On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote: What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
actually if you are playing defensive as you will be you will get DA with energy just in time to maelstrom any group of harassing mutas and leave them vulnerable to the cannons (which of course you will do in gratuitous amounts... right?)
The main problem with this is that your natural expansion is going to be a bit late if he is good at stopping it, not to mention that your 3rd is going to be ultra late when he switches to hydras...
So this is a very defensive play and I guess puts protoss in a worse position than going for the usual 3-4 corsairs which keep the hydras at home for little longer so you can get a decent amount of units...
That's if and only if you do the following: -Ignore +1 upgrade -Ignore Cosair Tech -Rush Templar Archives -Skip extra cannons for faster gateways
3 Hatch muta comes typically when you have 2 corsair out. There's no way you will have a DA ready for maelstrom at this time without the other four things to occur. (which is incredibly risky)
On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote: What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
actually if you are playing defensive as you will be you will get DA with energy just in time to maelstrom any group of harassing mutas and leave them vulnerable to the cannons (which of course you will do in gratuitous amounts... right?)
The main problem with this is that your natural expansion is going to be a bit late if he is good at stopping it, not to mention that your 3rd is going to be ultra late when he switches to hydras...
So this is a very defensive play and I guess puts protoss in a worse position than going for the usual 3-4 corsairs which keep the hydras at home for little longer so you can get a decent amount of units...
That's if and only if you do the following: -Ignore +1 upgrade -Ignore Cosair Tech -Rush Templar Archives -Skip extra cannons for faster gateways
3 Hatch muta comes typically when you have 2 corsair out. There's no way you will have a DA ready for maelstrom at this time without the other four things to occur. (which is incredibly risky)
I was answering to the guy that talked about 2gate no Stargate build... so according to him you are basically dropping the corsairs to go DA or delaying it by much, which I personally dont think is the best option since as I mention puts you in a very defensive position... I tried the build and I won the game but I found myself in a predicament: You have to strike hard and fast before your first expo or else you will have a hell of a time trying to expand the first AND the second time....
the OP was about using the existing FE > Corsair > Archives build without modifying it, so we are saying that you *should* have 1-2 corsairs for scouting and harassing a bit, but you dont have to critical mass them since you have a DA for that purpose, which sounds nice in paper but we have yet to see it in action.
On October 28 2009 04:33 FabledIntegral wrote: It's pointless not to get +1 if you're planning on making 5 corsairs.
PS. On a more happy note, happy birthday.
Thanks, though it's still ~160 minutes until my birthday here in Germany
I personally would get +1 and at least 6 corsairs if I would try to do anything but scouting and support with them. But that obviously is by far more expensive than a DA, you could get 2 DAs instead, basically, and keep one at home for defense. Or whatever else comes to your mind. So you can't compare a 1 DA build with a 5 corsair with +1 build unless you take the higher price for the corsairs into account.
Although they are still arguably much more effective than DA at the same time. They aren't equivalent, imo at least. For example, Corsairs greatly hinder Zerg's ability to place OL's all over hte map for scouting. THere's much more but I'm in class atm. Of course the DA has its own uses as seen with the maelstrom of other units as well, but Sairs also provide constant scouting as well as forcing Zerg to constantly build scourge, using up larvae and costs gas.
You still have a few corsairs, so you still have scouting and you can deal with overlords scouting in the proximity of your base. If you want to be able to do that even with muta/scourge around, you will need to spend a LOT of money on corsairs. That results in a very defensive/harrassment oriented build, which we mostly see on maps with a safe 3rd and good harrassment options like outsider. You simply can't muster the units to beat a 5+ hatch hydra/lurk/ling army in the open field if you spend so much money on corsairs.
I definitely don't agree that corsairs are more effective than DAs. They work completely differently, and using those units effectively requires two completely different gameplans. Obviously corsairs are better if you focus on air superiority and harrassment, but DAs are certainly better if you try match the zerg's army before your 3rd kicks in.
So you're saying you still already have a few corsairs? So building 3 more isn't exactly much. Out of curiosity, are you forgoing the templar energy upgrade in order to tech maelstrom in time? Templar energy is absolutely critical in ensuring your templars have enough energy.
Every game I've seen with DA now the mutas have just danced around them. Even if the mutas get maelstromed, they either have managed to take out a few templar before dying or they don't even get stormed because templar aren't near. Mutas will be much more effective harassing your base as a result without corsairs. The DA really only feels to be strong when you actually push out, which Sairs can accomplish the same thing really. DA just feel so situational, although I feel that many progamers are currently testing them out (although with terrible results) so we'll be able to see how it turns out soon.
lol @ that maelstrom, horrible maelstrom. Apparently, progamers do not have the common sense to realize you do not have to 100% insta-shove your maelstrom the second you see the muta group (talking about first maelstrom of the game where he maelstroms mutas where archons will not be able to reach...)
On October 31 2009 10:02 avilo wrote: lol @ that maelstrom, horrible maelstrom. Apparently, progamers do not have the common sense to realize you do not have to 100% insta-shove your maelstrom the second you see the muta group (talking about first maelstrom of the game where he maelstroms mutas where archons will not be able to reach...)
Pretty much.
Even exposing the DA if you can't get a good one off right away may be a good idea. Just knowing that you have it may help prevent harrass for fear of losing the mutas.
Then again, they know you got one so you have less of a ground army to attack with. ALthough a good maelstrom should be able to counter...
Showing the Zerg that you have a Dark Archon sounds like it can only be to your disadvantage, unless you don't actually have mana for maelstrom and are just trying to scare his mutas away. (Which would be a HILARIOUS prevention technique for templar sniping, incidentally.) If you have the ability to eat his mutalisk if they come near, you want them to come near. Then he won't have any mutalisk.
Yeah, I think trying to hide the DA as much as you can until you use maelstrom is good. The chance of surprising and killing 9+ mutas is too good an opportunity to squander by trying to 'scare away' muta harass by intentionally showing your DA to your opponent.
The DA is a trap. Traps work when they are correctly sprung. It's hard to keep your giant red ball hidden, but don't go intentionally showing it needlessly.
On October 29 2009 07:35 FabledIntegral wrote: So you're saying you still already have a few corsairs? So building 3 more isn't exactly much. Out of curiosity, are you forgoing the templar energy upgrade in order to tech maelstrom in time? Templar energy is absolutely critical in ensuring your templars have enough energy.
Every game I've seen with DA now the mutas have just danced around them. Even if the mutas get maelstromed, they either have managed to take out a few templar before dying or they don't even get stormed because templar aren't near. Mutas will be much more effective harassing your base as a result without corsairs. The DA really only feels to be strong when you actually push out, which Sairs can accomplish the same thing really. DA just feel so situational, although I feel that many progamers are currently testing them out (although with terrible results) so we'll be able to see how it turns out soon.
3 corsairs cost MORE than 2 DTs and the maelstrom research. Has been said a thousand times.
Yes you are possibly skipping the HT energy upgrade, depending on the timing of the DA. But since your HTs have more storms ready because they didn't storm mutas and didn't die, that shouldn't be such a big impact. You are getting energy right afterwards, and maelstrom is a fast research.
you know it takes so many conditions for DA to work.
you have to actually hit a good one so that they all get caught and you better be able to kill them or else they'll just fly away while you just wasted tons.
EPT
