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On August 03 2017 10:26 ortseam wrote:
No one brought up SC2 in the last posts except for you, we just tried to explain fundamentals aspects of BW, then you start talking about SC2 and bias.. lol
And yeah, almost every progamer can macro like that, including MVP (when he was playing) and Rain, they are not noobs who float minerals wtf . Shine can't and he reached ASL finals, that's a fact. If it was that simple, people would just macro better and play like Flash. The Boxer thing also isn't an argument, everyone has similar or better micro these days
Also, lol at calling out Bonyth. Just wasted his time to explain some things, only to get bashed immediately after
No one brought up SC2?? Did you even read the last 5 pages? Sigh, why am I even responding?
I'll call out Bonyth when he makes an incorrect statement, I don't care who he is. Bash me all you want, if you truly think "anyone can macro like Flash, even amateurs" then that says it all about your knowledge of this game.
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On August 03 2017 10:01 SnowfaLL wrote:
If you spent 160 APM solely on micro and only 40 on Macro on average, you sorely underestimate how much macro you are doing. The whole point of BW is that it is impossible to do everything perfectly, so pros (I'm talking the best of the best, Jaedong and Flash) will almost always choose the macro route in an intense game vs perfect microing, because they know having more units to reinforce is stronger than the 2003 days of microing your one dropship and tanks to kill a whole base. The only time micro actually takes precedent over macro in BW is critical situations where your macro is A) not established yet (earlygame/expoing) or when the whole map is mined out and you have a handful of units left.
I didn't come up with the numbers, specialized programs for replay analysis did.
I could give you tons of replays, even mirror matches so u get the picture more easily, where I had far inferior army and eco but managed to win. In your picture of BW I would never be able to win.
Also, u still didn't answer me how should I send my carriers on a-move and win or how zergs should do the same with their units.
I don't deny that macro has a huge impact on the game. Decision making is even bigger factor. Saying everything can be sent on a-move in BroodWar makes u look incompetent at best. Granted, u will meet situations where progamers will go for a production circle, but don't make that the standard for the whole game, will ya?
I think i need to spend less time on the forums. My blood pressure rises after reading certain posts.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 03 2017 10:26 ortseam wrote:
No one brought up SC2 in the last posts except for you, we just tried to explain fundamentals aspects of BW, then you start talking about SC2 and bias.. lol
And yeah, almost every progamer can macro like that, including MVP (when he was playing) and Rain, they are not noobs who float minerals wtf . Shine can't and he reached ASL finals, that's a fact. If it was that simple, people would just macro better and play like Flash. The Boxer thing also isn't an argument, everyone has similar or better micro these days
Also, lol at calling out Bonyth. Just wasted his time to explain some things, only to get bashed immediately after
ya, it's quite silly to state that micro is on such a low end of the game. Like, these pros macro so fast and switch back to the battle to micro. If micro is nowhere as important as macro, then why even bother? After all, macro is that much more important. The facts are that both macro and micro are important in the end. You obviously need to macro in order to have units to micro and you can have the best macro in the world but if you are running your mnm constantly into lurkers because your micro sucks, you won't be winning any games.
Your example is also quite good. People seem to forget that Mvp actually took a game off Flash on MP back in the day (Flash went to win the series in the next 2 games) and as we all know, Shine sucks at macroing. His unit control and micro can be really great though and strategically, I think he was one of the better zerg player in the last ASL.
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On August 03 2017 10:41 SnowfaLL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 10:26 ortseam wrote:
No one brought up SC2 in the last posts except for you, we just tried to explain fundamentals aspects of BW, then you start talking about SC2 and bias.. lol
And yeah, almost every progamer can macro like that, including MVP (when he was playing) and Rain, they are not noobs who float minerals wtf . Shine can't and he reached ASL finals, that's a fact. If it was that simple, people would just macro better and play like Flash. The Boxer thing also isn't an argument, everyone has similar or better micro these days
Also, lol at calling out Bonyth. Just wasted his time to explain some things, only to get bashed immediately after
No one brought up SC2?? Did you even read the last 5 pages? Sigh, why am I even responding? I'll call out Bonyth when he makes an incorrect statement, I don't care who he is. Bash me all you want, if you truly think "anyone can macro like Flash, even amateurs" then that says it all about your knowledge of this game.
I think you are confusing mechanical prowess with macro-management. Jaedong's forte is not macro-management, Jaedong had a 72.69% win rate in zerg-versus-zerg at the end of his career, a career win percentage that is not matched by any zerg player in history, while his win rates in the other two match-ups have been matched by other great zergs in history. Jaedong shined the most when the strategical elements of the game were lessened, and flourished when it became a pure battle of mechanical ability.
Jaedong was in posession of the greatest micro-management abilities seen in recent years, and was in posession of superlative multi-tasking and macro-management. However, he has openly said on television that his greatest strength was his micro-management ability.
