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The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
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On November 11 2009 07:50 RaptorX wrote:
The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
DA's being too expensive or not, unit count being lower or not, or 3 sairs being safer or not is IRRELEVANT to the point you're saying that it proves a DA is better than sairs. It's one game and there is PLENTY of proof to the contrary where how many people thus far have used DA and failed? I never said it wasn't viable nor did I say you should say it isn't viable. I said don't say it proves that DA are superior, because it is very arguable that it isn't. A 2 hatch hydra bust is "viable" vs a FE toss, but it doesn't mean it's superior to 5 hatch hydra. One game winning doesn't mean anything, and the several games prior to this where people have used DA against mutas they've typically lost. Which according to your logic, it proves that DA AREN'T viable.
I don't care about 3 hatch mutas. I don't care about timings. It's just your inability to comprehend that one strategy working once doesn't prove it's superior than another.
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Even if DA works, I still think upgraded corsairs are BETTER. more cost efficient and works for you the entire game and faster/more mobile and is not as risky and the list goes on. Even if DA works i will still say there are too many conditions for it and everything has to be perfect. Like I was saying about the maelstorm that actually hit, what if zerg gets off the shots and kills the ht before maelstorm lands. Mutas will fly away unharmed.
You guys must have not seen all those maelstorm fail games and have only seen the ones that works.
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I agree that we need to see it done successfully in more games. One professional game doesn't suddenly mean it has sustained viability.
That game was pretty sexy though =).
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On November 11 2009 08:02 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 07:50 RaptorX wrote:
The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
DA's being too expensive or not, unit count being lower or not, or 3 sairs being safer or not is IRRELEVANT to the point you're saying that it proves a DA is better than sairs. It's one game and there is PLENTY of proof to the contrary where how many people thus far have used DA and failed? I never said it wasn't viable nor did I say you should say it isn't viable. I said don't say it proves that DA are superior, because it is very arguable that it isn't. A 2 hatch hydra bust is "viable" vs a FE toss, but it doesn't mean it's superior to 5 hatch hydra. One game winning doesn't mean anything, and the several games prior to this where people have used DA against mutas they've typically lost. Which according to your logic, it proves that DA AREN'T viable. I don't care about 3 hatch mutas. I don't care about timings. It's just your inability to comprehend that one strategy working once doesn't prove it's superior than another.
Ok let me put it this way... sairs = 2hatch hydra bust while DA's are 5hatch hydra compared to the actual zerg build (3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra). DA's are THAT powerful vs zerg since you can maelstrom everything they throw at you... instantly... and you can save your HT's which will kill massive amounts of hydra/lurk/lings....
Let me clarify something, I am not one of those who jumps in to a winning VOD and say "you see, you see!" but THIS one in particular proves something and thats what i mentioned... it proves that DA > Sair... 'but, but... you can win with sair', yes but they wont freeze a bunch of mutas and get them killed almost instantly, and they wont do ANYTHING against hydras, and they will have to run against muta+scourges... you cant say none of those about the DA... and still the DA is cheaper...
Look, the fact is that this game was won by much because of those 2 maelstroms, without them the game would be WAY longer and more towards zergs favor as it has been the whole season...
They showed some VODs and Replays with DA's winning on them and I did not brag about them at all.... but THIS one is different, because it shows that a DA can flip the weight and thats what this topic is about... listen to the title: "Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ?", and I would say this particular video shows WHY... and that why is that clearly DA > Corsairs in an offensive position, because sairs dont flip the board in your favor, even if you mass them out...
I dont know how cant you see that. Is just that i cant stop thinking about how DA is specifically designed for countering some zerg abilities...
But of course 1 game doesnt mean 'sustained viability' since each player has their weak and strong points, some will not be able to use the DA as skillfully as others.
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On November 11 2009 09:55 Gnarly wrote:
So the only talk of DA is the timing before Muta sniping of HT, being opened up by FE? And you want to call it a "metagame shift"? Why not design a plethora of builds utilizing the DA? That would be a metagame shift.
To be honest, though, I believe that if this timing works out, where the DA protects the HT, the zerg will just make a new timing, and completely ruin all of this discussion. A queen could not counter this at all due to feedback, more mutas would be stupid, and more hydras would delay the timing, making the DA and HTs more powerful, due to energy collection. This will call for something very different, say a 5 pool rush > 2hat spire > queenlings > whatever you want.
