EPT4 HTs have more combined health than 1 shuttle, plus the shuttle dies instantly to scourge (and the zerg most likely has 2 scourge out already).
[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 11
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
4 HTs have more combined health than 1 shuttle, plus the shuttle dies instantly to scourge (and the zerg most likely has 2 scourge out already). | ||
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Sharp-eYe
Canada642 Posts
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Jadyks
United States119 Posts
We've already established that the timing needs to be developed and with the current build ORDER it doesn't fit, you're needing the 100/100 and the DTs for what they are developed for at that time. But, when the new timing is found where you can have the Dark Archon to establish map control, then it flows perfectly into the build order. Think of it as a timeline; Dark archon sits at zero. Before the Dark Archon comes in, you've got DTs that wreck havoc on the zerg player and his map control. At zero, the Dark Archon fulfills its immediate purpose; prevent harassment and establish map control. But what about after zero? The thing that makes Dark Archon so damn useful in PvZ and the reason it slides so well into this build order is how immensely useful Maelstrom is against late game ultraling defiler attacks by the zerg. Freezing clumps of ultralisks makes you win battles head-to-head; freezing clumps of lurkers under Dark Swarm allows you to avoid heavy losses and even swing the current battle in your favor. Two or three Dark Archons can immobilize an entire zerg army, leaving your powerful upgraded forces to sweep it away in sections. Dark Archon has its place in upper-level PvZ, I'm absolutely sure of it. | ||
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cinnabun
United States16 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 17 2009 12:23 Jadyks wrote: One point I think we're missing that Day[9] would approve of us bringing up in this thread is how perfectly Dark Archon fits into the build. We've already established that the timing needs to be developed and with the current build ORDER it doesn't fit, you're needing the 100/100 and the DTs for what they are developed for at that time. But, when the new timing is found where you can have the Dark Archon to establish map control, then it flows perfectly into the build order. Think of it as a timeline; Dark archon sits at zero. Before the Dark Archon comes in, you've got DTs that wreck havoc on the zerg player and his map control. At zero, the Dark Archon fulfills its immediate purpose; prevent harassment and establish map control. But what about after zero? The thing that makes Dark Archon so damn useful in PvZ and the reason it slides so well into this build order is how immensely useful Maelstrom is against late game ultraling defiler attacks by the zerg. Freezing clumps of ultralisks makes you win battles head-to-head; freezing clumps of lurkers under Dark Swarm allows you to avoid heavy losses and even swing the current battle in your favor. Two or three Dark Archons can immobilize an entire zerg army, leaving your powerful upgraded forces to sweep it away in sections. Dark Archon has its place in upper-level PvZ, I'm absolutely sure of it. It already does fit perfectly into the build. Your DTs become less useful after the zerg has established detection/defense and has overlord speed on the way, and there are no additional buildings necessary, the only real investment is 100/100. Just like in his most recent podcast, Fantasy's Vultures become less useful, so he invests 100/100 in a dropship. The only timing that you might have to adjust is your attack timing, which might have to be delayed slightly to allow the DA to stack 100 energy / finish maelstrom research. But to compensate for that, your army will be that much stronger. A DA has its purpose throughout the entire game, obviously. It fulfills its main duty of preventing HT sniping just by being close to your HTs. Later it becomes even more useful through feedback on defilers and maelstrom on ultras. | ||
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Pancia
United States17 Posts
Can't the zerg just split his mutalisks up so that a MS doesn't do much? or at least as much? Or am I forgetting something, like size of MS or the possible defense? | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Actually you can't do anything well with a limited number of spread mutalisks. And we are not talking about any 5 gas pure muta builds. | ||
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Captain
United States204 Posts
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 17 2009 15:05 cinnabun wrote: Toss need to start 2 gating again. Not all the time, but sometimes. If zerg is never sure what you will do, then he cannot have already planned out all his perfect counters. P starts showing variety in their gameplans = P starts winning alot more. Duh. big point! but just 1 little problem... I have been thinking this myself. Start 2 gate builds or even 1gate have disconcentrated a lot of zergs recently and give me the upper hand for a few minutes of game, right now i am trying to squeeze a DA in a 2gate build... but here is the problem. You are working on 1 gas and it is freaking difficult to win against zerg on 1gas... and there is the other problem, expanding gets more and more difficult since I have noticed that when zerg sees that you are playing 2gate they upgrade their defences, go mutas and increase their zerling count, which btw is very hard to kill... | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Sair >>>>>>>>>> Dark Archon. Make 4 sairs and you're save against mutas if you use them correctly. IMO the only big problem recently is that you CANT SCOUT ALL THE TIME with sair if you dont have 350 apm means the muta switch will be scouted too late or not at all. Zerg also has the possibility of not going mutas at all - and 2 storms + 1 DA is just not enough vs massive hydra->lurker follow up. Remember zerg can have up to 50 Hydra + 12 muta or 60-70 Hydra OR 45 hydra+5-10 lurkers until the most "big" pushes happen. Means 2-3 