EPTHow much does it cost? How many storms are sacrificed for it? But with a bit of luck, cast it as the mutas are approaching and they'll waste a lot of mutas trying to kill fake HTs.
[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 9
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
How much does it cost? How many storms are sacrificed for it? But with a bit of luck, cast it as the mutas are approaching and they'll waste a lot of mutas trying to kill fake HTs. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 15 2009 07:29 Hapahauli wrote: Brah. When you scout with a crosair, you can adjust your build to get a DA or not. If you see a spire, research mael and fuse your two DTs. If you don't, don't. And the trigger that should make a Protoss say, "let's get a DA to accumulate nrg" really shouldn't be the spire itself - Zerg in this era ALWAYS will have a spire vs FE protoss stargate opening. Because remember, the purpose of the DA is not to prevent muta harrassment on your mineral line, you have archons/first sairs/templar for that. The trigger is whether or not you assess whether your first DTs will be able to do any damage, or if you keep 1-2 alive, then you may as well merge them to prepare for mid-game. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 15 2009 07:50 gen.Sun wrote: Anyone else think Hallucinate is the key? How much does it cost? How many storms are sacrificed for it? But with a bit of luck, cast it as the mutas are approaching and they'll waste a lot of mutas trying to kill fake HTs. You realize they'll just snipe the hallucinations THEN your real templar or vica versa...right? lol  plus that is storm energy used, and remember the point of the DA is to allow the templar to remain in P's army composition untouched, as in alive-wise and nrg-wise. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On October 15 2009 07:50 avilo wrote: The key thing is that the DA has no impact on your resources except for maelstrom research, and the DA has no impact on your army size or composition either. And that's not that important? Mid-game protoss army is reliant on having storms out ASAP to deal with hydras. Maelstrom research delays that by 100 game seconds. Making the toss army more vulnerable to zerg rushes, as well as delay push timing by quite a bit. If Maelstrom was researched at another location separate from storm, your point would be a lot more valid. Then again, if that was the case, DAs would be used in PvZ quite a bit more. | ||
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cakemanofdoom
336 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 15 2009 09:06 baubo wrote: And that's not that important? Mid-game protoss army is reliant on having storms out ASAP to deal with hydras. Maelstrom research delays that by 100 game seconds. Making the toss army more vulnerable to zerg rushes, as well as delay push timing by quite a bit. If Maelstrom was researched at another location separate from storm, your point would be a lot more valid. Then again, if that was the case, DAs would be used in PvZ quite a bit more. On October 15 2009 09:11 cakemanofdoom wrote: I thought we were talking about Mael after storm? Yes, we are talking about maelstrom after storm/nrg upgrade. But some people refuse to read and try to make it out as if you are getting maelstrom in place of storm -> which is not the case. You basically research maelstrom as you are about to move out. It is amazing how many people keep saying storm/templars are delayed, army size is reduced, or that vast amount of resources are spent into one DA when that is not the case. | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
On October 15 2009 07:59 avilo wrote: You realize they'll just snipe the hallucinations THEN your real templar or vica versa...right? lol plus that is storm energy used, and remember the point of the DA is to allow the templar to remain in P's army composition untouched, as in alive-wise and nrg-wise.It's not possible to create a no-cost counter. We're talking about sacrificing some part of the regular build to create a counter to the 10 muta snipe. In my (watching) experience, usually 10 all mutas die from archon/sair/goon fire by the time they snipe 4 HTs. Well if there were 8 HTs then they won't be able to finish sniping before they die. 400 energy to save 2 HTs (assuming they kill 2 fakes and 2 reals) is well worth it imo. Edit: People talking about free DTs from the sair/DT opening is talking about a fantasy. What kind of DT harass doesn't end up with the DTs dying? If you invest in a DT opening and end up not using your DTs to harass, then the opening has really failed, and that's a sacrifice in of itself. Edit2: Also note that Hallucination is 20 seconds faster than Maelstorm. Also note that time to create a DA is 20 seconds again. You also have to have a DA that has enough energy to cast Malestorm, 20 seconds I believe. In total your push is delayed by 140 seconds, or 2 and a half minutes. This is quite expensive. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 15 2009 07:29 Hapahauli wrote: Brah. When you scout with a crosair, you can adjust your build to get a DA or not. If you see a spire, research mael and fuse your two DTs. If you don't, don't. .... ALL Zergs get a spire. Pretty much ALL of them. Spire =/= getting mutas. On October 15 2009 11:09 gen.Sun wrote: It's not possible to create a no-cost counter. We're talking about sacrificing some part of the regular build to create a counter to the 10 muta snipe. In my (watching) experience, usually 10 all mutas die from archon/sair/goon fire by the time they snipe 4 HTs. Well if there were 8 HTs then they won't be able to finish sniping before they die. 400 energy to save 2 HTs (assuming they kill 2 fakes and 2 reals) is well worth it imo. Edit: People talking about free DTs from the sair/DT opening is talking about a fantasy. What kind of DT harass doesn't end up with the DTs dying? If you invest in a DT opening and end up not using your DTs to harass, then the opening has really failed, and that's a sacrifice in