EPT[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 23
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 10 2009 17:33 Rucky wrote: you know it takes so many conditions for DA to work. you have to actually hit a good one so that they all get caught and you better be able to kill them or else they'll just fly away while you just wasted tons. If you hit one muta, you'll hit them all. Assuming the mutas are stacked. If they are not, they are unlikely to succeed at HT sniping. Also, since it's about protecting HTs, you'll have HTs there. Kinda obvious. If you go for the DA timing I suggest, storm will be ready, and if you don't have units to finish off the last few HP the mutas have, you'll have another storm. Obviously it takes a bit of practice, but from what I see in progames, controlling sairs and an army at the same time seems to be much more demanding than only controlling an army that has DA support (taking into account that people aren't used to DAs, but use sairs in almost every single pvz). Also, HT sniping effectively isn't very easy either. Zergs managed to learn it, so I am confident that protosses are able to learn how to use a DA effectively. | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
for those who wanted pro-gamers poking in to that, you just got a grasp of what we are talking about... Those two maelstroms were game deciding... proving that, DA > Corsair against templar sniping, AND DA > Corsair in middle game battle such as killing hydras to kick zergs ass... I just loved how after the first maelstrom the game went down hill for zerg who couldnt stop getting stormed over and over... it was like those templars had infinite energy. :D Now I do agree that DA cant be on time for 3hatch mutas, and that it will take a time to get used to it, but I am positive that this will be the new trend against 3hatch muta > 5hatch hydra style, is just too powerful if correctly executed. I guess zergs will now try to find a way to bust protoss BEFORE the DA has enough energy, so I guess there will be much more early aggression from zergs part from now on. Hyuk vs Violet... Favorited. :D | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Perfect execution of a game-ending move. | ||
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gameguard
Korea (South)2131 Posts
In this case, Violet gave up the third which let Hyuk know that protoss is massing one massive mid game army. The natural reaction to this would be to go and try to snipe the templars which delay's the tosses push, which gives a massive advantage to the zerg who's economy is just about to kick in. Im sure violet knew this and was paying extra careful attention to try and land the maelstorm in that time frame. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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chekyosikz
United States24 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
And when you see the VOD 3-4 times like i did you can see that Violet is checking EVERYWHERE looking for those mutas... which means, if the zerg manages to keep mutas out of your sight you can get in troubles... You can see how violet sacrifices 2 sairs in search of the mutas and was not pushing out until he catch them, notice that that DA was never alone and by alone I mean it was always with minimum 2 HTs, so if you forget about those little details your life can become a pain in the ass. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On November 11 2009 05:04 RaptorX wrote: I think that even though it is clear that DA > Corsair for pushing instead of harassing each unit have its place and mixing DA in to the group makes something little bit more hard... like Scouting. And when you see the VOD 3-4 times like i did you can see that Violet is checking EVERYWHERE looking for those mutas... which means, if the zerg manages to keep mutas out of your sight you can get in troubles... You can see how violet sacrifices 2 sairs in search of the mutas and was not pushing out until he catch them, notice that that DA was never alone and by alone I mean it was always with minimum 2 HTs, so if you forget about those little details your life can become a pain in the ass. everything else in pvz balances on the razors edge why not DA management too | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On November 11 2009 05:15 TheAntZ wrote: everything else in pvz balances on the razors edge why not DA management too Because muta harass is earlier and harder than any harass a toss can do on early-mid game... also killing 1 base of the zerg doesnt insta-kill him, which means even though zerg has more to do he is in a better position 60% of the time, you cannot say the same of a protoss who just lost his nat... Toss has to be on his toes (no pun intended) all the time. Note that im not saying that DA's is going to give more things to do to the Toss since I already said that maelstrom is like storm and even faster so there is nothing new on that and is not so "apm intensive" as some claim it would be. What I am saying is that Toss will have something else to worry about, namely: mutas avoiding your main attack to go and harass somewhere else, and that means protoss MUST have good scouting skills, and not everybody has the multitasking required for that. Me for example, I am just a D+ Toss who doesnt have the experience and speed to deal with so many things at the same time. It IS difficult to know what zerg is doing, and then you have to add the fact that you have to spot his mutas to kill them off... So people with more experience might find that easy to do, but it gives more to worry about anyways, and that is my point. | ||
