SkelA wrote:
I totaly agree with Infernal view on DA and sair usage. I still think sairs(like 4-5) are much better because you go stargate like 100% of FE games . Maybe if toss invent some bo timing without teching into stargate l would be much cost effective to use DA.

Lately pvz is FE into really fast stargate and making a sair or 2 and you go to scout and woops you see 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hidra ( what a surprize! ) and stop making sairs thats 450 minerals 350 gas waisted for nothing because 5 hatch hidra totaly counter sairs with scourge. So why going stargate at all then?!

For example im playing z and i see toss is going DA no way i would spend my money on 10 muta so he could kill it for nothing better mass pure hydra/lurk/ling. Only mindless zergs would fly into normal toss army goon zeal ht supported with DA to try to snipe hts which is 100% fail.

So as you see its really risky to make DA in like early/mid game because if you play any nonretarded zerg if he see DA he wont be switching to muta to snipe hts.

You also go Archives like 100% of FE games. That's no reason against DAs.

Stargate is useful for several purposes that can only barely be achieved through other means:
- Clearing any nearby overlords so that your DTs can secure map control until overlord speed is out. This is important because you need just that time to get your macro going and storm researched to be fairly safe from hydra busts.
- Scouting. The first observer costs more gas and takes much longer to build:
Stargate 1050, corsair 600, total 1650 of whatever time unit that is, it's build times as you can read them in a map editor.
Robo: 1200, observatory: 450, observer 600, total 2250. Plus the observer is slower than the corsair and thus probably won't scout too much as scourge should be out or popping right as the observer comes in.
Speedlots come too late as well, probe scouting is unlikely to succeed at that time.
- helping against early mutas. You usually don't want to get goons at that time, and an archon and 1-2 cannons isn't very safe against good muta micro. Storm isn't ready when 3 hat muta comes in and even then it is unlikely that it is enough without support.

I'm not saying that no corsair builds stand no chance, but you'll have trouble if you play the rest of the build as usual. They are an integral part of the forge fe build as it is played today.

Your money is not wasted: 1-2 overlord kills can be expected, you get scouting information and map control through DTs.

If the zerg does not make any mutas then that's fine. That means that the toss has achieved his goal of keeping his HTs alive. Those storms make his army so much stronger and he also has a few maelstroms to use.
Of course it would be better if the zerg made mutas and totally wasted them into a maelstrom, but it's not necessary. By the way, if you have any unit composition that denies effective HT sniping and the zerg knows it, the zerg won't even try it. Be it DAs, corsairs, archons or goons. You can either allow the zerg to snipe HTs and punish him for spending money on mutas in some way (I couln't imagine anything that would work for this, though), or you can try to deny it in which case the zerg won't even try it.
Then it comes down to which of the unit combinations that you chose that denies HT snipe is the most effective against the zerg ground army.
Corsairs - not really effective against ground armies, unless you are going any corsair heavy build which we are not discussing.
Archons - suck against hydra/lurk, and cost way too much gas (a single one does nothing), which reduces your HT count.
Goons - you'll need them in very large numbers and even then they need quite some time to kill off mutas. Large numbers of goons are bad for your HT count as well.
a single DA: Cheap. Total denial, big stop sign for zerg. Allows the toss to contol the game. Similarly effective against any unit combination the zerg may throw at you.

SkelA

Macedonia13017 Posts

October 19 2009 21:30 GMT

#288

DA works perfect in theory but in actual game is really different especially on progamer lvl.

Untill i see some actual results in using it real competitive game its just good on paper... I still use DA in normal games but in really late game DA is unmatched for his cost and effectivness.

Even if you stop ht sniping that doesnt give you autowin just it prolongs game while zerg is on 4 bases and making 5th and you are 2 bases and just starting 3rd on a map like HBR.... you are still on a disadvantage. and DA wont really help against defensive zerg with lurk hydra ling at all.

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

October 19 2009 22:05 GMT

#289

On October 20 2009 06:30 SkelA wrote:
Even if you stop ht sniping that doesnt give you autowin just it prolongs game while zerg is on 4 bases and making 5th and you are 2 bases and just starting 3rd on a map like HBR.... you are still on a disadvantage. and DA wont really help against defensive zerg with lurk hydra ling at all.