of itself. Edit2: Also note that Hallucination is 20 seconds faster than Maelstorm. Also note that time to create a DA is 20 seconds again. You also have to have a DA that has enough energy to cast Malestorm, 20 seconds I believe. In total your push is delayed by 140 seconds, or 2 and a half minutes. This is quite expensive. Disagreed, I don't believe 400 energy is worth it to save 2 HT's at all, those 2 HT's lost don't even have 400 energy... and it's such an intensive gamble... I don't get how you come up with the 140 seconds btw. Creating a DA for 20 seconds shouldn't have its time incorporated at all, you can do it before Maelstrom finishes researching. Same with the energy provision. The only limiting factor is the Maelstrom tech finishing and whether or not you want to wait for 200/200 energy, getting 100 shouldn't be an issue. DT are only 2 units, and the threat of them is still in existence. While you're right it could be considered a setback - it's not necessarily a major one since Zerg still had to go through the provisions to defend from it from only 2 units (which is the exact same mentality people are using in this thread about zergs no longer going mutas if they see DA). It's some theorycrafting but personally I don't think hallucination is viable at ALL. You need to do it before the Zerg even goes into muta sniping otherwise they'll see it, and you're just wasting templar energy that could be utilized on storm. Realize most templar won't have more htan 150 energy even after the talisman upgrade, so using a hallucination will probably result in the templar not being able to storm at ALL. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 15 2009 09:06 baubo wrote: And that's not that important? Mid-game protoss army is reliant on having storms out ASAP to deal with hydras. Maelstrom research delays that by 100 game seconds. Making the toss army more vulnerable to zerg rushes, as well as delay push timing by quite a bit. If Maelstrom was researched at another location separate from storm, your point would be a lot more valid. Then again, if that was the case, DAs would be used in PvZ quite a bit more. wrong... and it is obvious you havent read the thread... maelstrom AFTER normal storm and energy but BEFORE pushing out with your main attack which wont be reduced on number... again in slow motion: ->normal build ->2DTs as usual ->go and see if you can harass... if you do great!! if you cant, *dont let your dts die* and merge them... ->you continue creating HTs, research your stuff as usual while protecting your base. ->you think about pushing out THEN research maelstrom and voila! a great threat to the snipers... "ah!! he didnt make mutas!!! I am doomed!!!..." no you are not... 90% of zerg units can be maelstromed... so basically when you are attacking, you see his over 9000 hydras and you do what you normally do (cast spells on them you know...?) but BEFORE everything you just try to pin 1/2 of the hydras with your maelstrom which you already have and then storm them = zerg is crippled in the first battle. you can go and tech or expand or mass units... but that is the general theory that thanks to the OP we are discussing... PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING.... so... 1) no mysterious APM rocking to the sky... you are not maelstroming every 1 second 2) no resources mysteriously disappearing... you are making the 2 DTs anyway (unless you lose them, in which case you WONT do the DA would you?)... 3) no low unit count unless you stay watching how your DA merges and forget to make more units... We need more posts opposing the creation of a DA so we can see what could be the real problem and why progammers are not using it... | ||
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sauc
Canada26 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
Just looking at the games, for Bisu it didn't work vs queens, for JangBi it didn't work vs mutas and there are many examples where it didn't work vs simple hydra-lurker-scourge combo. Of course when zerg will see the DA he will use the last variant, that's the logical thing to do. And toss will waste 300 gas early game just to be sure his templars will not be sniped. This will make the toss exit his base very late, when the zerg will have 4 bases saturated if he will play smart and from this point it's difficult to not get killed by simple brute force. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 15 2009 17:24 arbiter_md wrote: Just looking at the games, for Bisu it didn't work vs queens, for JangBi it didn't work vs mutas and there are many examples where it didn't work vs simple hydra-lurker-scourge combo. Of course when zerg will see the DA he will use the last variant, that's the logical thing to do. And toss will waste 300 gas early game just to be sure his templars will not be sniped. That is not a waste though... and if you force the Zerg to not even make mutas then great, you don't have to worry about it and just forced them to change their plan. | ||
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.risingdragoon
United States3021 Posts
First of all, maelstrom is cast on a unit meaning it tracks, so you really shouldn't miss if you practice it. 2nd of all, learn to cast better. DA is like any other unit in the game, meaning it has to face the target in order to attack/cast it faster. So if you point it towards the mutas, it will have a much higher chance of success. If it's facing the other way, it has to turn first. 3rdly, it's only 1 unit, and it has a lot of shield for a spellcaster so it doesn't die easily. It's certainly moves much better than the queen, . 4th, Feedback is very useful too. So right away there's already 2 skills protoss can learn to do well. Did you think modern muta micro happened in 1 day? As for the build order I leave that to the pros. DA is high tech but it's the same tech as HTs so I think there's a way to make it work, as opposed to getting your 450-600+ gas worth of HTs asswooped. | ||
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KingV
United States97 Posts
