EPT
And I was just stating random facts. Nukes are powerful and they are. Maelstorms are powerful and yes you can mael everything thrown at you. Ultras are beastly yes they are. Lockdowns are awesome you can lockdown everything.
[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 25
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
And I was just stating random facts. Nukes are powerful and they are. Maelstorms are powerful and yes you can mael everything thrown at you. Ultras are beastly yes they are. Lockdowns are awesome you can lockdown everything. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
As far as endgame PvZ goes however, DA's are almost always a good idea. Maelstorm is so awesome. Best Maelstorm Ever - Play at 1:12:50 | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
On November 11 2009 23:20 Floophead_III wrote: I was thinking, would including some DAs in a goon/reaver build increase the effectiveness of the build? As of now the biggest weakness I've seen with goon/reaver has been vulnerability to muta, DA can completely decimate mutas and screw over defilers later. I'm not too familiar with the correct goon/reaver builds as I almost never offrace except to stove people. Is this a viable tech inclusion and is there an inherent weakness in goon/reaver/DA? Probably not as decent zergs won't go for mutas but hydras and scourge mainly. That's how I deflect those strategies most of the time. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 11 2009 23:19 HaXXspetten wrote: Going DA has never really been a BAD thing, just risky. If it gets scouted, then the odds of acctually getting to use your DA is slim. If you DO manage to make it work, however, then it is a neat strategy. (Not to mention how cool DA's are, and I <3 'em) You are already using the DA by not being able to use it. By stopping the zerg from making mutas you already made sure your HTs are alive, which is the whole point of the DA. You don't kill off mutas worth 1k/1k, so you'll have to deal with stronger zerg forces, but at least not as strong as hydra with mutas, and you'll restrict the zergs options which makes it easier to counter his actions. | ||
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
On November 11 2009 18:58 Grobyc wrote: The nuke was barely of part of what made Boxer win that game. If you actually look, the nuke doesn't even really kill anything that makes a difference. + Show Spoiler + Nukes only do 500 damage, or 2/3s of the buildings health, depending on which is greater, but they don't really even shutdown expansions. In that game all the nukes did were force killer to pull drones from mining for ~10-15 seconds. It didn't kill the hatchery. It didn't kill part of killer's army. It didn't kill a line of sunkens. If the ~10-15 seconds of not mining makes up for the cost of the ghost tech and nukes, then sure, you may as well, but it relies on luck and how well the opponent reacts if you actually want to do the damage you think it would be intended to do(I.E. kill his army, kill sunk line, kill lots of drones). Honestly, I don't think ghosts have much, if any at all, use in TvZ. In TvP, you can still use ghosts to lockdown arbs/cars and EMP before nuking, basically destroying everything in the nukes range. Sorry for kind of going off topic I sincerely believe you are wrong in this. I think you are missing the whole point of the nuke. If you take into account that your opponent now has to keep watch for nukes, it has quite the psychological damage potential. Also, Boxer said in his last interview that he believes nukes are very powerful and useful, and it shows in his latest games (and his teammate's games). Bisu also clearly stated, in that same interview, that those nukes were part of Boxer's strategy and not just for show like a lot of people seem think. You can see he went for the covert ops very early on, when the observer spots the science facility lifting off and landing one hex to the left. And to keep on-topic, it is indeed always nice to see the people who trash talk without decent arguments having to eat their words when someone actually comes out and destroys people with some strategy. This happened right here in this thread, as a lot of you said DA's are not cost efficient, too micro intensive, will disrupt your timings, etc etc, all common rubbish and unthoughtful arguments, the same ones actually used before with the science vessel, arbiters and defilers as said. DA's will be used a lot from now, and I believe the same will eventually happen with ghosts, queens, etc. If only Boxer played more... He has the power to influence people. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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Falling
Canada11465 Posts
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