or 4-5 templars make quite SOME difference. The whole DA idea is shit because its _JUST NOT POSSIBLE TIMINGWISE_ - sure if you scout muta and get Maelstorm _FIRST_ it will be on time to possibly maelstorm all the mutas if the Zerg is careless. Problem: IF you do Psi first, you do NOT have maelstorm on time if Zerg goes for muta right after the 5 hatch start + ~5-8 hydra to defend. IF you do maelstorm first you won't have Psi ready when Mutas arrive -> you'd need an Archon to kill them. Means you have not 2 temps but 4 temps less. You speak about cost effectiveness? EVERY PROTOSS BUILD REQUIRES 1-2 SAIRS. MAKE FUCKING SAIR NUMBER 3 4 AND 5 IF YOU SCOUT MUTAS....?!?! Tbh this whole fucking DA discussion is obsolote and just a "oh I'm too bad to use my corsairs proper" thing if you ask me. Yes, I am too bad to use my corsairs to the fullest extent as well. But at least I do realize that's my fault and not "me doing the wrong builds"... Really, it can be good for slow 130-160 apm'ish players (someone said LZ does it - he for example isn't really the fastest player) Tbh _IF_ you get Dark Archons then do it like LZ does - gamble and don't get corsairs at all but rather 1-2 cannons per base. Then it is IS possible to have storm + MS before Mutas. With sair tech it ISN'T ! ! <-- can't repeat this enough. DA tech = 300 gas and 350 minerals. 3 more sairs than the 1-2 you already made = 300 gas and 450 minerals + no additional upgrade required etc blablablabla. Go figure. | ||
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Jadyks
United States119 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 17 2009 23:23 Jadyks wrote: Infernal sairs do not prevent muta snipes. Even 4 sairs can't kill a stack of mutas before they've sniped 3 or 4 and run away. lol. 1-2 good storm + sair splash = goodbye muta. Remember Zerg is keen on keeping the mutas alive. Means he wont sacrifice 11 muta for sniping 1-2 temps cuz P just retreats, makes 2-3 new temps and attacks with an even bigger ball. Wanna do Mutas again as Zerg then? When P already got goon and archons? Sounds smart. Edit: Let me point this out even more: 2-3 Templars = 450 gas. 11 Mutas = 1100/1100. Maths wins. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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Jadyks
United States119 Posts
Zerg doesn't even have to keep the mutas alive to be cost effective! 2-3 templars means the protoss ground army will always get overrun, so it's worth it even if the zerg loses every last muta! Goons do not do shit to mutas and mutas can out-micro archons. Let me point this out even more: The current solution of "Storm your own units and hope your sairs chase 'em off" is sloppy, inefficient, and is the reason for the current zerg domination over protoss. Come up with a new idea. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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TT1
Canada10007 Posts
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TT1
Canada10007 Posts
On October 17 2009 23:36 Jadyks wrote: using storm to kill muta harass means you're also storming your own units. Doesn't make any fucking sense. Plus it's way too easy to dodge storm with mutas, so you're wasting all the storms that could be spent on hydras. Zerg doesn't even have to keep the mutas alive to be cost effective! 2-3 templars means the protoss ground army will always get overrun, so it's worth it even if the zerg loses every last muta! Goons do not do shit to mutas and mutas can out-micro archons. Let me point this out even more: The current solution of "Storm your own units and hope your sairs chase 'em off" is sloppy, inefficient, and is the reason for the current zerg domination over protoss. Come up with a new idea. if ur gonna storm muts ur obviously going to do it smartly, ur not just going to storm them while their flying around.. u attack/micro with ur sairs and while theyre in 1 position u storm them | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 17 2009 23:41 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, in the Shine vs Bisu on HBR game, Bisu's storms did shit all to stop Shine's mutalisks from massacring his templars, and Bisu had quite a few dragoons as well. Nowadays, it's almost as if losing your mutalisks is worth it if you kill all the templars, because without templars the protoss army will die to hydras. The same thing happened in Calm's recent ZvP on HBR as well. Calm was really behind and he just went pure hydra with templar snipes and he won. The protoss made some mistakes too by throwing units instead of solidifying his advantage, but still. I don't remember there being a lot of corsairs around when the mutalisk sniper squads killed the templars though, and that might be a big reason why the mutalisks were able to do their job properly. Bisu had NO FUCKING CORSAIRS. Scouting mistake nothing else. He got surprised by the Mutas and deserved that sniping for not being aware. Shine played mindgames too, first he used pure hydlurk twice with drop follow up and in 3rd game he went for mutas. Once again. You do NOT LOSE ALL YOUR TEMPLARS IF YOU HAVE 5 SAIRS AND 4-5 TEMPLARS. That's just fucking pathetic micro if you do. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
replay here is a replay that i played today in that situation... if DA can help in D/D+ levels why cant be used in the upper levels? note: I had a nice army and I did have several HT's with storm. but I went archon > sair... which means 1) I didnt have enough scout information 2) had to merge 2 HTs in case he came with muta harass... but after I saw what he was up to I have to say that the DA helped me to break that contain easily (I usually have lots of trouble to go out of a zerg contain without reavers.) also note that I was not playing FE, which means it IS possible to go DA for middle game with no problems (at least at low levels where zergs /= JD). In general I will start including that unit in my army more often since it is more versatile than I thought at the beginning. If we toss start using that unit more I am dead sure that zergs are going to be more careful when playing with us. | ||
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