Why a 5pool? It can ruin FE, and all the timings after it. Now you're ahead, make six (this is correct due to 2hat spire, instead of 3hat) mutas and go harass, way before the DA would ever come out. Now switch into queenlings, ensnare and crack attack. Massing zealots wouldn't work too much due to mutas, speedlings and a hurt economy. Goons would be completely retarded due to: no lurkers, lings, ensnare would just really screw things up even more. Teching would be very hard imo, due to early, early rush, and then a quick muta follow up, so worrying about tech units shouldn't really happen. Now where's your DA?
The point I really want to make is, instead of focusing on a timing in one build and calling it a shift, try to make more uses for the DA, not just one, then call it a shift.
I mean the guy can't pioneer the use of the DA in all situations from the get go. And if it became powerful enough, when used correctly, that the zergs would have to have a deliberate strategy/build to counter the DA timing than it would be cemented as a metagame shift. Thats how it works.
Savior style play > older protoss styles
Bisu build>>>>> savior play
the 3 hatch muta->5 hatch hydra>bisu build
These have been shown in the proleague over the past couple seasons.
now maybe adding in correct DA timing>3 hatch muta to 5 hydras? Thats what this thread is about. Of course it will take some time to cement the style and get a flexible solid build down.
And there have been many uses for the DA. As sown in some of the pimpest plays in the past. Its known thats it can be a game changer and can sway the game in favor of the protoss. Its just working it efficiently into protoss play before the lategame is what needs to be done. That game shows that when used correctly it can all but seal the deal in favor of the toss. I just think that the pro players need to play a bunch more games and grind down the DA play and it will truly start shining.
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You guys are being silly. The reason starcraft is considered by some as a sport is that DA's can be used to counter mutalisks. Does that mean it's the perfect build? no. Will I be able to beat A+ zergs now that I can make DA's? no. Some people can do it, like Violet. Other people have failed on television before. They probably could get it in practice, but fucking Violet made it look easy. That's why Violet is a professional protoss player.
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On November 11 2009 10:12 hku wrote:
Will I be able to beat A+ zergs now that I can make DA's? no. Some people can do it, like Violet. Other people have failed on television before. They probably could get it in practice, but fucking Violet made it look easy.
no but very likely you will win/have advantage over zergs in your own level who uses this trendy 3h s > 5h hydra build... if you practice...
but you are right, it looks so easy when somebody else does it. :D
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I believe in DA's after watching Violet > Hyuk game.
Kind of wish it got to the stage where we have defiler sniping with feedback...
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We just need more time to get used to DA. It really is just some time before ALL bw units become viable for certain situation.
If you recall 2-4 years ago people NEVER made science vessels vs protoss but that's before arbitors are used prevalently. And now arbitors are being used, and nobody dare to make the argument (I need gas to upgrade for tanks and to make more tanks) anymore because of arbitors.
Also if you recall 2-4 years ago people didn't use defilers nearly as much as now, but since then they have become the norm.
So give it couple of years, I'm sure DA would be commonly used for mid-game instead of late-game.
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On November 11 2009 09:25 RaptorX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2009 08:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 11 2009 07:50 RaptorX wrote:
The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
DA's being too expensive or not, unit count being lower or not, or 3 sairs being safer or not is IRRELEVANT to the point you're saying that it proves a DA is better than sairs. It's one game and there is PLENTY of proof to the contrary where how many people thus far have used DA and failed? I never said it wasn't viable nor did I say you should say it isn't viable. I said don't say it proves that DA are superior, because it is very arguable that it isn't. A 2 hatch hydra bust is "viable" vs a FE toss, but it doesn't mean it's superior to 5 hatch hydra. One game winning doesn't mean anything, and the several games prior to this where people have used DA against mutas they've typically lost. Which according to your logic, it proves that DA AREN'T viable. I don't care about 3 hatch mutas. I don't care about timings. It's just your inability to comprehend that one strategy working once doesn't prove it's superior than another. Ok let me put it this way... sairs = 2hatch hydra bust while DA's are 5hatch hydra compared to the actual zerg build (3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra). DA's are THAT powerful vs zerg since you can maelstrom everything they throw at you... instantly... and you can save your HT's which will kill massive amounts of hydra/lurk/lings.... Let me clarify something, I am not one of those who jumps in to a winning VOD and say "you see, you see!" but THIS one in particular proves something and thats what i mentioned... it proves that DA > Sair... 'but, but... you can win with sair', yes but they wont freeze a bunch of mutas and get them killed almost instantly, and they wont do ANYTHING against hydras, and they will have to run against muta+scourges... you cant say none of those about the DA... and still the DA is cheaper... Look, the fact is that this game was won by much because of those 2 maelstroms, without them the game would be WAY longer and more towards zergs favor as it has been the whole season... They showed some VODs and Replays with DA's winning on them and I did not brag about them at all.... but THIS one is different, because it shows that a DA can flip the weight and thats what this topic is about... listen to the title: "Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ?", and I would say this particular video shows WHY... and that why is that clearly DA > Corsairs in an offensive position, because sairs dont flip the board in your favor, even if you mass them out...I dont know how cant you see that. Is just that i cant stop thinking about how DA is specifically designed for countering some zerg abilities... But of course 1 game doesnt mean 'sustained viability' since each player has their weak and strong points, some will not be able to use the DA as skillfully as others.