The DA user needs to have excellent scouting in order to see the mutas coming. Violet clearly emphasized that he had two observers out looking for the mutas. With the foreknowledge that mutas were coming, he easily maelstrom'ed them. A more careless/scoutless Protoss might actually get his DA sniped by the mutas before he could react or lose a few templars. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Check out how quick terrans react to mutas (immediately stimming and engaging), even if the terran has units in the middle and at his base. I am pretty confident that tosses can be similarly fast. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 11 2009 17:02 RaptorX wrote: of course sair > DA when it comes to scouting and ovie hunting but those things dont win the game... killing 9+ mutas allowing you to use almost unlimited storm will... @FabledIntegral if zerg goes only hydra/lurker or ling/luker will happen to them as happened before this build they are using... they will get totally fried by HT's... actually the current PvZ is revolving around killing protoss HTs (even sacrificing 1000/1000 for it...) so you cannot tell me that if they see the DA and stop doing mutas protoss arent in advantage some how... not to mention that the DA will maelstrom at least 2 packs of hydras who will surely die while protoss just continues to walk forward without losing so many units, compared to when he tries the same without HT's. And i did not say that DA is specifically designed to counter mutas, i said it is specifically designed to counter some zerg abilities... like the mobility they have over the protoss... so I am wrong in that one too? Stop saying that certain things don't win games. All these contribute to winning games. Do you know why one of the MAIN reasons toss used to lose vs Zerg? Lack of map information. Zerg could plant OL's over the map EVERYWHERE and have a maphack. Many corsairs prevent this. 2-3 corsairs do nothing. So in the process you are forfeiting map awareness. You have NO idea how large of a repercussion that is concerning current builds because it hasn't been explored yet. Should it be explored? Yes. Has it been? No, so stop stating as if facts. That's the entire point. Of course I can tell you if they stop mutas they could formulate another strategy - how dense is that question. You have no idea HOW the game is going to play out differently now that a DA is in the mix. And stop saying that it's in the build anyways, the two DT are NOT in the build that violet used, he did not try to harass with them and then merge them after harassing. He warped them immediately. That is a difference already. I'm not saying the DA isn't beneficial. It very well might be necessary for Protoss to adapt. But ONE GAME DOESN'T PROVE SHIT. It was vs Hyuk as well, despite being on a hot streak, he is a very questionable player, AND he probably hasn't practiced vs DA much. You're not addressing the fact either that you're using one game to back your findings and are dismissing several others that portray the opposite. Lastly, as said you have no idea what could develop. What if going DA and lack of a respectable amount of corsairs with the +1 upgrade means that in fact going LOTS of muta and backstabbing the main is viable with a sunken/lurker defense. Is it? Probably not, but there are so many scenarios that you have to think of. Now that you don't have sairs to defend, you have to build an additional 2 cannons in your main and 1 cannon in your nat, delaying your third expansion, meaning that you're midgame push almost becomes an all-in in the sense that if you don't succeed you're stuck on 2 base.... Probably not viable, it's just so dumb to hear you coming to the conclusion that DA are now PROVEN to be the better strategy than corsairs, and that DA should almost invariably be used over Corsairs. EDIT: You're also not including things such as the fact without enough sairs shuttles will be more vulnerable to scourge, effectively limiting the potential of storm/dt/reaver drops. Another part of gameplay you've whisked over without addressing (although it had past my mind as well), another reason not to say it's proven DA > sairs. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:10 spinesheath wrote: If you don't get a maelstrom off before mutas snipe your DA, you are horribad. It takes at least 3 good hits for the mutas, your main focus at that time should be your army, and you'll have a sizeable army which allows you to spot the mutas quite early. Check out how quick terrans react to mutas (immediately stimming and engaging), even if the terran has units in the middle and at his base. I am pretty confident that tosses can be similarly fast. Hydras would snipe DA, not Mutas... haha. Hydras own Archons, who have 350/10, imagine vs Dark Archons, who have 200/25 and have hte nasty tendency to RUNNN up front. Archons only take like 37 hits or so to die and they die super fast to hydras, Dark Archons only take... ~27? Assuming they deal 5 dmg to hp instead of 10, if not, much sooner. As the DA is typically towards the front, you know that hydras could go in for shots (like they normally do even when the templars are alive) and buy time, and mutas wouldn't go rushing in BY THEMSELVES like what Hyuk did. I'm just coming up wiht scenarios, I love the DA unit (was my fav broodwar unit when I first started playing, but that was for mindcontrol, haha). | ||
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MrHickoryHam54
United States208 Posts
