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On October 28 2009 02:22 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 00:32 spinesheath wrote:
At first you secure your 3rd base. You should be able to defend anything from that position, even without 5 corsairs.
From there on, you will either take a defensive position that protects all your bases - you can do that because you can match the zerg's army because you haven't lost your HTs. Or you will go on the offensive, which is one of the best defences. Since we assume that your army is about as strong as the zerg army if the zerg didn't spend money on mutas (if it isn't you better would be in a defensive position), we can assume that it is significantly stronger that a zerg army with 12-15 less hydralisks (roughly the cost of 9-11 mutas). Thus you should be able to do at least as much damage to the zerg as his backstab does to you.
If the game progesses you can always add corsairs to defend against mutas.
Also don't forget: If you make 5 corsairs and the zerg sees this, he can simply add scourge. 5 corsairs + 1-2 cannons still have a hard time dealing with 9-11 mutas + 4-6 scourge. 5 corsairs don't suddenly make you invulnerable. 5 corsairs + storms + goons or archs might make HT sniping ineffective, but 5 corsairs on their own are barely as strong. Actually 5 corsairs are pretty damn invulnerable to scourge assuming the sairs have +1 and are shooting them immediately.
+1 was never part of the 5 corsair plan, that's another 100/100, and no zerg tries a backstab with scourge only - kinda pointless. So the mutas will soak up the first hits, and from there the corsairs are in danger.
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It's pointless not to get +1 if you're planning on making 5 corsairs.
PS. On a more happy note, happy birthday.
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I'd like to see Dark Archons being used more in PvZ, It makes things a bit more interesting...
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On October 28 2009 04:33 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's pointless not to get +1 if you're planning on making 5 corsairs.
PS. On a more happy note, happy birthday.
Thanks, though it's still ~160 minutes until my birthday here in Germany 
I personally would get +1 and at least 6 corsairs if I would try to do anything but scouting and support with them. But that obviously is by far more expensive than a DA, you could get 2 DAs instead, basically, and keep one at home for defense. Or whatever else comes to your mind.
So you can't compare a 1 DA build with a 5 corsair with +1 build unless you take the higher price for the corsairs into account.
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On October 28 2009 05:27 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 04:33 FabledIntegral wrote:
It's pointless not to get +1 if you're planning on making 5 corsairs.
PS. On a more happy note, happy birthday. Thanks, though it's still ~160 minutes until my birthday here in Germany I personally would get +1 and at least 6 corsairs if I would try to do anything but scouting and support with them. But that obviously is by far more expensive than a DA, you could get 2 DAs instead, basically, and keep one at home for defense. Or whatever else comes to your mind. So you can't compare a 1 DA build with a 5 corsair with +1 build unless you take the higher price for the corsairs into account.
Although they are still arguably much more effective than DA at the same time. They aren't equivalent, imo at least. For example, Corsairs greatly hinder Zerg's ability to place OL's all over hte map for scouting. THere's much more but I'm in class atm. Of course the DA has its own uses as seen with the maelstrom of other units as well, but Sairs also provide constant scouting as well as forcing Zerg to constantly build scourge, using up larvae and costs gas.
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but Sairs also provide constant scouting
they wont be able to scout when they have to protect the main + nat eco AND the hts in the army. Building no DA devotes the sairs completly do defending against mutas so they wont be able to do anything else as long as mutas are around.
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+1 is good period on sairs, perhaps toss just need to suck it up and get it most games anyways 
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On October 28 2009 09:37 avilo wrote:+1 is good period on sairs, perhaps toss just need to suck it up and get it most games anyways
aka -(2/3) templar
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On October 28 2009 09:37 avilo wrote:+1 is good period on sairs, perhaps toss just need to suck it up and get it most games anyways
I'm sure Stork got it just recently in that game where he had about 80 billion corsairs 
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On October 28 2009 09:52 Duckvillelol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 09:37 avilo wrote:+1 is good period on sairs, perhaps toss just need to suck it up and get it most games anyways I'm sure Stork got it just recently in that game where he had about 80 billion corsairs
yup he did..
