EPT[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 10
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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TT1
Canada10115 Posts
also you dont know if z is going to mut switch after his mass hydra in order for you to da(your basically just hoping for him to do the switch so you have a cute counter), i use my first 2 dts as a runin or to harass z's drones so for a player like me it would be too expensive + costly to remake 2 dts + upping maelstorm before taking another exp(im assuming your going to da for a fast 2base rush) also i dont understand the part you say: "If the zerg doesn't go for hydras at first, you defend just as usual because your DTs wouldn't help you there anyways so you can merge them, and you don't have to get the maelstrom upgrade that early. Or you actually see it coming and go for very early maelstrom and own his mutas.", how would you know what z is going without sair teching? even bisu wouldnt be able to keep his probe alive long enough to check out z's tech.. when most p users do do an early game mael its mostly a blind counter(even at the progamer level you can see alot of games where p goes for early da while z just hydras, theres a rep of this right now in the tl rep section between pusan and ych[z-zone].. thats basically the psychological aspect of bw, mael works well if you know your opponent) | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 16 2009 05:45 iamtt1 wrote: yea that would be a good alternative if youd keep your scouting probe alive long enought to see his tech.. but usually when a good z sees that your sair is late they go straigh for muts anyways(i havnt practiced that timing out but im sure that 3hat lair>5 hat>mut would be ahead of your da+storm timing, da+arch would be able to counter it tho but then theres the problem of a mut fake into a mass drone+hydra style.. and if you dont morph your temps in order to get early storm you might get caught off guard by the early mut timing rush) This is not the build I intend to counter with maelstrom. I should come before you have to research maelstrom (you want maelstrom researched right as you move out to acquire mapcontrol and secure your 3rd). In any case you spent at most 100/100 for DA tech at this point, if you even started the upgrade. On October 16 2009 05:45 iamtt1 wrote: also you dont know if z is going to mut switch after his mass hydra in order for you to da(your basically just hoping for him to do the switch so you have a cute counter), i use my first 2 dts as a runin or to harass z's drones so for a player like me it would be too expensive + costly to remake 2 dts + upping maelstorm before taking another exp(im assuming your going to da for a fast 2base rush) You are not hoping for him to switch, but instead you are sure that, even if he switches to mutas, they won't be a threat. So you can design your gameplan around countering anything that is not muta. If he goes for muta, you have a huge advantage. If he does not, he plays exactly as you planned (unless he plays cheesy) and thus makes it much easier for you. And you have an advantage as well: If a zerg is fine with spending 900/900 on mutas that he does not expect to survive the HT sniping (or at least expects ~5 of them to die, and the rest to be on low HP), then that means that saving your HTs should be worth about the same amount for the toss (you'd have to consider the mining rate though). A DA costs you nowhere near 900/900, and in fact, if fit properly into your build it should only cost 100/100 or 225/200 if one DT dies. Even if zerg mines twice as many resources (meaning your HTs protection should be worth 450/450) you'd be ahead. So really the biggest problems around the DA should be the management and micro, but I am positive that it can be done. If you can deal significant damage with the DT, you might not need a DA anyways. If you just blindly send in your DT and hope that it might do some damage you should rethink. Counting on luck isn't going to get anywhere. Most progamers withdraw their DTs at the first hit, unless they are already killing drones. On October 16 2009 05:45 iamtt1 wrote: also i dont understand the part you say: "If the zerg doesn't go for hydras at first, you defend just as usual because your DTs wouldn't help you there anyways so you can merge them, and you don't have to get the maelstrom upgrade that early. Or you actually see it coming and go for very early maelstrom and own his mutas.", how would you know what z is going without sair teching? even bisu wouldnt be able to keep his probe alive long enough to check out z's tech.. when most p users do do an early game mael its mostly a blind counter(even at the progamer level you can see alot of games where p goes for early da while z just hydras, theres a rep of this right now in the tl rep section between pusan and ych[z-zone].. thats basically the psychological aspect of bw, mael works well if you know your opponent) Where do you get the idea of no corsair tech from? Again, you are aiming for maelstrom to support your first army after any speedlot/archon/+1 pushes. Everything up until this point goes as usual with the difference that you merge 2 DTs that hopefully survived and research maelstrom at a timing so that it finishes right as you move out. We are not discussing maelstrom at a timing similar to that replay. | ||
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poebae
Australia134 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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TT1
Canada10115 Posts
i dont want to be the negative critic and all but the way you want to da is useless imo, however it would be nice to see a game of you trying out the b.o so i could get a clear idea of what you mean, if it makes sense ill try to mimic it in a few ladder games just to see what happens | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
straight sair->archives tech. DA asap and try to hide it in a corner or something. Then hts/storm. then mael in time for 100. mass zealot/4+ht. hts to archon as necessary for muta. robo as necessary for lurk. goons as necessary for obs sniping/lurk. By the time you move out ~10min DA has enough energy for 2 maels. In your large attack 2x mael the clumps. or you could go 2hts/storm before the DA and have 1mael by that time. | ||
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TT1
Canada10115 Posts
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Albert702
