|
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote:
Why is this topic still here?
Sair >>>>>>>>>> Dark Archon.
Make 4 sairs and you're save against mutas if you use them correctly.
IMO the only big problem recently is that you CANT SCOUT ALL THE TIME with sair if you dont have 350 apm means the muta switch will be scouted too late or not at all.
Zerg also has the possibility of not going mutas at all - and 2 storms + 1 DA is just not enough vs massive hydra->lurker follow up.
Remember zerg can have up to 50 Hydra + 12 muta or 60-70 Hydra OR 45 hydra+5-10 lurkers until the most "big" pushes happen.
Means 2-3 or 4-5 templars make quite SOME difference.
The whole DA idea is shit because its _JUST NOT POSSIBLE TIMINGWISE_ - sure if you scout muta and get Maelstorm _FIRST_ it will be on time to possibly maelstorm all the mutas if the Zerg is careless.
Problem: IF you do Psi first, you do NOT have maelstorm on time if Zerg goes for muta right after the 5 hatch start + ~5-8 hydra to defend.
IF you do maelstorm first you won't have Psi ready when Mutas arrive -> you'd need an Archon to kill them. Means you have not 2 temps but 4 temps less.
You speak about cost effectiveness? EVERY PROTOSS BUILD REQUIRES 1-2 SAIRS.
MAKE FUCKING SAIR NUMBER 3 4 AND 5 IF YOU SCOUT MUTAS....?!?!
Tbh this whole fucking DA discussion is obsolote and just a "oh I'm too bad to use my corsairs proper" thing if you ask me.
Yes, I am too bad to use my corsairs to the fullest extent as well. But at least I do realize that's my fault and not "me doing the wrong builds"...
Really, it can be good for slow 130-160 apm'ish players (someone said LZ does it - he for example isn't really the fastest player)
Tbh _IF_ you get Dark Archons then do it like LZ does - gamble and don't get corsairs at all but rather 1-2 cannons per base.
Then it is IS possible to have storm + MS before Mutas.
With sair tech it ISN'T ! ! <-- can't repeat this enough.
DA tech = 300 gas and 350 minerals.
3 more sairs than the 1-2 you already made = 300 gas and 450 minerals + no additional upgrade required etc blablablabla.
Go figure.
Once again: We are NOT talking about muta right after 5 hatch. All your talk about timing is IRRELEVANT, as you are thinking about a much earlier timing.
1 DA = less than 2 sairs, so if you make 3 additional sairs, you can just as well get maelstrom and a DA from 2 fresh and newly created DTs. Since we are trying to recycle out DTs, the DA costs only as much as 1 or 2 additional corsairs.
As it has been said, corsairs are not half as effective in protecting your HTs as DAs are. The zerg makes those mutas for only one purpose, which is HT sniping. He is fine if the mutas don't live past that. By the time 4-5 sairs (the absolute maximum you could afford if you say a DA would be too expensive and you are extending a build that has 1-2 corsairs) have killed 9 mutas, the zerg will have sniped at least 2 HTs, probably more. A DA casts mealstrom and the HTs are IMMEDIATELY SAFE. HT sniping is completly denied. So for that purpose:
DA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Corsairs.
300 gas and 450 minerals is MORE than 300 gas and 350 minerals, just in case you didn't notice that when you made your post. And that is the WORST CASE cost of a DA.
Additionally the corsairs require another pylon, while we make the DA from 2 existing DTs. And even if we don't, 4 supply is less than 6 or 8.
A DA doesn't have to stand in the front row to cast maelstrom (range 10 is huge), and doesn't have to stay in place to keep casting maelstrom. Corsairs are open to scourge attacks and have to stay in place while attacking the mutas. 5 corsairs are not enough to instantly kill decently microed scourge and in the meanwhile protect HTs from mutas.
On October 17 2009 23:47 iamtt1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 23:36 Jadyks wrote:
using storm to kill muta harass means you're also storming your own units. Doesn't make any fucking sense. Plus it's way too easy to dodge storm with mutas, so you're wasting all the storms that could be spent on hydras.
Zerg doesn't even have to keep the mutas alive to be cost effective! 2-3 templars means the protoss ground army will always get overrun, so it's worth it even if the zerg loses every last muta!
Goons do not do shit to mutas and mutas can out-micro archons.
Let me point this out even more:
The current solution of "Storm your own units and hope your sairs chase 'em off" is sloppy, inefficient, and is the reason for the current zerg domination over protoss. Come up with a new idea. if ur gonna storm muts ur obviously going to do it smartly, ur not just going to storm them while their flying around.. u attack/micro with ur sairs and while theyre in 1 position u storm them
If you can storm smartly, the zerg can attack smartly too. Mutas DON'T stop. It's called moving shot. If you ever see a zerg player let his mutas sit in one place with an enemy around, it's because of either of these:
1) no threat to the mutas expected
2) the mutas have fulfilled their purpose
3) the zerg is a newb
4) the toss can only use storm on the mutas and doing that would hurt the toss more then the zerg (e.g. over worker line or over X HTs).
