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[I] Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ? - Page 27
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On January 11 2010 07:23 avaTar[ wrote: I fail to see why does it takes too much APM. It takes the same to storm and nobody complains about that. Or microing a reaver/shuttle. Whats the big deal? Too much? Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that phrase NEVER came up in my post... wait, lets check.... Nope, not once. It just takes more than what the current PvZ metagame calls for, something that will require a switch by pro's, which will take time. | ||
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Dillon1
118 Posts
Btw how do people hold a fast lurker contain? | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3509 Posts
The reason you open corsair is to not lose all your probes (on top of the scouting potnetial and overlord hunting, reducing Z s vision). Mutas are faster and around the time you need to defend your hts from being sniped by mutas, you only have one DA (possibly 2) and you cant defend your mineral lines as well as your hts. And it s risky as well because if you somehow miss the spell it s insta GG. At that stage of the game you dont have a lot of gas to spare. It s a very high risk and once you use your spell the DA is useless for a while. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 14 2017 11:49 WGT-Baal wrote: It has nice use as we saw in the ASL recently and it can certainly be useful in late game armies when Z has enough detection so dt are a little useless but going DA first (first as in instead of corsair) leaves you completely open to muta harass because DA are slow and big (and on the ground). The reason you open corsair is to not lose all your probes (on top of the scouting potnetial and overlord hunting, reducing Z s vision). Mutas are faster and around the time you need to defend your hts from being sniped by mutas, you only have one DA (possibly 2) and you cant defend your mineral lines as well as your hts. And it s risky as well because if you somehow miss the spell it s insta GG. At that stage of the game you dont have a lot of gas to spare. It s a very high risk and once you use your spell the DA is useless for a while. Maelstrom isn't really that 'risky', and will definitely catch mutalisks if they fly even close because DAs are the longest-ranged spell-casters in the whole game. They seldom see use in this capacity for a variety of reasons, but I'd never discourage someone from making them unless they were hurting their templar/archon timing, because DAs aren't quite as useful in ground engagements unless you have a few of them and then some kind of AoE units, like reavers or archons, to quickly kill all the paralyzed zerg units. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28873 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12043 Posts
On October 15 2017 05:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: in resource rich games, protoss players should make DA every pvz. not really for the maelstrom, feedbacking defilers itself is worth it. I'm also confident it's possible to successfully mix them in against zergs who like to do the mass hydra then 10 muta to snipe templars style of play, but it's not cool when the guy went lurker instead. Watching your game on Neo Medusa in Clash for Char for this was astounding. It was such a great game. EDIT: IIRC it was you, but I can't be certain it wasn't Naugrim hah | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28873 Posts
And yeah, feedback was amazing in that game, I remember hearing the sound of consume and scrambling to get my DA to the front asap. Sadly, it also showed the backside - I rushed for DA because I anticipated mutas to counter my non-sair build (and mutas are frequently favored on blue storm anyway), but as he instead went for fast lurkers, I ended up behind from the get-go. So that game basically showed both how great getting 1 DA can be in the late game, and why it's risky to do it early on. | ||
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NickHotS
United States105 Posts
It's similar to the shift in ZvT to Spawn Broodlings, trading energy to instantly remove enemy units. You don't see it that often because PvZ is much more volatile than ZvT, and usually ends before the map is close to mining out. | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
On October 15 2017 18:08 NickHotS wrote: So anyways, Mind Control has become the standard go to in high level Korean PvZ mega late game situations where the map is dangerously close to or completely mined out. what is this based upon? I don't watch streams that often, do people really play like that? Would be glad to see any recent and/or cool vods with DAs. | ||
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NickHotS
United States105 Posts
On October 15 2017 18:12 shall_burn wrote: what is this based upon? I don't watch streams that often, do people really play like that? Would be glad to see any recent and/or cool vods with DAs. There is this game between Mini and Larva: + Show Spoiler + I've also seen it in a game between BeSt and Larva, and maybe a few other times. I'll take a look again when I have some time and see if I can find any of the other games. Basically, it's just based on watching a lot of Korean PvZ on Afreeca between the top players. But again, it's a rare thing, so that's why it's not really known as a standard. Either Protoss or Zerg usually dies before the map is close to mining out. In ZvT it's more common to see the map mining out and Queens since Zerg and Terran are both kind of hard for each other to kill. Also, there is more early-mid game stability, and late game transitions are very figured out now. The usage is pretty simple though, Protoss turtles with lots of Photon Cannons, Dark Archons and High Templars for Mind Control and Psionic Storm. Zerg tries using power units/spells casters of all kinds, and they are either Mind Controlled or killed off by Storms/Cannons. Zerg runs out of money and army supply, and Protoss eventually wins. I feel Zerg really wants to avoid a mined out map situation, but maybe it's possible that Zerg will eventually develop counterplay when they get into these situations. They are so rare that it's a hard thing to practice for. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On October 20 2018 08:11 avilo wrote: Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys. I'm curious, is there a vod with a progame where the toss uses dark archons? | ||
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Yanokabo
268 Posts
Here’s a good one, not a major stakes game but you get the idea of how strong it is especially with Zerg players tendency to stack their mutas and clump their hydras and other units. Maelstrom + psi storm or light (normal) archons = instant death for Muta and most other Zerg units. | ||
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iopq
United States1130 Posts
On October 20 2018 11:07 Fencar wrote: I'm curious, is there a vod with a progame where the toss uses dark archons? in KSL mini used Dark Archons vs. Soulkey https://www.twitch.tv/videos/324638620?t=00h20m47s | ||
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chuDr3t4
Russian Federation484 Posts
On October 20 2018 08:11 avilo wrote: Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys. Well it took 9 years to finally get your words from TL to korean pros, they wouldn't get it themselves... | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 20 2018 08:11 avilo wrote: Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys. Well, now I know you don't watch pro games because it's been done before. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
In PvP players like Best and Mini are using Dark Archons to feedback HTs when they are dropped for Storm Drops on mineral lines. A lot of good metagame advancements recently. | ||
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