On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas. Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.- I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
You utterly fail at maths: 5 sairs is 3-4 more sairs than the usual 1-2 sairs. 3-4 sairs cost 300-400 gas. 1 DA only costs you 300 gas if you made the DTs for the DA only. A DA costs you 100-300 gas.
300 (worst case DA) is the SAME as 300 (best case corsairs). Yes, really, it is. Making 5 sairs and making 1 DA affects your HT count equally in some cases, but it's potentially worse in the sair case.
If the toss retreats, as you suggest, the zerg has achieved his goal - he has denied the toss' 3rd base, and can possibly take an expansion. He also is able to apply pressure on the toss at a point where the zerg's macro kicks in.
Oh and you don't LOSE gas by making DAs. Get it, DAs ARE useful against any zerg army. Corsairs are ONLY useful against mutas, overlords, and, in large numbers, corsairs can help against scourge. Your 5 corsairs probably should rather avoid scourge, though, especially when accompanied by mutas. Oh yeah, corsairs can scout too, but you don't need 5 of them for that.
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas. Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.- I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
Have you been watching progaming lately? Good players DO ''waste'' their mutas for the sake of sniping the templars.
commentators, especially nalra, is advocating just this lately. Almost every single zvp ends bad for the p as they get all their HTs sniped.
In a recent proleague match pure vs july, pure's 2 dts couldnt do anything because of exellent sim city. Nalra was like, "they cant do anything right? In this case it could be a good idea to retreat and morph them into DA." In that particular game, July didnt make mutas, but the point still stands. Those DTs didnt accomplish much in the protoss main army.
Yep. The DA thing makes total sense. Most P's get DT's anyway, and it has been pretty much impossible to prevent the kamikaze mutas from sniping the HT's. No HT's = massive Zerg map control.
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas.
Math-time!
Crosairs cost 100 Gas each. 5 sairs = 500 Gas.
Dark Templars cost 100 gas each. 2 Dark Templars cost 100 gas Maelstrom research costs 100 Gas. 1 Dark Archon Costs 300 Gas.
However, since most protoss build 2dark templars anyway in addition to crosairs, you only really are paying for Maelstrom research. So the effective cost of a Dark Archon is 100 Gas.
Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.-
With the math above, what's more cost-efficient? A dark archon, or 5 sairs while wasting storms from a High Templar?
As for the "good zerg," have you been watching games, or generally knowledged about pro-starcraft at all, you would see that zergs are more than willing to make this trade (Mutas for sniping HTs), because the protoss army is powerless against the zerg mid-game army without Storm.
Crosairs can be an alternative, but all that gas you use is effectively 3 less High Templar. Again, we're not talking about adding a Dark Archon into a 5 sair build, but replacing the 5 sairs with the Dark Archon.
I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
Timing. Maybe I'm "ignorant", but I see no timing issues at all in the build. Research Mael after Storm, and push out. Care to enlighten me as why this is disasterous?
If DA is the next big thing, then protoss players should totally go mind controlling overlords for detection. That way they can skip the robo tech branch completely, freeing up even more gas for templars of all kinds of flavors!
On October 19 2009 04:50 okum wrote: If DA is the next big thing, then protoss players should totally go mind controlling overlords for detection. That way they can skip the robo tech branch completely, freeing up even more gas for templars of all kinds of flavors!
If MC research didn't cost as much as a robo, and gathering 150 energy didn't take so long, and the DA wouldn't lose all it's shields in the process and shuttles would be made from stargates, then MAYBE it would be worth it.
In reality though, since you'd have to basically get a bunch of DAs just for MCing (overlords can be scourged too. They take 2 scourges but aren't cloaked instead, and 2 scourges are built quite a bit faster than the time it takes to charge 150 energy) it would cost more than getting robo tech, which you also need for harrassment (HT/DT/Zeal drop), and later for reavers.
I would definately get MC a bit before the map is mined out, though, if the game is likely to become a stalemate.
How about dark archon/reaver to counter early hydra busts? It would obiously be a tech build, but you maybe could have a dt harass/distract while you get to the tech.