On October 17 2009 23:50 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 23:41 koreasilver wrote:
Yeah, in the Shine vs Bisu on HBR game, Bisu's storms did shit all to stop Shine's mutalisks from massacring his templars, and Bisu had quite a few dragoons as well. Nowadays, it's almost as if losing your mutalisks is worth it if you kill all the templars, because without templars the protoss army will die to hydras. The same thing happened in Calm's recent ZvP on HBR as well. Calm was really behind and he just went pure hydra with templar snipes and he won. The protoss made some mistakes too by throwing units instead of solidifying his advantage, but still. I don't remember there being a lot of corsairs around when the mutalisk sniper squads killed the templars though, and that might be a big reason why the mutalisks were able to do their job properly. Bisu had NO FUCKING CORSAIRS. Scouting mistake nothing else. He got surprised by the Mutas and deserved that sniping for not being aware. Shine played mindgames too, first he used pure hydlurk twice with drop follow up and in 3rd game he went for mutas. Once again. You do NOT LOSE ALL YOUR TEMPLARS IF YOU HAVE 5 SAIRS AND 4-5 TEMPLARS. That's just fucking pathetic micro if you do.
You do NOT LOSE A SINGLE TEMPLAR if you have 2 corsairs, 1 DA and 4-5 templars.
Besides, the surviving HTs in your sair scenario would mostly have less or no energy, while in the DA scenario, you use 2 storms at most to clear the maelstromed mutas.
|
So, can some high level Protoss please go out on Iccup, try this out and post replays? I would like to see how this works out.
|
Don't use DAs with less than 3 bases. Your economy has to be devoted to more versatile units. Breaking a lurker contain can be difficult even if you transition seamlessly into the optimal dragoon, HT, observer army. If you've spent money on DAs the game is over for you.
Mass hydralisk is somewhat more manageable against most zerg opponents, but nonetheless if you've invested valuable templar archives time into researching maelstrom, and you've used your earliest vespene to produce HTs, you'll probably find yourself at an insurmountable disadvantage against mass hydras as your zealots will need psi storm support.
DAs can only be used early game against mutalisk, but because zerg's tech and the nature of larva production are conducive to quick tech switches and unpredictable play (especially at higher levels), using DAs is not a +EV strategy. Unfortunately whatever expected value that you gain from anticipating mutalisk is more than lost by the cost of having to begin your tech very early because it takes so long to create an archives, build at least 2 DTs, research maelstrom, morph a DA, and get 100 energy. And even then you've only got one shot to catch the mutalisk; meanwhile, if the zerg does a quick tech switch you're fucked.
Thus, unless you have a special read on your opponent's plans and are certain that he'll use mutalisk, you will not find a long-term advantage in opening DAs in conjunction with a bisu-style build - or without a bisu build, for that matter.
All this said, DA use in PvZ should observe the following:
You SHOULD use DAs as a valuable asset for preserving a protoss mid or late game advantage because it allows you to maelstrom and kill elements of the zerg army that would otherwise simply run away. Thus maelstrom allows you to whittle down the zerg army despite its superior mobility. Feedback is also very valuable because of its quick cast and long range, and you can use it both at home and abroad.
You can and should use maelstrom to defend against drops by anticipating the overlords with the DA's placement. This is necessary, in conjunction with HTs, cannons and reavers, on small maps like Destination in order to hold the middle cliff bases against multi-pronged zerg offensives. When choosing whether to produce DAs, you should have AT LEAST 3 bases, if not more - otherwise don't consider DA production.
|
On October 18 2009 00:54 Holgerius wrote:
So, can some high level Protoss please go out on Iccup, try this out and post replays? I would like to see how this works out.
i did a standard +1 zeal rush into da(the way its normally done), my timing was actually off with the da against his muts but it still worked, apart from muts da is really helpful against ground units in a clump, especially vs hydras
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22621
|
I fail to see why such a small investment as 100/100 (about 1 observer and half a goon, or half a HT and half a goon etc) will cost you the game against lurk contain, while getting more than 2 corsairs seems not to have an effect on that. Bear in mind, even the first additional corsair is more expensive than your investment in maelstrom.
Of course I am assuming that you saved your DTs, and I also assume that the lurker contain is protected by overlords so that your DTs are completely obsolete. Otherwise the zerg couldn't snipe observes and the contain wouldn't last very long anyways.
DAs are not completely useless against anything but mutalisks. They easily are worth 100/100 for example by catching a group of hydras that attempts to snipe an observer - saved an observer and scores a few nice kills if you have a storm ready.