No, you're right; DA doesn't help against Lurk Hydra Ling. You know what does? HT's and Storms. But in order to have those HT's you need the DA to protect them. Losing the HT's gives Zerg an enormous army advantage (pure Goon/Zeal armies get raped) that translates into complete map control so he can secure his 4th and prevent you from taking your third. From there on it's just downhill.

0neder

United States3733 Posts

October 19 2009 22:08 GMT

#290

Maybe progamers should realize that having a DA is worth sacrificing 25 APM?

Hold-Lurker

United States403 Posts

October 20 2009 00:07 GMT

#291

I just read through this with an unbiased perspective, and have to admit that the case for dark archons is very compelling.

Spinesheath's comparison of the cost of DA vs. additional corsairs seems fair and accurate (as opposed to previous posts in this thread which are solely counting the incremental cost on one side - e.g., I get 3 additional corsairs for no cost, but it's too expensive to get 1 dark archon + maelstrom).

It is more difficult to judge the APM cost, but as many other posts have indicated - the best way to tell would be to persuade a progamer or a very high level foreigner to practice with the DA build. Using corsairs effectively (while doing everything else) is also very high APM, so one would think that would be the trade-off.

kirbyraeg

United States20 Posts

October 20 2009 04:01 GMT

#292

Long time reader, first time poster. I have a question about a potential DA-use build.

The build I was thinking about is the +1 speedzeal/archon 4gate timing attack to heavily attack the zerg when it's doing a non-lurker build (3hatch muta, 3hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra). Could taking an earlier second gas, researching maelstrom, and sending one DA along with the push increase its effectiveness if they opted for faster mutas? The reason I think this might work is because the zerg player might panic and transition straight to mutas if they suspect a +1 speedzeal rush, but by delaying the attack slightly and sending in 1 DA and 3 archons (instead of the standard 2 archons) it can mael the expected mutas and the archons can help deal with the defending muta/ling. I think this would be best if you could somehow convince your opponent that you were doing a +1speedzeal rush then delaying your rush timing to get the DA necessary to stop their muta counter.

Microing the DA and archons is risky, but I think that if the attack were done early enough it could be more effective than the standard 4gate 2archon build. Also, since the gas req is the same (2dts+mael=2hts) you can still tech into the necessary direction, just with slightly fewer minerals to spend on defenses.

Ryuu314

United States12679 Posts

October 20 2009 04:57 GMT

#293

just putting in my 2 cents.
if DAs were created early enough in the game and given time to get mael/energy wouldn't they also complement the HTs storm?
i mean, mael+storm = death for pretty much all zerg units yes?

Hapahauli

United States9305 Posts

October 20 2009 05:24 GMT

#294

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104032

Day[9]'s doing a live stream analysis of the Bisu vs Shine game at 11 PST, so it might be of interest to the thread for some people to watch it.

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

October 20 2009 08:25 GMT

#295

On October 20 2009 13:01 kirbyraeg wrote:
Long time reader, first time poster. I have a question about a potential DA-use build.

The build I was thinking about is the +1 speedzeal/archon 4gate timing attack to heavily attack the zerg when it's doing a non-lurker build (3hatch muta, 3hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra). Could taking an earlier second gas, researching maelstrom, and sending one DA along with the push increase its effectiveness if they opted for faster mutas? The reason I think this might work is because the zerg player might panic and transition straight to mutas if they suspect a +1 speedzeal rush, but by delaying the attack slightly and sending in 1 DA and 3 archons (instead of the standard 2 archons) it can mael the expected mutas and the archons can help deal with the defending muta/ling. I think this would be best if you could somehow convince your opponent that you were doing a +1speedzeal rush then delaying your rush timing to get the DA necessary to stop their muta counter.

Microing the DA and archons is risky, but I think that if the attack were done early enough it could be more effective than the standard 4gate 2archon build. Also, since the gas req is the same (2dts+mael=2hts) you can still tech into the necessary direction, just with slightly fewer minerals to spend on defenses.