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 15 2009 17:14 sauc wrote: Landing a maelstrom on moving mutas isn't exactly easy to do either and not something I see protoss relying as a key to winning the game.. What if you miss? mutas are air units and much faster then hydras its not the same as storming correct me if I am wrong but casting a normal storm is way more difficult on moving mutas since that is the point of the maelstrom that they DONT move. I have a replay in which I casted 4 storms and killed 2-4 mutas in a pack of 9 because he move them all the time... If I had a DA with maelstrom and casted it on them with 1-2 storms they would be dead, since they cant move at all... and that is the point, how do we get to the point where that DA is ready to go in a good timing and with no downside (at least not too huge). | ||
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sauc
Canada26 Posts
On October 15 2009 20:03 RaptorX wrote: correct me if I am wrong but casting a normal storm is way more difficult on moving mutas since that is the point of the maelstrom that they DONT move. I have a replay in which I casted 4 storms and killed 2-4 mutas in a pack of 9 because he move them all the time... If I had a DA with maelstrom and casted it on them with 1-2 storms they would be dead, since they cant move at all... and that is the point, how do we get to the point where that DA is ready to go in a good timing and with no downside (at least not too huge). sorry i meant the difference between storming hydras vs maelstroming mutas | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 15 2009 17:14 sauc wrote: Landing a maelstrom on moving mutas isn't exactly easy to do either and not something I see protoss relying as a key to winning the game.. What if you miss? mutas are air units and much faster then hydras its not the same as storming Yesterday I played 2 2v2s where I was zerg and got maelstromed. In the first game the maelstrom hit the instant I saw the DA. No chance for any of my mutas. The second game I saw the DA early enough and kept my distance. He still managed to catch me eventually. True, a 2v2 is a different setting, but it certainly shows that maelstroming mutas is not as hard as you say. And here's the reason: Mutas are usually not perfectly stacked against HTs because you don't have to do a maximum range hit and run as you do against terran. You can instead get very close to the HTs and make the toss storm his own units. A better stack is potentially more harmful to the mutas due to splash. That's why the muta stack will be larger than a single muta, and actually is a huge blob to click on. It doesn't matter which muta you click because maelstrom will affect them all as long as you really click a muta. Compare that to terrans who have to irradiate a perfect muta stack but try not to hit the one right in the center because that one is easy to pull out for the zerg. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
I just played this PvZ where I dared to use the DA... [PvZ with DA pwnage] The guy went to muta, so it worked PERFECTLY as we have discussed. Even though I admit this is not a typical PvZ match and the guy played rather slow and sloppy... I would say the guy was rather greedy...(¬_¬) Now the main point is that It does not require too much apm or resources, and since I am a low level player and it went so good I guess people with more level than me can do it MUCH better... it is all about timing and well use of that unit. I would agree that at higher levels it would be little bit more difficult to pull off with the right timing i guess it will have the effect that we are talking about... few points to note... I delayed the energy of the templar because I was aware that he was going muta but I strongly agree that energy research goes BEFORE maelstrom. By the time I pushed on his 3rd I had 1-2 maelstrom ready (not sure how much energy I had available) and 2 full HT storm + my army... sure you guys can do a better job on that... more HTs and more units... so the quiz question of the day: How much mirnerals/gas did zerg lost in 1 attack including 2 hatcheries and few sunkens...? About me (in other words, excuses for my bad play) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am a D/D+ Player. Even though low level player I have never sucked so hard in my life at placing buildings... and mid-end game is extremely hard for me right now... so please just concentrate in the first part of the game... T_T EDIT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Didnt see this until now: now this is Epic Pwnage... gosu style... when I grow up I want to be like that guy... notes: <amazement> he actually researched maelstrom before even storm and he was still on time for beating the crap out of the zerg... his unit count was excellent and i didnt even see a hiccup in his macro... I dont even know how he managed to tech up to have maelstrom/normal storm, corsairs, observers, few HTs and DA all before even laying one finger on the zerg... </amazement> I must say that at D/D+ level zergs are more cheese style so he got the time to do all that when I usually have to face stupid 3hatch speedlings in my games... ¬¬ so that proves the theory that there is no great resource/apm preassure by just fusing 2 DTs and that after raping the mutas the DA was not useless... he did maelstromed some hydras... enough to force the zerg to go lings... | ||
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TT1
Canada9984 Posts
fast da is strong on maps where your 2nd nat is free or close to you(its amazing on maps like medusa - andro and its a decent opening on maps like heartbreak) edit: ive been testing out pvz da openings for some time now, i havnt had any problems with fast da on medusa(sadly no one plays on it anymore).. it works great even if z doesnt mut because the close exp + 2nd forge up(if i do this build i get an early 2nd forge) compensate for the missed timing attack basicly da openings are very map orientated | ||
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