Also don't always argue about precious research time - we are talking about maelstrom AFTER storm, and hopefully after energy too, but that would have to be tested by decent players. In any case the most important research goes through unharmed.
That 1 cast to catch the mutalisks is sufficient. I have been maelstromed several times, and always with the first cast. Remeber that you click directly on a unit, and a muta is not the smallest unit in BW. As toss you should be able to focus mines which are way smaller and often vultures are blocking half of the mine's collision box. If you can do that, you can click a group of mutas.
Seriously, get the point guys: We are talking about getting a DA at minimal cost, at a time where DTs are almost useless anyways, after opening with a build that could actually use those 2 DTs. If the DTs die you can choose not to go for DA, you won't have started maelstrom research by then and won't have made any other investments in that tech. If you decide to get a DA, you would be best off adjusting your attack timing so that the DA optimizes your army strength best, but even if you don't the DA won't have a huge impact on your army size.
A tech switch from the zerg doesn't mean you're dead just because you morphed 2 DTs and spent 100/100, to get a unit that is effective against ANY zerg unit, and MORE effective against specific zerg units. If it was THAT simple, zergs would have 100% win ratio against toss.
On October 18 2009 03:33 iamtt1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2009 00:54 Holgerius wrote:
So, can some high level Protoss please go out on Iccup, try this out and post replays? I would like to see how this works out. i did a standard +1 zeal rush into da(the way its normally done), my timing was actually off with the da against his muts but it still worked, apart from muts da is really helpful against ground units in a clump, especially vs hydras http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22621
Nice game, too bad you had only 2 probes on your main gas for such a long time 
I guess you planned to go for DAs anyways, but if those 2 DTs had been part of a bo without DA, the DA tech could have been a reaction to the mutas you had scouted by that time. Storm wouldn't have been ready so much earlier either (well, 2 storms 25 energy earlier. You might have saved that forge if the zerg had bad storm dodging, hard to tell, and you might have lost 1 more HT there).
Those mutas are not the mutas I intend to counter with DAs. Obviously it works to some extent, but it requires maelstrom before storm.
The nicest thing about this replay is that it shows that maelstrom also works well if there are no mutas around. You obviously were not perfectly used to the DA, so you still could improve its performance, but you already did well, so it can't be that hard to use it.
By showing that the DA works is not a pure waste of money even if it cannot be used to catch a group of mutas you showed that a toss is not doomed if he invests into a DA at a later timing and the zerg doesn't make mutas. By researching maelstrom after storm you can play your game until that point just as usual, and later benefit from the immunity against HT sniping.
|
it actually was a reaction,i was planning to just send the 2 dts in his base and just storm up but then i saw his muts were faster than usual so i had no choice
and i had 3 on each gas didnt i? ;>
|
Check out the newest addition to the replay section,
Bom2 vs PMBCHERO93
2 Koreans who are at B- at the moment. Dunno anything about them.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is about the timing I am considering for maelstrom. The DA could have been merged a little later and still would have had 100 energy by the time the toss moved out. So you could just show the DTs to your opponent to keep him on his toes, but that really depends on the damage you expect to deal with DTs and the mindgames you want to play. Obviously in this game the zerg played right in the toss' hands by attempting a HT snipe. I wonder why the toss lost this quite huge advantage, maybe because he never researched HT energy. Anyways, it shows how extremely effective the DA is if it goes well, and how the timing works out. Now we would need some replays showing how well the DA does if there is no muta snipe attempt.
|
Finally we get to see something apart from this annoying theory crafting about 100 minerals. Well, the game itself was ok, allthough you had bad luck, because the Z simply did not use the HT sniping technique. Anyway the DA did not seem misplaced in a Protoss midgame army.
I suggest you keep testing this build and show us your results.
In the end I think DA could be something that helps the protoss to success against these modern Zerg builds.
Especially whet it comes to games like this, where the best Protoss player gets just raped by this muta sniping technique performed by some guy whose name i never even heard in my life, then it's pretty obvious that Protoss must adapt to stay competitive.
|
Guys, I've been playing around a lot of PvZs with it, and it does work -.-
Here is an example replay of a bit of the timing I am talking about, and the use. Aside from the DA usage, I had to go afk late-game to move my car RL and my brother took over so yeah lol, I checked rep when I got back and it may be corrupted as well xD so try not to criticize my play itself and the many mistakes I made like not attacking into only 3 lurkered sunkened up defenses with that many storms lol xD
Instead just focus up to the mid-game in this game and the timing of the DA that I think needs to be grinded out by more professionals as well as foreign protoss.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22633
|
I haven't read the entire thread yet but the first thing that came to mind for me was Stork vs GGPlay, Dark Archon --> Mind Control Defilerzzz --> PLAYGGGUUUUUUU
|
What the hell does that have to do with this thread.