You're saying that sair would be the equivalent of 2 hatch hydra bust and DA is 5 hatch hydra? To say that is just simply stupid. You have ONE VOD to support your claims and countless to disprove it. It doesn't prove DA > sair in ANYWAY at all.
First of all, what if it comes out that a toss building DA and a Zerg noticing this and forgoing mutalisks for extra lurkers is actually STRONGER than the current iteration where toss goes Sairs and Zerg goes for mutas? Besides the game vs Kal, which was played absolutely dreadfully, we have nothing to base this off of. So you can't "prove" that DA > sairs.
Second of all, there's no evidence that says the "DA flips the board in your favor," while the exact opposite of massing sairs has evidence that it is a viable standard strategy that is effective. Am I saying it's the best? No. Am I saying it's a standard build? Yes.
The DA isn't "designed" to do shit vs Muta clumps like you're claiming either - no one KNEW about muta clumps until years after broodwar was released.
So stop saying it's been proven, it's bullshit. Maybe DA are better. I don't know. But to say it's been proven is just lying to everyone reading this thread like the entire community now has a general consensus that DA are better solutions than sairs.
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Maybe they will revert back to old school non stacked mutalisk to somehow snipe HTs hehe.
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"DA's are THAT powerful vs zerg since you can maelstrom everything they throw at you... instantly..."
Nukes are very powerful they can kill a lot. Did you see boxer dominate Killer?
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you know what, I will stop trying to be right... lets time decide if DAs will be part of the standard PvZ or not... :D
btw nukes are very powerful but you could die in the process of making them since you wont have enough minerals/scans to survive even though I dont mind seeing it more often in TvT on a clump of sieged tanks, while merging 2 dts that you are already building isnt going to kill nobody, except zerg. 
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Still not addressing the fact that sairs are critical for scouting in the matchup. I think it can also be argued that you lose some degree of map control. Lack of sairs means my ovies will be positioned more appropriately around the map and if the toss ventures out with a DA, I will try to snipe it be it with lings, hydras, whatever.
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well if you read the thread you will see that you are not simply skipping the corsairs, you do make 2-3 for scouting, and probably later on you will add some more, you are actually replacing corsairs in defending against HT sniping with a unit which will insta-kill mutas by maelstroming them when they arrive to your main group of units which is what we are talking about... and the DA cant be 'sniped' since it is a unit with a lot of shield, it just dont simply dies of a few hits like the HTs...
The only thing is that it is like the arbiter, it goes ahead of your group if you leave him alone, so you have to be aware that it should be behind or in the middle of your main attack to make sure it doesnt die to hydras, and keeping in mind that its range is of 10 it means you can still maelstrom mutas and hydras from its positioning without risking it. Those are more and more reasons why some of us consider that DA > sairs when it comes to push out with your main attack.
Since sairs take forever to kill your mutas (which means they will snipe your HTs anyways, which is their purpose) and they die to hydras without doing anything productive...
of course sair > DA when it comes to scouting and ovie hunting but those things dont win the game... killing 9+ mutas allowing you to use almost unlimited storm will...
@FabledIntegral
if zerg goes only hydra/lurker or ling/luker will happen to them as happened before this build they are using... they will get totally fried by HT's... actually the current PvZ is revolving around killing protoss HTs (even sacrificing 1000/1000 for it...) so you cannot tell me that if they see the DA and stop doing mutas protoss arent in advantage some how... not to mention that the DA will maelstrom at least 2 packs of hydras who will surely die while protoss just continues to walk forward without losing so many units, compared to when he tries the same without HT's.
And i did not say that DA is specifically designed to counter mutas, i said it is specifically designed to counter some zerg abilities... like the mobility they have over the protoss... so I am wrong in that one too?
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The DA is better than corsairs in some cases, and the corsair is better than the DA in some other cases. Any statement like DA > sair without specifying the situation is blatantly wrong. Maybe RaptorX didn't mean DA > sair globally, but then he should have made that clear.