btw, i just have to tell this to u guys: #1 cause of death in USA is ppl getting slapped to death for complaining how their maelstroms dont freeze terran mech armies | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 12 2009 06:18 FabledIntegral wrote: Hydras would snipe DA, not Mutas... haha. Hydras own Archons, who have 350/10, imagine vs Dark Archons, who have 200/25 and have hte nasty tendency to RUNNN up front. Archons only take like 37 hits or so to die and they die super fast to hydras, Dark Archons only take... ~27? Assuming they deal 5 dmg to hp instead of 10, if not, much sooner. As the DA is typically towards the front, you know that hydras could go in for shots (like they normally do even when the templars are alive) and buy time, and mutas wouldn't go rushing in BY THEMSELVES like what Hyuk did. I'm just coming up wiht scenarios, I love the DA unit (was my fav broodwar unit when I first started playing, but that was for mindcontrol, haha). Read the post right above the one you quoted there. Obviously the muta sniping DA thing was a reply to that one. Did you ever consider the situation in which Hydras can snipe DAs? Yep, right in the midst of a big battle. Either you will have maelstromed the zerg's mutas before that, or he'll be too late to stop you from storming all his hydras, or he attacks with both mutas and hydras at the same time with awesome micro (storm dodging + HT sniping at the same time). If the toss is about the same level as the zerg, he should be able to keep his DA from moving a mile ahead of his main army, and should even be able to maelstrom the mutas anyways. If the zerg engages the toss with his main army and only uses his mutas afterwards, the HTs will already be merging into Archons, so there is very little he would gain from that. Hydras deal explosive damage, and both Archons and DAs are large units. So it's full damage from hydras on HP. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 12 2009 17:57 spinesheath wrote: Read the post right above the one you quoted there. Obviously the muta sniping DA thing was a reply to that one. Did you ever consider the situation in which Hydras can snipe DAs? Yep, right in the midst of a big battle. Either you will have maelstromed the zerg's mutas before that, or he'll be too late to stop you from storming all his hydras, or he attacks with both mutas and hydras at the same time with awesome micro (storm dodging + HT sniping at the same time). If the toss is about the same level as the zerg, he should be able to keep his DA from moving a mile ahead of his main army, and should even be able to maelstrom the mutas anyways. If the zerg engages the toss with his main army and only uses his mutas afterwards, the HTs will already be merging into Archons, so there is very little he would gain from that. Hydras deal explosive damage, and both Archons and DAs are large units. So it's full damage from hydras on HP. Concerning the DA snipe - my bad then, I just felt it obvious that the sniping in general would be from hydras. It doesn't have to be in the midst of a big battle, PvZ all the time the hydras go in to hit once then retreat, buying time as the toss pushes across the map. The zeals can't run too far ahead because goons/templars will lag behind, etc. So not at all. He doesn't have to snipe him in all one go, either way I'm talking about the potential of it. HT in the past have been sniped with hydras ALL the time, and they tend to lag BEHIND the army rather than in front like the DA. There's too much of a preconceived notion that the Zerg HAS to go in with mutas by themselves wayyy before the two armies engage. It's been like that currently simply because nothing has been stopping them from doing so. | ||
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mOnion
United States5657 Posts
it wasnt long ago when you'd go a whole season without seeing ONE, and i just saw like 6 rapid fire. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On November 13 2009 06:10 mOnion wrote: is it just me or have like 6 DA's been used this month in the pro league? it wasnt long ago when you'd go a whole season without seeing ONE, and i just saw like 6 rapid fire. It's definitely being experimented with to address the muta issue of sniping templar. Although I think the BIGGEST problem is actually the fact the Zerg can take such an easy third gas which allows for the easy accumulation of 900 gas for mutas to snipe the templar in tandem with lurker usage (all the while toss is on two gas). I wonder if HBR would be more balanced if the third didn't have a geyser but the fourth (mineral only) did. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Well, and DAs don't lag behind, but are right along with the zeals/archons. So they are potentially less exposed than HTs, especially when the whole army is on the move. If you a-move the DA together with other units past the enemy's units it will obviously be easy to snipe, but only if you actually are in a fight which causes zeals/archs to slow down and engage. Otherwise the DA won't be separated. If you control your army well, the DA should be in a good safe spot. Of course there will be times when you mess up, but the same is true for zerg (like having all your mutas die to storm when you let them stop for a few seconds). It's also very similar for terrans with the first vessel, you've got to be very careful with it. In a reaver/sair build you are way behind if you lose a corsair early on. Losing the first defilers in tvz can mean instant death. I don't see why being unable to 1a2a3a into victory is such a big thing. As I said, if the zerg doesn't engage with his mutas early, you'll be at an advantage in battles. Hopefully you don't misjudge the situation and waste your only maelstrom on 2 hydras, but you have a similar problem if you make corsairs do defend your HTs and don't have them near the HTs in that crucial moment. If the zerg tries to snipe HTs during the battle, it will be equally harder to micro for both players. | ||
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