Imo the DA fits better into a standard bisu build, but the optimal bo obviously still has to be figured out. But one thing is for sure: You can't have enough energy on a DA] by the time you would want to go out with a speedzeal/archon attack. If you want to have a DA in such an attack, you would have to delay it by quite some time (more precisely: The time it takes to accumulate 50 energy, which should be enough for the zerg to get quite some army up).

wo0py

Netherlands922 Posts

October 20 2009 10:08 GMT

#296

I think Dark Archons are so hard to handle because they don't have an damaging effect on the opponent. (Unlike storm, irridiate or plague)
It would be great to see use of all those lesser used units.

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

October 20 2009 10:43 GMT

#297

Observers and shuttles don't deal damage either, and still they are not so hard to use. Arbiters would be better in most cases if they had no attack, since they would then retreat if attacked by a turret/gol. Stasis is somewhat similar to maelstrom.
Medics don't deal damage, but they help keeping your marined alive. DAs don't deal damage, but they help keeping your HTs alive.

Support units don't have to deal damage to be useful.

iNfeRnaL

Germany1908 Posts

October 20 2009 13:07 GMT

#298

gj spines, finally you did take the time to atleast answer somewhat decently to what I said.
Still you left out a lot of details, and everything I would say is just a repeat of what I already said anyway.
Main point is sairs mobility >> even mutalisks.
Why are mutalisks strong?
Cause they're mobile³.
Even if Z would only use the mutas to make you build 3-4 cannons at natural+main (compared to one or so if you go for sair heavy shit).
I agree that DA _CAN_ be good but... I dunno it just has a lot of disadvantages to me, experiencewise

spinesheath

Germany8679 Posts

October 20 2009 13:48 GMT

#299

Now I wonder if you actually read my post. I asked you to tell me where you mentioned the countering issue.
I am quite sure I covered all the relevant things, but if you can point me towards a few of those many details I omitted, feel free to tell me.

So far the ONLY disadvantage you were able to point out was that they are not as good at defending muta backstabs. This can be dealt with fairly well by not moving out too far until your bases are defended appropriately.
We are not talking about beating mutalisks and their mobility. We are talking about keeping enough HTs alive to stand a chance against hydra/lurk/ling. Muta backstabs aren't extremely dangerous at that point of the game anymore because you should have a few cannons at every base (regardless of sair count - you'll be out of probes before your corsairs can defend if you are greedy), and you should be producing a healthy number of goon/ht, and you should have 1-2 corsairs. These units are enough to keep the damage low, and the money the zerg spent on mutas will be missing on the field, without having sniped any HTs.

Oh and in that long post I didn't say anything that I haven't said before. So my answers have always been "somewhat decent".

Kiarip

United States1835 Posts

October 20 2009 15:31 GMT

#300

On October 20 2009 22:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:
gj spines, finally you did take the time to atleast answer somewhat decently to what I said.
Still you left out a lot of details, and everything I would say is just a repeat of what I already said anyway.
Main point is sairs mobility >> even mutalisks.
Why are mutalisks strong?
Cause they're mobile³.
Even if Z would only use the mutas to make you build 3-4 cannons at natural+main (compared to one or so if you go for sair heavy shit).
I agree that DA _CAN_ be good but... I dunno it just has a lot of disadvantages to me, experiencewise

Corsairs are not that good against muta if there's also scourges unless you're going a very sair heavy build you need cannons at natural and main either way .

DA is there to protect your HTs when you move out. If you try to use corsairs, he clones scourges to your sairs, while coming in with mutas for the templar snipe, there's not much you can do unless you also have a lot of dragoons/archons in your army, which you probably don't since you spent the gas on sairs and ht.

with a DA you can keep your scouting sairs safely at home with your cannons (until you need them), when the mutas come maelstrom + 1 storm + 1 archon = dead muta stack.

how is this not better than getting 3 extra sairs when you generally get dts anyways to scare the zerg into getting overlord speed faster, and etc.

plus DA's have tons of shield and are fast. if you only have 100 energy when the mutas first come, you can maelstrom once, and just send it back to your base, and chances are it will live (unlike a templar which you pretty much just have to fuse after you use up their energy.) So you can reuse the same DA several times for the same purpose.

As for corsairs being more mobile than DA, templars are REALLY immobile, as long as DA is as fast/faster than templars (which it is) it can keep up and do its job just fine.

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