Same with the "corsairs more cost efficient" statement. This is purely situational. Significant numbers of corsairs are more expensive than a DA, and force a completely different gameplay. It's pretty much impossible to compare the cost-effctiveness of the two as they (at least partially) serve different purposes.
On November 11 2009 09:55 Gnarly wrote:
So the only talk of DA is the timing before Muta sniping of HT, being opened up by FE? And you want to call it a "metagame shift"? Why not design a plethora of builds utilizing the DA? That would be a metagame shift.
To be honest, though, I believe that if this timing works out, where the DA protects the HT, the zerg will just make a new timing, and completely ruin all of this discussion. A queen could not counter this at all due to feedback, more mutas would be stupid, and more hydras would delay the timing, making the DA and HTs more powerful, due to energy collection. This will call for something very different, say a 5 pool rush > 2hat spire > queenlings > whatever you want.
Why a 5pool? It can ruin FE, and all the timings after it. Now you're ahead, make six (this is correct due to 2hat spire, instead of 3hat) mutas and go harass, way before the DA would ever come out. Now switch into queenlings, ensnare and crack attack. Massing zealots wouldn't work too much due to mutas, speedlings and a hurt economy. Goons would be completely retarded due to: no lurkers, lings, ensnare would just really screw things up even more. Teching would be very hard imo, due to early, early rush, and then a quick muta follow up, so worrying about tech units shouldn't really happen. Now where's your DA?
The point I really want to make is, instead of focusing on a timing in one build and calling it a shift, try to make more uses for the DA, not just one, then call it a shift.
We are talking about DA against 5 hatch hydra. If the build you suggest is strong then so be it, but it can clearly be scouted that this build is NOT a 5 hatch hydra. We are NOT trying to make up a 100% guaranteed victory build.
Also, the zerg can't really force a different timing of muta sniping on the protoss unless he tries to snipe the HTs right next to cannons/goons/archons. With a DA build, the toss moves out once his DA has maelstrom and energy, and this is the timing the zerg can effectively snipe. It's up to the protoss to decide when that timing is.
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*I read the OP and first page, but this thread is pretty huge, so I haven't read the whole thing obviously*
I think DAs can be used more effectively nowadays.
My choice for getting them would rely on what the zerg does. If they go 3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra I would start getting DAs right there when I see he follows up with 2 more hatches and hydras. If he does 2/3 hatch mutas I would just get sairs and goons with my HT, as I will need AA to move out earlier. If he does 2/3 hatch hydra and/or lurker I will not get as many goons and sairs, and go for more of a zealot/HT/archon based army.
My choice relies on what his unit composition will be like at the point of the game when I will actually have the upgrade for DA + a DA out.
Thus:
- 3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra = start getting DA so I will have the energy, DA, and upgrade with my army when he finally manages to get a group of mutas.
- 2/3 hatch mutas = more sairs and goons. I will have to move out faster than I would against a 5hatch hydra, so I cant afford the time to wait for DA. sairs and goons will have to do their best to fend off the mutas.
- 2/3 hatch hydra and/or lurker = he will not even have mutas, so I will just get zealots + HT + archon, without the need to fend off a group of mutas.
My only concern is whether or not I will know enough in advance whether he is getting mutas with his 3hatch spire or transitioning into 5hatch hydra. Probably going to test that out now.
EDIT:
Further thoughts:
I don't think there should be a "DA build", or a BO or anything. It's completely situational and you can be giving your opponent and advantage by sticking to the build, regardless of whether or not he made/is even going to make mutas.
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On November 11 2009 14:13 Rucky wrote:
"DA's are THAT powerful vs zerg since you can maelstrom everything they throw at you... instantly..."
Nukes are very powerful they can kill a lot. Did you see boxer dominate Killer?
The nuke was barely of part of what made Boxer win that game. If you actually look, the nuke doesn't even really kill anything that makes a difference.
+ Show Spoiler +Nukes only do 500 damage, or 2/3s of the buildings health, depending on which is greater, but they don't really even shutdown expansions. In that game all the nukes did were force killer to pull drones from mining for ~10-15 seconds. It didn't kill the hatchery. It didn't kill part of killer's army. It didn't kill a line of sunkens. If the ~10-15 seconds of not mining makes up for the cost of the ghost tech and nukes, then sure, you may as well, but it relies on luck and how well the opponent reacts if you actually want to do the damage you think it would be intended to do(I.E. kill his army, kill sunk line, kill lots of drones).
Honestly, I don't think ghosts have much, if any at all, use in TvZ. In TvP, you can still use ghosts to lockdown arbs/cars and EMP before nuking, basically destroying everything in the nukes range.
Sorry for kind of going off topic
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EPT
