On November 13 2009 06:30 spinesheath wrote: Well since it is so obvious (I wouldn't try try to get a DA with mutas either - unless I am sure the DA has no energy), you might wonder why I wrote about it in the first place. And find out why.
Well, and DAs don't lag behind, but are right along with the zeals/archons. So they are potentially less exposed than HTs, especially when the whole army is on the move. If you a-move the DA together with other units past the enemy's units it will obviously be easy to snipe, but only if you actually are in a fight which causes zeals/archs to slow down and engage. Otherwise the DA won't be separated. If you control your army well, the DA should be in a good safe spot. Of course there will be times when you mess up, but the same is true for zerg (like having all your mutas die to storm when you let them stop for a few seconds). It's also very similar for terrans with the first vessel, you've got to be very careful with it. In a reaver/sair build you are way behind if you lose a corsair early on. Losing the first defilers in tvz can mean instant death. I don't see why being unable to 1a2a3a into victory is such a big thing.
As I said, if the zerg doesn't engage with his mutas early, you'll be at an advantage in battles. Hopefully you don't misjudge the situation and waste your only maelstrom on 2 hydras, but you have a similar problem if you make corsairs do defend your HTs and don't have them near the HTs in that crucial moment. If the zerg tries to snipe HTs during the battle, it will be equally harder to micro for both players.
I responded to the Muta snipe in an apologetic tone - I didn't mean to criticize you for it.
I was just saying that DA's CAN be sniped, indeed very similar to how a defiler could get sniped and lose the game for Zerg or how a Vessel could get sniped and lose the game for Terran... it does happen, and it's just another risk you have to address when going the DA build. That was the point, at least.
Concerning the mutas, all I've been saying is that the Zerg can still harness them potentially well. Zerg still flies around Terran using his Mutalisks (at marginal efficiency) even when Vessels are around, which fuck up the Mutas quite badly. Zerg can still fly into the Toss main and attempt to snipe HT if it knows where the DA is, etc.
Maybe I'm playing devils advocate. I don't even really have too much of a problem with your logic, I'm just annoyed at claims (particularly that of RaptorX) that now claim with 2 successes with the DA and something like 3-4 fails, that the DA has been proven to be better than sairs.
I'm not angry or insulted or anything, just wanted to point out that this irrelevant talk could have been avoided
I disagree with those statements too, I've said multiple times that the DA isn't some miracle unit that suddenly makes protoss win 70% of the time. The DA use I suggest isn't aiming towards winning with that one push, but towards getting into a good position for the later stages of the game. DAs don't micro themselves, but the same is true for any other unit.
The DA deals with one of biggest problems in todays pvz very effectively. Of course it doesn't fix everything, but so far imo there hasn't been anything mentioned that would punish getting a DA so hard that it isn't viable to get a DA. Still, arguing with other people is a good way to spot serious issues. Especially if you (mechanically) suck with protoss like I do.
I'm just annoyed at claims (particularly that of RaptorX) that now claim with 2 successes with the DA and something like 3-4 fails, that the DA has been proven to be better than sairs.
ok...
First I would like to clarify that I dont say that DA's > Sairs all the time, I am talking about a specific task... stopping muta sniping.
from my post about the VOD:
proving that, DA > Corsair against templar sniping, AND DA > Corsair in middle game battle such as killing hydras to kick zergs ass...
Dragoons are better than Zealots to kill vultures... true or false..? I would say that it is true... Zealots are better than Goons to take sieged tanks... right? yes we know... Zealots sucks against lurkers but Goons work better against them... thats quite true...
Then why is it so controversial to state that DA are WAY better than Corsairs at stopping mutas from snipping HT's and that that particular vod shows WHY and is a good example of what the OP was talking about... I mean, why?
And is it not true that DA > Corsair against hydras since Corsairs cant really attack hydras but if you maelstrom a part of them you can kill them easily?... I mean c'mon...
Im not saying something so wrong that could make fable feel chills in his back every time I state that... like if I said that maelstrom is the best againts sieged tanks or something of the sort...
I am stating that DA > Corsair at stopping the muta snipes but at the same time I do acknowledge that Corsairs have their use and important play in PvZ... is just that DA will do much better at that particular task.
The most touchy point I do back up is that once you stop a bunch of mutas from sniping your HT's or in the case that zerg doesnt do mutas because of your DA then I do think Protoss are on a better possition... I would even say that they are in advantage, since as I pointed out you can use your storm whenever you like, how ever you like, as much as you want, which considering that zerg units take so much damage from it would put them in a more defensive/careful position than current PvZ where protoss is the one in a defensive position... but all of that depend on the players and all the other stuff so that is always subject of debate.
Everyone that accepts the DA statement is indirectly accepting the idea that DA would be better than corsairs in that particular task.... I still dont get it... where is the heretic part of my comment?
