EPT[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 20
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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BanZu
United States3329 Posts
On October 25 2009 00:24 Ota Solgryn wrote: But you just disregard my argument of making muta herassment for the most of a game against a terran, where one slipup will cost you the game. Zergs can do this so toss' should be able to micro one unit, even though they have to be aware all the time. Comparing microing mutas to microing HTs is a pretty bad comparison. 1. Mutas can fly, HTs cannot 2. Mutas are pretty quick, HTs are not 3. Mutas do not have to worry about bumping into/being blocked by other units, HTs do 4. Mutas take a while to take down, HTs do not 5. Mutas have been "specialized" as a special sniping group, HTs have to stick with a clump of units. Microing mutas is not equivalent to microing HTs, no matter how much you try to argue that point. Just trying to show that it's stupid to believe that microing HTs is as easy as microing mutas and that Protoss players should be able to do it just as easily. Not saying that it's impossible to do it, just that it's not possible to the extent of muta micro. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 25 2009 05:56 BanZu wrote: Comparing microing mutas to microing HTs is a pretty bad comparison. 1. Mutas can fly, HTs cannot 2. Mutas are pretty quick, HTs are not 3. Mutas do not have to worry about bumping into/being blocked by other units, HTs do 4. Mutas take a while to take down, HTs do not 5. Mutas have been "specialized" as a special sniping group, HTs have to stick with a clump of units. Microing mutas is not equivalent to microing HTs, no matter how much you try to argue that point. Just trying to show that it's stupid to believe that microing HTs is as easy as microing mutas and that Protoss players should be able to do it just as easily. Not saying that it's impossible to do it, just that it's not possible to the extent of muta micro. you really didnt understand his point... people argue that is hard to control the Dark Archor (not the HT) and he answers that if zerg can manage to harass with muta and macro with out so much troubles then a protoss should be able to maelstrom/storm some units without so much trouble, which is logically correct but as players havent use DA then it is difficult until you get used to it. | ||
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Suc
Australia1569 Posts
If only Violet's templars had energy/ an archon was close, but great example of how DAs can be used. If you watch a minute further, you will also see a large group of hydras maelstromed, helping to save his expo. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
actually, that might even be true.. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=96705 | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On October 25 2009 05:40 Nevuk wrote: A certain game in the MST last night involved Dark Archons, and they weren't an effective counter to the mutalisks because the player only made 1 and it couldn't cover both his expos and temps -it was sort of a guessing game. Also, it was difficult for him to kill maelstrom'd mutas after losing his sairs. 3-4 dark archons and 3 - 4 sairs are probably what's necessary to stop it reliably. To be fair, the timing of the DAs in that game was before temps. So he didn't have storm when the mutas came. Then again, it seemed like Storm was REALLY late. So maybe he forgot to upgrade it. But the zerg player definitely still took advantage of the fact that mutas can simply dodge the DA and attack elsewhere instead. There's still definitely the mobility difference. But personally, I thought the DA definitely worked pretty well. | ||
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TT1
Canada10104 Posts
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lac29
United States1485 Posts
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 25 2009 13:25 lac29 wrote: Hiding HT in shuttles would be kinda cool, then unload for storms when mutas are mael'd. or get sniped by scourge as everybody is telling you guys it will go... a shuttle without corsairs is dead to scourge and if you have 2-4 Hts in there is a huge loss in a PvZ... | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 25 2009 12:36 iamtt1 wrote: i tried going da vs mondragon in a cw... lets just say it didnt go too well It would help us more if you at least told us the reason why you lost. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On October 25 2009 07:41 RaptorX wrote: you really didnt understand his point... people argue that is hard to control the Dark Archor (not the HT) and he answers that if zerg can manage to harass with muta and macro with out so much troubles then a protoss should be able to maelstrom/storm some units without so much trouble, which is logically correct but as players havent use DA then it is difficult until you get used to it. | ||
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TT1
Canada10104 Posts
On October 25 2009 16:53 spinesheath wrote: It would help us more if you at least told us the reason why you lost. didnt get 100 energy in time on my da to maelstorm so i was stuck with 1 arch and my cannons.. which were totally useless against the mut micro harass | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
On October 25 2009 00:24 Ota Solgryn wrote: But you just disregard my argument of making muta herassment for the most of a game against a terran, where one slipup will cost you the game. Zergs can do this so toss' should be able to micro one unit, even though they have to be aware all the time. Again, zergs may harass terrans with mutas for a large part of the game, but they don't generally 'slip-up' when they are paying attention.. they slip-up because they're paying attention to something else.. your whole 'even though they have to be aware all the time' is a really big if. Like saying 1 marine counters a lurker even though they have to dodge spines. