EPTYou're the one that didn't get my post.
[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 14
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
You're the one that didn't get my post. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: Point is BOTH Stork and Bisu were surprised by the muta switch because they did not fucking scout it and have ZERO protection (atleast that was the case in Bisu's game) except 3-4 Dragoons for his Templars... OF COURSE this is a good trade for Zerg then. However you shouldn't let this sort of conduct happen. Proper scouting = thx. I don't understand the scouting part. How do you scout the muta timing? For one thing, PvZ scouting is ridiculously difficult at the pro level, due to ovie > obs and scourge > 1-2 sairs. And even then, it's impossible to tell zerg tech once they have 3 gas up an running. It's one thing to scout zerg going mutas early game when you detect quick 2nd gas. But by the mid-game there's no telltale sign of which tech zerg is going. Especially when you're looking at 3 base fully functional zerg bases. Heck, even if protoss has map hack, they still can't get enough sairs in time before mutas come searching for temps. Any tech the protoss makes has to be in anticipation of zerg tech for it to work. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 19 2009 15:10 Severedevil wrote: It sounds like Protoss needs to make six corsairs so they can scout + shut down muta plays. Is that no longer viable? At least it is more expensive than a DA build. It already is with 5 corsairs. AND it is less effective, as it doesn't deny HT sniping, but only makes it less effective because the mutas can easily get 2-3 HTs before they die against 6 corsairs. And "good storms" don't help you so much if the mutas are above your HTs, so that you would storm your own templars. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
If you just wanted to show me the VOD cuz Ra was saying it at that point - I'm not Korean thus I cannot understand what he is talking and it makes no sense. If you want to prove my statement wrong please search me a VOD where a non BackHo-Protoss loses all his 5 Templars even tho he has cannons+5 Sair+whatever guarding them. However it depends a lot on which situation it is. You can't just provide a quote and exclude the metagame situation they were talking about because what Ra said is way to specific to be something "general". Ra said its a deciding factor - which it is - but it really depends a lot WHERE your force is. Of course if you are in front of Zerg and lose all your 5 templars being surrounded by 5-6 group of hydras its game over. But then again: You don't lose 6-7 templars which you should have at this time when you've got 5 sairs to cover them - which is my main point. Yes muta suicide CAN be worth it in the situation I stated above, however it is NOT if P is still close to home etc - now you tell me again blabla surprising mutas - AND GUESS WHAT - I'll counter with "scouting" once again. How do you scout on good level? Have 350 apm alive and know how to dodge scourge. Sairs have almost same speed and due to spinning the angles you can ALWAYS dodge the scourge. Which is why I said good scouting is fucking hard as hell but it is neccessary and requires a shitload of apm. See BeSt vs FireFist for a nice example, for once Best was playing a nice PvZ - but the main point is his scouting was absolutely stunning, he knew EVERYTHING. That is what I do understand as "scouting". You CAN have constant vision of what's going on at the Zerg's base - if you're good enough. Also you will not move out without 1-2 archon + goon + 5 sairs + HT if you scout the mutas. Now tell me how stupid you have to be to still lose all your templars if you scouted everything...? Ofc it delays the timing of the P but one thing hasn't changed yet: PvZ from P pov is ALL ABOUT SCOUTING. If P always has the unitcombo, techs at the timings he will need them etc pp he will NOT lose the game except he's mechanically much much much much worse than his opponent. Btw: Ever thought about hurting the Zerg before he even gets to the mutalisk switch? Zerg needs to have a very nice economy to be able to afford muta + hydra lurk follow up (else its just muta + hydra = you turtle and let your superior economy do the job) - see Jaedong vs Stork on HBR for example - Stork did an relatively early 2 dark templar drop and did hurt Jaedong's eco so much that he just had no choice but to hydra lurk only with his crippled economy because else he would had no chance to defend anymore. A properly timed zealot attack that sniped drones (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) can do the same effect, however, if you do waste your Zealots it will only give you time to cannon up + increase sair count + make an archon - because if he goes muta first its even easier to defend. IMO its harder to stop muta's if Z went for 1-2 group hyd first - but if he does you have pretty much a lot of possible room for harass... Please don't tell me about scourges >>> drop, I know the build, I know it is risky, but if you never take a risk in this game you never succeed. Zerg makes like average of 2 pair scourges against the sairs. Means you can still use your sairs to lure scourge away and still get the drop done etc. And if you damage Zerg's eco it always means he has to sacrifice something - either the muta timing - or defense - or his 4th base. Basically he has to choose something to go "all out" on. Yes Zerg can recover from eco damage, I know. But really, if you have this kind of eco advantage you can just continue to keep on massing before you move out with a ball that doesn't even care about things like 11 mutalisks anymore. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 19 2009 16:20 spinesheath wrote: And "good storms" don't help you so much if the mutas are above your HTs, so that you would storm your own templars. See guy, that's what I'm trying to explain you since I don't know how many pages. Good storms mean they're set on mutas BEFORE they're over your templars. It means that you spread some storms around you and mutas get hurt no matter WHERE they dodge. It means that you use corsair to lure him into a position where you can snipe more nicely. Sorry dude, nothing personal, but if you don't know how to storm proper you'll die to nicely microed mass hydra as well, doesn't even need mutas then. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Did you notice that mutas only take 2 hits at most if they fly through a storm? That's 28 dmg. The mutas will be at 92HP, snipe the first templar, and from there every storm will damage your own units. So you are basically saying that the best players in the world have awful scouting. If that is the case, it might be good to come up with a build that does not rely to 100% on scouting. Surely, if SC could be played PERFECTLY, gameplay would be completely different. But we have to deal with human limits. Dodging scouge takes the toss a lot of micro, while all the zerg does is attacking the corsair, and once in a while he might intercept a corsair with another pair of scourge. So constantly scouting with sairs takes a huge amount of APM and distracts from your other tasks a lot. Was it you who was saying that microing a DA will make you mess up everything else? You certainly have it worse if you need to scout 24/7. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 19 2009 17:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: See guy, that's what I'm trying to explain you since I don't know how many pages. Good storms mean they're set on mutas BEFORE they're over your templars. It means that you spread some storms around you and mutas get hurt no matter WHERE they dodge. It means that you use corsair to lure him into a position where you can snipe more nicely. Sorry dude, nothing personal, but if you don't know how to storm proper you'll die to nicely microed mass hydra as well, doesn't even need mutas then. I want to see a replay of you doing that my friend... probably you will get the "not enough energy" before you kill 2-3 of his dodging mutas or actually you would die really fast at the lings/hydras due to excessive micro when he just 1a2a3a you and micro his mutas around... @spinesheath ++1 | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
If you have to waste 2-5 storms to minimally damage the muta clump, Zerg still is getting the job done with that sacrifice because you have no more storms. And as said infernal, the muta snipe is worth killing 3-8 high templar. It is not only the physical units that are being killed, but protoss is losing a lot of timing because you have to a) produce more high templar, costing you physical mineral/gas resources b) you must wait additional time for their energy to accumulate Now P loses the timing on where he can move out and pressure the Zerg's army and/or take a third base behind that pressure. Z now has the advantage - in his best case scenario, he snipes your templar with his muta group and keeps 8-11 alive and can continue to snipe templar, and in his worst case scenario he loses all 11 mutalisks but has sniped all your templars. The difference is that, P the storms and templar, which are effective based on time passed in the game due to needing accumulate energy, whereas the Z, even in his worst case scenario of suiciding the entire group, can create an entirely new group of mutalisks, that are not time and energy dependent and are still useable afterwards. And that is all that matters. If your templar are sniped, Z is free to mass hydra/lurker/ling you till your third is gone, your army is gone, or they are at such an advantage that you cannot feasibly recover. That's where the DA comes in, because it prevents the entire timing loss in the P mid-game by completely neutralizing the mutalisks - they cannot even suicide into your templar, and you are then able to take your third as well as move out on the map. | ||
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lavion
Singapore286 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
You could get shuttle speed, but shuttle + support bay + speed upgrade is very expensive, and you also need the robo for producing observers at this time. And a shuttle doesn't help in combat. Remeber that you are currently trying to acquire mapcontrol, not harrass, so a shuttle doesn't help you at all. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
On October 19 2009 23:32 lavion wrote: Honestly i doubt that a metagame shift can be done with just one unit on the battlefield. The way i see it is the DA being another target that can be sniped. wouldnt' storing your HT in shuttles do you better if you are so fearful of getting sniped? A shuttle dies to 2 scourge or 16 muta shots. Also, this is the same as telling a Zerg player to put his Defilers inside Overlords. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote: Ra said its a deciding factor - which it is - but it really depends a lot WHERE your force is. Of course if you are in front of Zerg and lose all your 5 templars being surrounded by 5-6 group of hydras its game over. But then again: You don't lose 6-7 templars which you should have at this time when you've got 5 sairs to cover them - which is my main point. Take into consideration 5 sairs costs you 750/500, which cuts your templar count by 3, your goon count by 1 and zealot count by 6. The mutas only have to kill 2-3 templars at this point. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 19 2009 17:34 spinesheath wrote: You whole talk about DT drop is off topic. We're talking about a mapcontrol based gameplan, not sneaky luck based play that obviously could never be standard due to extremely effective counters aka sunken/overlord/hydra/spore. Did you notice that mutas only take 2 hits at most if they fly through a storm? That's 28 dmg. The mutas will be at 92HP, snipe the first templar, and from there every storm will damage your own units. So you are basically saying that the best players in the world have awful scouting. If that is the case, it might be good to come up with a build that does not rely to 100% on scouting. Surely, if SC could be played PERFECTLY, gameplay would be completely different. But we have to deal with human limits. Dodging scouge takes the toss a lot of micro, while all the zerg does is attacking the corsair, and once in a while he might intercept a corsair with another pair of scourge. So constantly scouting with sairs takes a huge amount of APM and distracts from your other tasks a lot. Was it you who was saying that microing a DA will make you mess up everything else? You certainly have it worse if you need to scout 24/7. Nice how you ignore the whole of my post and go ride on the "btw" which was an alternative. It's kinda pointless to discuss with you, because you know everything better than persons 10x as skilled as you and you're too small minded to accept any other opinion but yours. Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons? Because dark archons are so much better, yea you're right. (LOL) @ that kid who was trying to bash me that I don't have perfect sair control or whatever: Read my previous posts, I stated a LOT of times that I do NOT have 350 apm that would be needed to do that and that I am obviously not good enough to do perfectly what I said. But until a certain degree, I guess I can, because I don't die to muta switches if the Zerg isn't 3x as good as me anyway. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons? Yeah, and right now Protoss progamers are failing miserably against Zerg. Change is needed. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: Nice how you ignore the whole of my post and go ride on the "btw" which was an alternative. It's kinda pointless to discuss with you, because you know everything better than persons 10x as skilled as you and you're too small minded to accept any other opinion but yours. Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons? Because dark archons are so much better, yea you're right. (LOL) @ that kid who was trying to bash me that I don't have perfect sair control or whatever: Read my previous posts, I stated a LOT of times that I do NOT have 350 apm that would be needed to do that and that I am obviously not good enough to do perfectly what I said. But until a certain degree, I guess I can, because I don't die to muta switches if the Zerg isn't 3x as good as me anyway. Seems like you got confused because I didn't address the parts of your post in the same order. My comment about the "btw" part was only the first paragraph. My last paragraph deals with the issue of better scouting, and last time I checked, you didn't cover that in the "btw" part. You know that nal_ra is 100x as skilled as you? Oh and DAs have been used way more than 0.00001% of the time lately. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Lol. You're funny at argumentating. That whole post above is once again picking what you could possibly use "against" me and ignoring any arguments. You're not talking about the game itself, you're just trolling about how wrong I would be and how right you are. NO, I wasn't the one who said that Dark Archons are too apm intensive either btw. I said they're immobile, you'll still need a lot of cannons at your mainbase + nat else you just get countered once you move out with your DA. Just proves again how much of my posts you actually read. I didn't say all the good players are bad at scouting either btw, only thing I said was that Bisu scouted wrong vs Shine. Why you're always trying to falsify what I said? It's just boring me. Read what I am saying and answer to it or just don't answer me at all.  You use Nal_rA as an example to counter me, when my arguments are based on Bisu/Stork/Violet/Movie 's etc playstyles. Makes sense. Again, let me repeat this: give me one simple and viable answer as for why progamers do rather use corsair instead of dark archon? Oh and sorry if the ratio of DA seen in PvZ increased to 0,1% instead of 0,00001% because some desperate (and very bad, compared to their other matchups) protoss users are trying something weird at imbalanced maps. Will continue to argue with others further, however not with you. An argument always requires both participants to at least listen to each other, and you are clearly not doing it at all. (Even tho it is obviously reading in this case, it's just a saying obviously.) | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 20 2009 01:02 Holgerius wrote: Yeah, and right now Protoss progamers are failing miserably against Zerg. Change is needed. M A P S . ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg. It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using. Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On October 19 2009 23:32 lavion wrote: Honestly i doubt that a metagame shift can be done with just one unit on the battlefield. The way i see it is the DA being another target that can be sniped. wouldnt' storing your HT in shuttles do you better if you are so fearful of getting sniped? Trying to snipe a DA with Mutas is like trying to snipe a Carrier with Mutas, that happens to be a lot faster and has an instacast ability to end the shenanigans right there. | ||
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