Dragoons are better than Zealots to kill vultures... true or false..? I would say that it is true... Zealots are better than Goons to take sieged tanks... right? yes we know... Zealots sucks against lurkers but Goons work better against them... thats quite true...
Then why is it so controversial to state that DA are WAY better than Corsairs at stopping mutas from snipping HT's and that that particular vod shows WHY and is a good example of what the OP was talking about... I mean, why?
Im not saying something so wrong that could make fable feel chills in his back every time I state that... like if I said that maelstrom is the best againts sieged tanks or something of the sort...
I am stating that DA > Corsair at stopping the muta snipes but at the same time I do acknowledge that Corsairs have their use and important play in PvZ... is just that DA will do much better at that particular task.
The most touchy point I do back up is that once you stop a bunch of mutas from sniping your HT's or in the case that zerg doesnt do mutas because of your DA then I do think Protoss are on a better possition... I would even say that they are in advantage, since as I pointed out you can use your storm whenever you like, how ever you like, as much as you want, which considering that zerg units take so much damage from it would put them in a more defensive/careful position than current PvZ where protoss is the one in a defensive position...
Everyone that accepts the DA statement is indirectly accepting the idea that DA would be better than corsairs in that particular task.... I still dont get it... where is the heretic parts of my comments?
You don't get it. It's because you have ONEEEEE example to support your claims. You're saying it is better for the midgame push situation. Toss should go DA as the standard build. We don't know that yet. Simple. Going DA means that Zerg doesn't have to build scourge or replace as many OL's, meaning extra larvae. It means you have to bulid more cannons at your main. It means you have significantly less scouting potential as singular sairs can be picked off by scourge. It means you have less protection for shuttles from scourge for storm drops. So many variables that affect gameplay. It's the last time I'm going to state it, but we've seen SEVERAL examples of DA maelstorming mutas and the toss losing because the Zerg still manages to get a few templar before the maelstorm or there is no storm to kill the maeled mutas in time. It's only if htey are all in PERFECT positioning, etc. Yes I realize they'll keep them together during the push but it's just SO many variables you aren't addressing.
well, the idea in the OP was that once you merged your DA and researched maelstrom you can continue with your normal game-play...
I dont think a DA will keep you from continue building Sairs as you want... your resources and everything else is the same, we are not telling you to change your whole standard play, I do believe and I am trying to slowly include DA's in to the standard build for that particular zerg playing type, and since usually you do those 2 DT's you can:
1) go straight to DA as violet did or 2) try to harass as you normally do and later on merge the DA who will help you in mid-game, as I have said before in the thread.
I do not need that VOD to prove that DA > Corsair against muta sniping... you know it because I have been explaining those things BEFORE that video... but that VOD is a perfect example of why, and I have repeated that over and over again... that VOD is about the WHY:
the answer in that VOD is that DA > Corsair "Because insta-stopping mutas is way better than hitting them over and over again... is quicker, more effective and compared to all the other vods where they try to use 8-10 corsairs to stop the sniping DA actually get things done, when lots of times mutas still snipe the HT's because they hit and run before the sairs can really kill them."
I did never say 'go and do what violet did', I am saying that you can see why is better. I didnt say it will win all the games but I do believe it will help more than sairs in mid-game battles.
On November 13 2009 06:10 mOnion wrote: is it just me or have like 6 DA's been used this month in the pro league?
it wasnt long ago when you'd go a whole season without seeing ONE, and i just saw like 6 rapid fire.
They read my thread obviously :p
Still amazing how many people are making DA vs corsair comparisons when in reality it is not as difficult as these people are making it out to be to end up with a DA in your army and still go for corsair production if you want.
that is not the point. The point of the DA is you can build a gateway based army, then after the mid-game transition back into whatever you want because prevention of temp sniping lets you have map control and an army that is not just vanilla (aka just goon/zeal/archon with no storm).
There are many of builds/strats that go 5-6+ corsairs, and usually those end up of course stopping muta easily because you have the corsairs...but then you still can get steamrolled on the ground.
The DA, neutralizing the mutas in a different way, so you can steamroll the Zerg on the ground, from there you can secure your third on maps where it is tough to do that, like HBR.
The key difference is the DA lets you secure the third and gain more mobility because you can engage the Zerg army if needed, and you will have enough units to take your third, whereas massive amounts of corsairs may reduce your army size too much to easily secure the third -> which then means you die anyways.
Think of the DA like a science vessel, or like a Templar, or like a defiler - that is how it is supposed to be used. Imagine Zerg before defilers, how everyone would probably think, "holy fuck it is impossible to consume little tiny Zerglings over and over, that will take soooo much APM while microing everything else and macroing."
Well, they learned to do it out of necessity, and a DA is infinitely easier to use as it is just 2 clicks to maelstrom a muta clump, and then it's served it's purpose.