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 26 2009 01:07 iamtt1 wrote: didnt get 100 energy in time on my da to maelstorm so i was stuck with 1 arch and my cannons.. which were totally useless against the mut micro harass You are not doing it right, or thinking about it right. The dark archon is not to stop muta harrass at either of your bases, main or expo. Let alone it does not affect your amount of cannons, resources used on templar, or anything else. You still keep up corsair production as needed to stop mutas, and still keep a templar back with a few cannons at your base vs a mutabackstab. Building the DA did not kill you in your game from how you described it, and if you did, then you're missing the point of why you're building it. The maelstrom is NOT for stopping harrass on your bases. You simply died as you would have had you not built the DA either way vs mondragon. Let alone, it's a practiced timing, not something you get after a few games. Terrans did not learn vessel usage in tvp after a few games, it took a bit to start using them, same for defilers pre-savior. it takes practice, did everyone see the maelstrom kal did in that pvz somoene linked in this thread? He maelstromed his own damn zealots in front of lurkers LOL. That's because of horrible decision making on his part to warrant 100 energy there to stop 1 lurker from burrowing. Just as artosis has described, as well as others about korean progamers, they do act like fucking robots a lot of the time, it's usually others that innovate stuff, or the original group of progamer minds like oov, boxer, and such that think something up. korean progamers are NOT good when it comes to things outside the box or unusual game scenarios, let alone when something new is introduced adapting on the fly. that horrible kal maelstrom was an example of a wasted maelstrom and a bad decision of when to use it because he hasn't used the unit enough. | ||
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fc
19 Posts
Its the question if u intended to go Bisu style anyway, means building 2 dts for harrass or not. If u are going to build the dts anyway, the DA costs u 100/100 which is even less then 1 sair. Means u can have 1 DA with mael, 1 extra probe and 4 corsairs at the same costs of the 5 Corsairs Infernal suggested. In that case the DA build is far superior since u can leave ur 4 sairs in ur base to defend muta harrass while the DA protects ur HTs from sniping. And 4 sairs + 3 cans @ each nex should be enough to defend any kind of muta harrass. If not, i doubt that 5 sairs would do. If u didnt go for dts however, the thing looks different. In that case the cost for the DA would be 350/300 which is nearly the cost of 3 corsairs. This means u will have the DA and 2 Corsairs compared to 5 Corsairs in Infernals solution. 2 Corsairs wouldnt help much against muta harrass means u will have to stay @ home with ur army or to invest in extra cannons. In both cases a disadvantage compared to the 5 sair solution. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 27 2009 20:32 fc wrote: As far as i get the discussion between Infernal and spinesheath, there is only one question that need to be answered to decide which counter u want to play, more sairs, or DA. Its the question if u intended to go Bisu style anyway, means building 2 dts for harrass or not. If u are going to build the dts anyway, the DA costs u 100/100 which is even less then 1 sair. Means u can have 1 DA with mael, 1 extra probe and 4 corsairs at the same costs of the 5 Corsairs Infernal suggested. In that case the DA build is far superior since u can leave ur 4 sairs in ur base to defend muta harrass while the DA protects ur HTs from sniping. And 4 sairs + 3 cans @ each nex should be enough to defend any kind of muta harrass. If not, i doubt that 5 sairs would do. If u didnt go for dts however, the thing looks different. In that case the cost for the DA would be 350/300 which is nearly the cost of 3 corsairs. This means u will have the DA and 2 Corsairs compared to 5 Corsairs in Infernals solution. 2 Corsairs wouldnt help much against muta harrass means u will have to stay @ home with ur army or to invest in extra cannons. In both cases a disadvantage compared to the 5 sair solution. I wouldn't necessarily call it a disadvantage compared to corsairs. Sure the DA is more expensive if you don't get early DTs anyways, but to compensate for it, your army is stronger than it would be if you had made many corsairs (since a DA adds at least a bit to your army strength in any case, sairs only against mutas). I can't say it is better, either, but I don't think we can clearly say which is superior yet. I've seen some muta backstabs even with 5 corsairs around lately, and often progamers can only control either their army or their corsairs (either the corsairs idle somewhere or get slaughtered by a group of hydras while the toss controls his army. A DA would at least be in the same location than your army, which obviously makes it easier to keep it under control. | ||
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fc
19 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
From there on, you will either take a defensive position that protects all your bases - you can do that because you can match the zerg's army because you haven't lost your HTs. Or you will go on the offensive, which is one of the best defences. Since we assume that your army is about as strong as the zerg army if the zerg didn't spend money on mutas (if it isn't you better would be in a defensive position), we can assume that it is significantly stronger that a zerg army with 12-15 less hydralisks (roughly the cost of 9-11 mutas). Thus you should be able to do at least as much damage to the zerg as his backstab does to you. If the game progesses you can always add corsairs to defend against mutas. Also don't forget: If you make 5 corsairs and the zerg sees this, he can simply add scourge. 5 corsairs + 1-2 cannons still have a hard time dealing with 9-11 mutas + 4-6 scourge. 5 corsairs don't suddenly make you invulnerable. 5 corsairs + storms + goons or archs might make HT sniping ineffective, but 5 corsairs on their own are barely as strong. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 28 2009 00:32 spinesheath wrote: At first you secure your 3rd base. You should be able to defend anything from that position, even without 5 corsairs. From there on, you will either take a defensive position that protects all your bases - you can do that because you can match the zerg's army because you haven't lost your HTs. Or you will go on the offensive, which is one of the best defences. Since we assume that your army is about as strong as the zerg army if the zerg didn't spend money on mutas (if it isn't you better would be in a defensive position), we can assume that it is significantly stronger that a zerg army with 12-15 less hydralisks (roughly the cost of 9-11 mutas). Thus you should be able to do at least as much damage to the zerg as his backstab does to you. If the game progesses you can always add corsairs to defend against mutas. Also don't forget: If you make 5 corsairs and the zerg sees this, he can simply add scourge. 5 corsairs + 1-2 cannons still have a hard time dealing with 9-11 mutas + 4-6 scourge. 5 corsairs don't suddenly make you invulnerable. 5 corsairs + storms + goons or archs might make HT sniping ineffective, but 5 corsairs on their own are barely as strong. Actually 5 corsairs are pretty damn invulnerable to scourge assuming the sairs have +1 and are shooting them immediately. | ||
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