|
On October 18 2009 05:22 spinesheath wrote:Check out the newest addition to the replay section, Bom2 vs PMBCHERO932 Koreans who are at B- at the moment. Dunno anything about them. + Show Spoiler +
This is about the timing I am considering for maelstrom. The DA could have been merged a little later and still would have had 100 energy by the time the toss moved out. So you could just show the DTs to your opponent to keep him on his toes, but that really depends on the damage you expect to deal with DTs and the mindgames you want to play. Obviously in this game the zerg played right in the toss' hands by attempting a HT snipe. I wonder why the toss lost this quite huge advantage, maybe because he never researched HT energy. Anyways, it shows how extremely effective the DA is if it goes well, and how the timing works out. Now we would need some replays showing how well the DA does if there is no muta snipe attempt.
Yes :p that is the timing.
|
I was curious if it'd work for an earlier timing than the HT sniping window. Since Zerg can deal really well with Corsairs these days, and Zerg always go Spire/Den, why not not forgo the Stargate and just go for a 4Gate 2 Archon + DA push? Would it take too long for the energy? Mael would solve the mobility issues against the Muta harass, and I'm pretty sure it'd counter the Hydra break. It's short duration, but getting a Zealot surround would be easy.
Does Mael work on burrowed units? I don't know how well that'd work against Hyrda/Lurker/Ling.
|
Maelstrom doesn't work on burrowed units so it is useless against lurkers while burrowed but would it would give you a big advantage if you managed to maelstrom the lurkers before they burrow.
|
On October 18 2009 11:25 zergnewb wrote:
Maelstrom doesn't work on burrowed units so it is useless against lurkers while burrowed but would it would give you a big advantage if you managed to maelstrom the lurkers before they burrow.
Well, if the the Lukers have to stay put, unless they be Mael'd, that gives you map control right? Seems like an easy opening for your 2nd expansion. I lose a lot of my games because my 3rd gets shut down. I'm by no means a top player, so if anyone sees anything wrong with this logic, go right ahead and point it out to me. I just don't like how Z has kinda figured everything out in PvZ. DA has the potential to be a wrench in the plans.
|
On October 18 2009 11:17 Cloak wrote:
I was curious if it'd work for an earlier timing than the HT sniping window. Since Zerg can deal really well with Corsairs these days, and Zerg always go Spire/Den, why not not forgo the Stargate and just go for a 4Gate 2 Archon + DA push? Would it take too long for the energy? Mael would solve the mobility issues against the Muta harass, and I'm pretty sure it'd counter the Hydra break. It's short duration, but getting a Zealot surround would be easy.
The Crosair is useful alone for the scouting. Though the DA allows you to get away with building less, or even one, so we may see a few more of those build variants in the near future.
Does Mael work on burrowed units? I don't know how well that'd work against Hyrda/Lurker/Ling.
Nope, but lurkers do have a nasty habit of clumping together before they burrow, which is of great benefit in a mid-game battle.
|
I think the OP is essentially correct, and I've seen several pros/top amateurs do this effectively.
One of the biggest pluses to this adaptation is that is essentially seamless when applied to the current standard toss build. Toss has a wide range of ways to spend their gas in the midgame. As long as they are not trying for a very strong harass or timing attack, adding 1 DA + maelstrom research will have very little economic effect.
It doesn't mean they have to skip any tech, upgrades, or units; it is relatively small tradeoff.
I do think maelstrom is a more effective counter than extra corsairs. Sairs are more expensive, and can still be easily beaten by muta/scourge if they aren't protected by your army. 1 DA virtually guarantees he won't be able to snipe any HTs, providing your timing is correct. DAs can't be sniped and maelstrom can't be dodged.
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
|
On October 18 2009 12:07 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +blablabla spinesheath wrote a lot of crap and im fucking drunk blablablablablablablablablabla³³³³³³³³³³³³³³³³ HUGE TROLL POST HERE
You are missing the entire point infernal. You still can get corsairs as needed to combat muta initially, and the +300/200 minerals and gas for the dark archon is not much to factor in because most protoss builds nowadays already incorporated dark templar into their build for harrassment - and even then, it is not difficult to create two dark templar as the game is about to approach mid-game.
Sairs/archon/dragoon will not stop templar sniping...the Z can suicide all of his mutas in his worst case scenario and snipe all of your templar, and then suddenly P is left with a crippled army size and has to wait for templar energy to build up all over again on new templars, and by that time it's too late...
the thing is with a DA, you potentially do not have to invest so much minerals/gas into corsairs, and that is the advantage, because it keeps your ground army huge, whereas if you pour more cash into sairs, not only do Z nowadays deal with them easily, but you lose ground army size that way. Just 1 DA can solve that problem potentially.
|
iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance.
If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so...
Maths still same. You lose 300 gas.
Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry.
A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.-
I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it?
Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ.
Which is what I can tell by experience...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