China33 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 16 2009 09:32 iamtt1 wrote: the only reason you early da/maelstorm is to cut sair'ing in order to ground mass earlier while countering muts(if he muts u have an opening for a timing rush and if he doesnt u need to macro up a bit before coming out), if your going to sair and do a +1 timing rush and then switch into mael your totally screwed because z is just going to overpower you everytime you try to come out If the zerg can sacrifice 900/900 for sniping HTs, the toss can sacrifice 350/300 (in the worst case) for denying that and still be well in the game, no matter if the zerg actually snipes or not. Also, the zerg doesn't simply overpower you just because you make a DA and maelstrom. 100/100 is only worth a few seconds. The zerg will have at most 4 more hydras in that time, maybe 1 lurk + 4 lings. You will have 2 less DTs and 1 more DA. Suppose that you don't cast maelstrom on your worker line. Instead you hit 4 hydras (not the best hit, honestly), but DON'T storm them right away (unless the zerg retreats and you can't clear the hydras with something else). That means that you are at a 2 DT disadvantage, and the zerg has an obstacle in his way. And as far as I know, DTs suck against mass hydra or lurk/ling. In any case you wouldn't be overrun as badly as you imply. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 16 2009 09:19 StarBrift wrote: I think the key to why this will never be a solid part of the metagame is that getting a dark archon with maelstrom to counter mutas takes time and if the zerg scouts it and choses to not use mutas at all he should be able to use that small econ advantage. The minerals / tech time used could be used for more storms and archons / zealots. and another one. please read the topic that you are answering to... The minerals/tech/time are not delayed by DAs in ANY way... since you tech how you *normally* do, make DTs how you *normally* do, create HT's and research storm the way you *normally* do... the only difference is that depending in what you scout you will research maelstrom before or after storm/energy... I agree with iamtt1though. the only thing i do not agree with his comment is when he says "if your going to sair and do a +1 timing rush and then switch into mael your totally screwed because z is just going to overpower you everytime you try to come out" 1st) With a DA I dont think there is a need for a +1 timing rush. The DA gives me enough power to go for a well macroed push. 2nd) a DA is perfect for making the zerg think twice about harassing. Which is a good plus. also makes them think twice about trying to snipe HT's which is a bigger plus than the other one, and in case he skipped mutas altogether we argue that the DA can still be used to maelstrom (probably 2 times if you push out with 200/200 nrg) part of his units to make sure you are not overpowered and to make sure that you have some sure targets to land some storms... if you dont want to waste all the storms those maelstromed units can be hit/killed with your normal army and then you have acomplished your task. I would say that basically a DA would be there to remove the great threat that the zergs have become and force them to play more careful/predictable which is where the protoss are standing right now... toss are too predictable while zerg have this killer switches... a DA would make sure those switches are more careful and more "counterable" but that is my opinion... and actually iamtt1 it is actually perfect that we have some people objecting and criticizing because that way we can actually see if it works or not, and we can workout on the timings and stuff, actually criticizing is better than just saying that is a good techniq. | ||
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Kullosus
Canada18 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Kullosus
Canada18 Posts
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
If I remember correct kwark did it to ret on ret's stream. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On October 17 2009 00:53 d(O.o)a wrote: If I remember correct kwark did it to ret on ret's stream. Haha, Kwark just keeled over and died that after the maelstrom though. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 17 2009 00:24 Kullosus wrote: What about D-web use? Generally you have to build corsairs anyway. All you need is a Fleet Beacon and a choke point. A couple good D-webs, some photon cannons and goons and you can defend an attack. The cost of DWeb is immense. You need more than 1 or 2 corsairs, you need a fleet beacon (300/200), the web upgrade (200/200 iirc). DWeb is not nearly as effective as maelstrom, especially for defending HTs... Yeah corsairs work well against mutas, but you would still have to invest more than you'd pay for the DA, and by protecting your HTs you limit the mobility of your sairs. The huge cost for DWeb + several sairs affects your army size significantly more than a DA would. The spell costs 125 energy, which is even more than maelstrom. All together: DWeb doesn't stand a chance against DAs in the scenario we are considering. It obviously makes sense for heavy sair/reaver or sair/dt, or especially sair/carrier, but it will always be very map specific and harrassment/defense oriented, instead of mapcontrol oriented like DA play. We also were not talking about defending an attack on your base, but templar sniping, which commonly happens ouside of the protoss' base. | ||
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FaZiNaTe
Germany290 Posts
could this work i am new but i would do it this way. + Corsair,goons and archons no source or mutalisk should be able to kill the HTs?! Or is the Shuttle toooo fast down against the mutas? but maybe with shuttle speed..^^ what u guys think? | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
On October 17 2009 05:42 [ADT]-FaZiNaTe-[GeR] wrote: Whats about HTs in Shuttle with good micro?! could this work i am new but i would do it this way. + Corsair,goons and archons no source or mutalisk should be able to kill the HTs?! Or is the Shuttle toooo fast down against the mutas? but maybe with shuttle speed..^^ what u guys think? ahaha. big problem here. If the ht's are in the shuttle how are they gonna storm? coincidentaly scourge? if the spires up they can just retreat a bit pop a few scourge and roll you You NEED the storm to thin the Z army. By keeping the ht's on the ground there's the possibility you can get at least 1 storm off | ||
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Vekzel
Poland142 Posts
On October 17 2009 05:42 [ADT]-FaZiNaTe-[GeR] wrote: Whats about HTs in Shuttle with good micro?! could this work i am new but i would do it this way. + Corsair,goons and archons no source or mutalisk should be able to kill the HTs?! Or is the Shuttle toooo fast down against the mutas? but maybe with shuttle speed..^^ what u guys think? Shuttle is perfectly OK. It's not about speed, it's about HP. Shuttles are hardy enough to survive one hit-and-run Muta strike. The only concern are Scourges, especially when you move out and Goons are busy with fight on the ground. I don't know why this kind of solution isn't used more often. I've seen couple of pros using it, and it worked fine. Maybe it's underappreciated because it adds even more multitasking issues to Toss gameplay? EDIT: For more dark-sides of Shuttle+HT, see post above. | ||
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