The violet game posted is the FIRST, progame where the Protoss did not insta-shove his maelstrom the second he saw the mutas, as well as the first game where Protoss made sure to control his army to have templar/an archon nearby to clean up the mutas. Before this Violet game, progamers (as the macrobots they are they cannot handle new wrinkles as fast as say, foreigners would be able to) were just making bad decisions with their maelstrom, doing it when they had no templar/archon in range, because their coaches or themselves or whatever had a trigger in their head of "OMG MUTA CLUMP ME MAELSTROM NOW NOW NOW."
Violet showed a clearheaded and well executed maelstrom. Look at all the other games so far with DA's, they are LOLicious at how bad progamers were using maelstrom. They had the build and idea right, but were not using their heads.
you know what, I am discovering that I have comunication issues... avilo you just explained everything clear as water... thats what I have been trying to tell fable all along...
you standard build is not delayed, changed or ruined. you can do whatever you want be it mass sairs, goons, reavers. you will not insta-win or anything of the sort...
You are just replacing sairs for DA's to do that one stuff against mutas. You can still use your sairs for anything you want from scouting till protecting your base against backstabs or ovie hunting, is your choice... And yes, this last game was totally different than all the others, and yes it helped clearing out some myths like unit count, DA cost, scouting problems since if Violet was able to handle those things it means its possible... and again it shows why one unit is better than other in a specific scenario, while the other VOD's as avilo pointed out are so macro based that showed nothing relevant on the OP.
DA's for meta-game is kinda intelligent because thats all they're good for lol. psychological warfare. but then again, we need another nal ra or bisu to bring the use of maelstrom into the mainstream. thats the only way DA's can gain legitimacy because...
1. seriously why would u take a no-atk red useless ball over 2 invisible 40-dmg awesome units? u must be crazy, unless there are multiple DA's and they freeze an entire zerg army efficiently.
2. maelstrom is actually good, but no one is there to use it.
I'd like to mention that violet didn't merge his DTs immediately. He poked out of his base, made sure that the zerg knew he made DTs, and scared the hydras away.
On November 13 2009 08:59 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: DA's for meta-game is kinda intelligent because thats all they're good for lol. psychological warfare. but then again, we need another nal ra or bisu to bring the use of maelstrom into the mainstream. thats the only way DA's can gain legitimacy because...
1. seriously why would u take a no-atk red useless ball over 2 invisible 40-dmg awesome units? u must be crazy, unless there are multiple DA's and they freeze an entire zerg army efficiently.
2. maelstrom is actually good, but no one is there to use it.
Damage isn't everything. Defilers without plague don't deal any damage either, but they protect your units with swarm. DAs don't deal any damage but they protect your HTs - pretty much the most important units against 5 hatch hydra - from mutas. Also, with 5 hatch hydra, early overlord speed is standard because zerg doesn't want to spawn 50 hydras just to get them all killed by DTs. That's why you rarely see DTs in midgame past the initial harrass, and except for those used for scouting/denying expansions/drop harrass.
Dragoons are better than Zealots to kill vultures... true or false..? I would say that it is true... Zealots are better than Goons to take sieged tanks... right? yes we know... Zealots sucks against lurkers but Goons work better against them... thats quite true...
Then why is it so controversial to state that DA are WAY better than Corsairs at stopping mutas from snipping HT's and that that particular vod shows WHY and is a good example of what the OP was talking about... I mean, why?
Im not saying something so wrong that could make fable feel chills in his back every time I state that... like if I said that maelstrom is the best againts sieged tanks or something of the sort...
I am stating that DA > Corsair at stopping the muta snipes but at the same time I do acknowledge that Corsairs have their use and important play in PvZ... is just that DA will do much better at that particular task.
The most touchy point I do back up is that once you stop a bunch of mutas from sniping your HT's or in the case that zerg doesnt do mutas because of your DA then I do think Protoss are on a better possition... I would even say that they are in advantage, since as I pointed out you can use your storm whenever you like, how ever you like, as much as you want, which considering that zerg units take so much damage from it would put them in a more defensive/careful position than current PvZ where protoss is the one in a defensive position...
Everyone that accepts the DA statement is indirectly accepting the idea that DA would be better than corsairs in that particular task.... I still dont get it... where is the heretic parts of my comments?
You don't get it. It's because you have ONEEEEE example to support your claims. You're saying it is better for the midgame push situation. Toss should go DA as the standard build. We don't know that yet. Simple. Going DA means that Zerg doesn't have to build scourge or replace as many OL's, meaning extra larvae. It means you have to bulid more cannons at your main. It means you have significantly less scouting potential as singular sairs can be picked off by scourge. It means you have less protection for shuttles from scourge for storm drops. So many variables that affect gameplay. It's the last time I'm going to state it, but we've seen SEVERAL examples of DA maelstorming mutas and the toss losing because the Zerg still manages to get a few templar before the maelstorm or there is no storm to kill the maeled mutas in time. It's only if htey are all in PERFECT positioning, etc. Yes I realize they'll keep them together during the push but it's just SO many variables you aren't addressing.