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bladeip
Macedonia11 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 11 2009 05:31 bladeip wrote: What if zerg switch to queens for sniping templars. Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ipoH9okXQ Dark archons are also the counter to queens. Feedback will kill them instantly. | ||
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metaldragon
United States251 Posts
4 queens with broodling cant pick off 4 HT easy in the same time frame and avoide the risk of mealstrom. if timed right you cold spread and broodling the HT and risk at the most 1 queen dying to feedback before it gets off its broodling. just killing 3 HT is enough for zerg to win the mid push. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 11 2009 06:10 metaldragon wrote: Queens can do the same thins as muta and faster/easier. 4 queens with broodling cant pick off 4 HT easy in the same time frame and avoide the risk of mealstrom. if timed right you cold spread and broodling the HT and risk at the most 1 queen dying to feedback before it gets off its broodling. just killing 3 HT is enough for zerg to win the mid push. Feedback has a longer range and uses half the energy of a maelstrom? If the zerg makes 9 or so queens, their push must come much later and they won't be able to do the sniping twice. | ||
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GreenManalishi
Canada834 Posts
On November 11 2009 05:31 bladeip wrote: What if zerg switch to queens for sniping templars. Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ipoH9okXQ It takes 150 energy to cast Spawn Broodlings, as well as the research, so the sniping would be slower. You also would either have to forgo the spire and not have any scourge out to deal with the corsairs, or you would have to add another tech building into your early game which means a smaller army. If you opt for the nest instead of a spire, you won't have any real harassment, will lose too many Overlords, and your tech will be spotted and the Protoss will counter it anyways. In either case, if the Protoss go for a push like Violets your Queens will no have the energy to snipe the Templar in time. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 11 2009 05:28 RaptorX wrote: Because muta harass is earlier and harder than any harass a toss can do on early-mid game... also killing 1 base of the zerg doesnt insta-kill him, which means even though zerg has more to do he is in a better position 60% of the time, you cannot say the same of a protoss who just lost his nat... Toss has to be on his toes (no pun intended) all the time. Note that im not saying that DA's is going to give more things to do to the Toss since I already said that maelstrom is like storm and even faster so there is nothing new on that and is not so "apm intensive" as some claim it would be. What I am saying is that Toss will have something else to worry about, namely: mutas avoiding your main attack to go and harass somewhere else, and that means protoss MUST have good scouting skills, and not everybody has the multitasking required for that. Me for example, I am just a D+ Toss who doesnt have the experience and speed to deal with so many things at the same time. It IS difficult to know what zerg is doing, and then you have to add the fact that you have to spot his mutas to kill them off... So people with more experience might find that easy to do, but it gives more to worry about anyways, and that is my point. If you are building corsairs to protect your HTs, you will have to keep those corsairs close to your HTs, obviously. So a muta backstab can still deal a lot of damage especially since you'll usually have less cannons than you would have if you opted for DA. And if you retreat your corsairs once the zerg threatens your nat/main, and don't realize that he already has decided to snipe HTs instead, you'll be in trouble too. So, even with corsairs you'll need good scouting. Now, the interesting thing is: Your DA is with your army, so your HTs are certainly safe as long as you are able to use the DA properly. So you can use your corsairs freely for whatever you want to do. I don't know why Violet scouted so aggressively. What could he have scouted? a 4th base? Not in the zerg's nat/main. Mutas? He is save from those if he keeps his sairs at home, since he was also warping additional cannons. Hive tech? Well maybe. That could have triggered an direct attack to deal the damage before hive is done. He knew that there were plenty of hydras and a bunch of lurk/ling. Mass muta? Unlikely, and he wasnt scouting very effectively if he was using for those. Drop? His scouting pattern did't seem like he was looking for one. So imo there is very little a zerg could do at this point that would require the toss to change his gameplan. It's nice to know where the mutas are so that you can intercept them, but it's not necessary for protecting your HTs because you have an additional sight range provided by your zealots/goons, and if your corsairs (he had 4 or 5 at that time) are used defensively and for scouting the proximity of your bases, you should be save from most muta backstabs. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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