On October 19 2009 07:46 caldo149 wrote: I want to see a progamer do a Reaver + Dark Archon(Maelstrom) drop to destroy drones. That would be amazing.
lol I was daydreaming something similar today (Maelstrom and then Storm on drones)... but maybe you can pull that off in late game with a lot of things going on in the map.... mid game is just too much resource intensive for not dying to mass hydras.
and to the guy above you 2-3 seconds is what maelstrom lasts...
not really "cost effectiveness" but the timing, can toss get the timing for that? upgrade storm first? or maelstrom? if you up storm first do you get maelstrom in time? or if you up maelstrom first, can you get storm in time for a hydra push?
nal_ra: ... and here it starts. All those mutalisks need to do is stack up and kill the templars regardless of dragoon and cannon fire... as a Zerg, even if you make mutalisks like that, it's not a waste of gas. When fights occur amongst basic units such as zealots and dragoons vs hydralisks, zerglings and lurkers, there is absolutely no way a Protoss can win against Zerg. The reason why mutalisks come out later in the game to kill templars is to do a trade. In example, 10-11 mutalisks cost 1000-1100 gas. If they kill four high templars, the templars only cost the Protoss 600 gas. However, the templars are the core of the Protoss strategy. If the Zerg trades the mutalisks for the templars, then the Zerg is absolutely on the winning end of the trade.
I don't think anyone on this forum would consider themselves a greater authority on this game than nal_ra.
nal_ra: ... and here it starts. All those mutalisks need to do is stack up and kill the templars regardless of dragoon and cannon fire... as a Zerg, even if you make mutalisks like that, it's not a waste of gas. When fights occur amongst basic units such as zealots and dragoons vs hydralisks, zerglings and lurkers, there is absolutely no way a Protoss can win against Zerg. The reason why mutalisks come out later in the game to kill templars is to do a trade. In example, 10-11 mutalisks cost 1000-1100 gas. If they kill four high templars, the templars only cost the Protoss 600 gas. However, the templars are the core of the Protoss strategy. If the Zerg trades the mutalisks for the templars, then the Zerg is absolutely on the winning end of the trade.
I don't think anyone on this forum would consider themselves a greater authority on this game than nal_ra.
I don't think anyone's arguing against the fact that trading mutas for temps, even at a high cost, is bad for zerg. It's easy to see that zealot/goon army just melts against any mixed mid-game zerg army.
The question is how do the protoss counter? The pros haven't been able to pull any DA build successfully on TV. I'm sure they've tried various timings of DAs in practice. It seems that as of right now, tosses are trying for various timing attacks before the big hydra/muta ball rolls out. Rather than any sort of new tech.
A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.- I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it?
Which apparently is incorrect according to nal_ra.
Okay you guys are tiring the fuck out of me. I stated in previous posts that YOU HAVE TO MAKE 1-2 SAIRS WITH CURRENT P BUILDS ANYWAY. Thus making 3 more so you have about 4-5 is +300 gas. PLEASE read what I said.
Again: READ WHAT I SAID - I'll repeat it, one last time and slowly. If you trade all your mutalisks to snipe 2-3 templars (2-3 is all you get if there is massive sairs + good storms, AGAIN!!!) SUCKS. Of course I know if you can trade 11 mutas for like 6-7 Templars (Bisu vs Shine, Hyuk vs Stork) then OBVIOUSLY protoss loses the game. If those 4 Templars are all you have and you'll lose them, that's fucking bad news obviously. But really, if you lose all your templars ... if you have psi and sairs... YOUR FAULT, can't repeat it often enough. Point is BOTH Stork and Bisu were surprised by the muta switch because they did not fucking scout it and have ZERO protection (atleast that was the case in Bisu's game) except 3-4 Dragoons for his Templars... OF COURSE this is a good trade for Zerg then. However you shouldn't let this sort of conduct happen. Proper scouting = thx.
Koreasilver: I just watched the Stork/Hyuk part u highlighted. You don't seem to get WHAT I SAID not vice versa. Tell me, where's the corsairs protecting those Temps? RIGHT. NO WHERE. Even I could have killed those Templars with mutalisks. Obviously sniping is fucking easy if P has no corsairs.
Edit2: Spinesheath: Denying the protoss' 3rd base is a stupid thing to achieve, cause most protoss go for heavy 7-8 gate macro first up anyway cause you can NOT take a too early 3rd against those kind builds Zerg is playing nowadays. Which is basically one of the core weaknesses of protoss right now.
EPT