About the shuttle part: If you have more mapcontrol, you don't have to play as defensively, and because of that you don't have to harrass so much because you'll be able to pressure the zerg with your main army. On some maps, for example HBR, you can use your army well to protect your shuttles, at least if you are dropping the zergs main. Obviously DA play is different from sair play, so you really shouldn't be comparing those so much. The question should be: Is it viable to go for a more map control oriented build instead of a harrass and timing attack oriented one as you would normally do with lots of corsairs, and if it is, is the DA viable for that? I'd clearly say it is, and I'd also say that corsairs are not as viable for that style of play.
I just wanted to say that the few times there has been a hidden DA built into tosses army I have gotten brutalized. Once all my mutas, once 5 lurkers and once he maelstormed my drones and stormed them =(
I just noticed something that I'd like to share in the violet vs hyuk game.
You see violet actually spread his observer out so that he knows exactly when/where the mutalisks are comming, and when they come he's practically waiting for a maelstrom to happen. I feel this is very important part of the strategy since you don't want to lose all your templars to surprise THEN have the maelstrom go off. Also DA moves much faster than HT, so your army will have to do some double-back to make sure they cover each other, possibly making your push slower.
Also if you notice violet's game plan, he did not take his 3rd early and he's basically doing a one base timing push, i think his strategy is along the line of "I roll out 1a2a3a and he'll try to defend, he won't kill my high-templars and it would be gg" And it was!
yeah, I mentioned once that this relies a lot on scouting to go well and that low level players like me are going to have some multitasking to add. For that reason I would say this is very difficult to pull off in the case the zerg goes harassing mode instead of attacking your main push ht's, cause you will have to know where his mutas are, as you could see in that game violet was scouting like hell as you pointed out.
I also think his 3rd was not totally delayed since he went to expand as he was rolling out as you could see, so it is a "I attack expand" kind of mentality. Actually for me he expanded a little bit earlier, because usually protoss waits to have zerg away from the middle of the map to be sure he wont lose it right away. In this game he went out and sent probe right away + some zealots after frying the mutas.
On November 21 2009 02:41 evanthebouncy! wrote: I just noticed something that I'd like to share in the violet vs hyuk game.
You see violet actually spread his observer out so that he knows exactly when/where the mutalisks are comming, and when they come he's practically waiting for a maelstrom to happen. I feel this is very important part of the strategy since you don't want to lose all your templars to surprise THEN have the maelstrom go off. Also DA moves much faster than HT, so your army will have to do some double-back to make sure they cover each other, possibly making your push slower.
Also if you notice violet's game plan, he did not take his 3rd early and he's basically doing a one base timing push, i think his strategy is along the line of "I roll out 1a2a3a and he'll try to defend, he won't kill my high-templars and it would be gg" And it was!
Nice pic. Shows once more how amazing Violet played in this game.
You have to slow your army down a bit to allow the HTs to follow anyways. There's not much to gain from attacking the zerg without HT support. And if you make the DA follow a HT (the frontmost one preferably) it will always be close.
It certainly wasn't a 1 base timing push, or is the natural considered part of your main base nowadays? And I also don't think he planned to end the game right there (as I have pointed out earlier). It is common practice to secure an expansion by having a strong push in the middle.
Bisu used dark archons in his game vs gorush tonight, not as spectacular as killing 11 mutas in one go, but just shows that DAs are being used more and more by pros. I will post the VOD when it gets uploaded.
this thread its visionary and shows how the community has growth, not only people with +2000 posts can aport new ideas and help the new ones, with the streams, youtube and all the circulating information the level of technics knowledge its rising faster than ever. Maybe now we can compete with the basic sc:bw knowledge of the average population in korea XD
I definitely think the DA is one of the keys to shaking up the current PvZ archetype, especially since Maelstrom is so good if you use it correctly, but, like many people before have said, the problem is that it just takes a lot of APM and practice. We need pro's to continue to do it and test it.
On January 11 2010 06:36 Stratos_speAr wrote: ... , the problem is that it just takes a lot of APM and practice...
I fail to see why does it takes too much APM. It takes the same to storm and nobody complains about that. Or microing a reaver/shuttle. Whats the big deal?
On January 11 2010 06:36 Stratos_speAr wrote: ... , the problem is that it just takes a lot of APM and practice...
I fail to see why does it takes too much APM. It takes the same to storm and nobody complains about that. Or microing a reaver/shuttle. Whats the big deal?
It takes about as much apm as an irradiate. Now don't tell me Protoss can't find the apm to do that when terrans have to constantly be irradiating throughout a whole TvZ.
EPT
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