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On October 28 2009 07:47 fc wrote:they wont be able to scout when they have to protect the main + nat eco AND the hts in the army. Building no DA devotes the sairs completly do defending against mutas so they wont be able to do anything else as long as mutas are around.
No you'll definitely be getting constant scouting, they are only crucial defending while pushing. "Buildng no DA" does not devote the sairs completely to defending vs mutas, as seen nearly the past year, when no one was buildnig DA. Yes you use them to still defend in your main, but when you play with sairs, you get scouting, it's that simple.
On October 28 2009 10:31 RaptorX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 09:52 Duckvillelol wrote:On October 28 2009 09:37 avilo wrote:+1 is good period on sairs, perhaps toss just need to suck it up and get it most games anyways I'm sure Stork got it just recently in that game where he had about 80 billion corsairs yup he did..
Gorush also got +3 carapace which made them TERRIBLE at killing overlords... he still managed nonetheless but those lords lasted forever.
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What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
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On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote:
What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
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Just asking but has Stork ever used DA in his pvz games?
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On October 28 2009 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 07:47 fc wrote:but Sairs also provide constant scouting they wont be able to scout when they have to protect the main + nat eco AND the hts in the army. Building no DA devotes the sairs completly do defending against mutas so they wont be able to do anything else as long as mutas are around. No you'll definitely be getting constant scouting, they are only crucial defending while pushing. "Buildng no DA" does not devote the sairs completely to defending vs mutas, as seen nearly the past year, when no one was buildnig DA. Yes you use them to still defend in your main, but when you play with sairs, you get scouting, it's that simple. Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 10:31 RaptorX wrote:On October 28 2009 09:52 Duckvillelol wrote:On October 28 2009 09:37 avilo wrote:+1 is good period on sairs, perhaps toss just need to suck it up and get it most games anyways I'm sure Stork got it just recently in that game where he had about 80 billion corsairs yup he did.. Gorush also got +3 carapace which made them TERRIBLE at killing overlords... he still managed nonetheless but those lords lasted forever.
Eh, he still killed them fast due to splash. Plus, Stork's plan was to transition to a ground army. Hence no FB and no further upgrade. Gorush actually got screwed because he anticipated carrier transition(hence greater spire and +3 carapace) and just got plain pwned by Stork's ground army.
So the moral of the story is? Go for gazillion corsairs so you never have to worry about the mutas.
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I think that the usage of DA has very little room for error. You either make a good maelstrom or non. Hence I sadly feel that corsair is still the way because its much more useful. Scouting, OL, scourge and muta killing.
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United States11393 Posts
On October 28 2009 12:51 lavion wrote:
Just asking but has Stork ever used DA in his pvz games?
He used them against GGPlay on Andro but that was one of the worst and most overrated games ever.
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On October 28 2009 14:13 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 12:51 lavion wrote:
Just asking but has Stork ever used DA in his pvz games? He used them against GGPlay on Andro but that was one of the worst and most overrated games ever.
Blasphemy! It is not overrated at all, it is one of the most epic games ever.
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On October 28 2009 15:00 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 14:13 Harem wrote:On October 28 2009 12:51 lavion wrote:
Just asking but has Stork ever used DA in his pvz games? He used them against GGPlay on Andro but that was one of the worst and most overrated games ever. Blasphemy! It is not overrated at all, it is one of the most epic games ever.
meh... the game was slow paced... and stork losing so much reavers didnt make it appealing either... (¬¬)
zerg attempting a drop against a toss that is going mass corsair was not funny and in overall it was just a normal PvZ with extended playing time... there are other games that we can consider Epic and this one is not one of them...
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On October 28 2009 12:17 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote:
What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately). That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
actually if you are playing defensive as you will be you will get DA with energy just in time to maelstrom any group of harassing mutas and leave them vulnerable to the cannons (which of course you will do in gratuitous amounts... right?)
The main problem with this is that your natural expansion is going to be a bit late if he is good at stopping it, not to mention that your 3rd is going to be ultra late when he switches to hydras...
So this is a very defensive play and I guess puts protoss in a worse position than going for the usual 3-4 corsairs which keep the hydras at home for little longer so you can get a decent amount of units...
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EPT