Jaedong was a mechanical monster who at his peak, found the greatest success in maps that had hundreds of games played on it, and was relatively figured out strategically, such as Sin Peaks of Baekdu, Tau Cross, Python, Fighting Spirit, Match Point, and Circuit Breaker. Of course, Jaedong added some guile to his game as the years went by, but that was not the main reason he became the most successful zerg of all time.
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On August 03 2017 10:47 Bonyth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 10:01 SnowfaLL wrote:
If you spent 160 APM solely on micro and only 40 on Macro on average, you sorely underestimate how much macro you are doing. The whole point of BW is that it is impossible to do everything perfectly, so pros (I'm talking the best of the best, Jaedong and Flash) will almost always choose the macro route in an intense game vs perfect microing, because they know having more units to reinforce is stronger than the 2003 days of microing your one dropship and tanks to kill a whole base. The only time micro actually takes precedent over macro in BW is critical situations where your macro is A) not established yet (earlygame/expoing) or when the whole map is mined out and you have a handful of units left.
I didn't come up with the numbers, specialized programs for replay analysis did. I could give you tons of replays, even mirror matches so u get the picture more easily, where I had far inferior army and eco but managed to win. In your picture of BW I would never be able to win. Also, u still didn't answer me how should I send my carriers on a-move and win or how zergs should do the same with their units. I don't deny that macro has a huge impact on the game. Decision making is even bigger factor. Saying everything can be sent on a-move in BroodWar makes u look incompetent at best. Granted, u will meet situations where progamers will go for a production circle, but don't make that the standard for the whole game, will ya? I think i need to spend less time on the forums. My blood pressure rises after reading certain posts.
Where did I ever say that micro is non-existent and you can LITERALLY a-move every single unit in this game?? I just said macro is MORE IMPORTANT and you occasionally see pros a-moving at times for a production cycle (if the game was 80% micro based, that wouldnt happen EVER).. Reading comprehension.. please! The whole point of my original post is that BW, JUST like SC2, is a game where you are unable to play perfect - so everyone, even Flash, occassionally make mistakes. But due to the importance of Macro, it is different than SC2 where you can miss a few cycles and still be fine, but one micro mistake in SC2 is game ending while in BW you can walk your tanks into zealots by mistake and still win the game with superior macro. (And to not piss off the BW elitists.. obviously BW macro is 10x harder than SC2 macro). Wasn't even saying one is better or worse than the other, just talking about the differences because someone mentioned it before me..
I don't even care that you are "the legendary Bonyth, best foreigner protoss" (quoted by yourself) - If you are going to make statements like that, Its hard to take you seriously..
Ok im seriously done in this conversation if this is the kind of rebuttals I'm dealing with lol.. Someone saying amateurs can macro like Flash no problem, and Bonyth thinking I said you can literally A-move every unit in every game.. Holy cow.
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The problem with saying that macro is prime is that macro means the creation of more units.
But if you don't micro in big battles, you lose tons of units. So if the end goal is as many units as possible, you have to do both, period. And the player who does both better will wind. If you just a-move on the minimap and forget your units afterwards, but train them with 100% precision and all your timings for adding production buildings is perfect, you'll lose.
It's ridiculous to say people win through macro alone.
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They're giving out beta keys every day, got mine today.
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On August 03 2017 15:05 TT1 wrote:They're giving out beta keys every day, got mine today.
Like you logged in and randomly had remastered?
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On August 03 2017 15:05 TT1 wrote:They're giving out beta keys every day, got mine today.
Lucky guy! Hope I get mine tomorrow (although I doubt it!)
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On August 03 2017 15:09 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 15:05 TT1 wrote:They're giving out beta keys every day, got mine today. Like you logged in and randomly had remastered?
Launched BW, logged into my acc and the screen changed to HD.
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United Kingdom12061 Posts
On August 03 2017 15:33 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 15:09 GoShox wrote:On August 03 2017 15:05 TT1 wrote:They're giving out beta keys every day, got mine today. Like you logged in and randomly had remastered? Launched BW, logged into my acc and the screen changed to HD.
*rocks back and forth*
Not long now until I get in right? ;_;
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On August 03 2017 15:05 TT1 wrote:They're giving out beta keys every day, got mine today.
how can u get one?
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On August 03 2017 11:10 SnowfaLL wrote:
"the legendary Bonyth, best foreigner protoss" (quoted by yourself) - If you are going to make statements like that, Its hard to take you seriously..
Bonyth
and some people think of me as #1 protoss foreigner (god i hate u for making me say such self-promoting statement).
When you blatantly change quotes misrepresenting what was said to prove your narrative, it is indeed very hard to take you seriously.
Maybe if you wanted a real discussion on the differences you shouldn't have started with everything that counts in BW is pure macro-ability. Which is just a false statement, as pointed out by the other posters.
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On August 03 2017 15:33 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 15:09 GoShox wrote:On August 03 2017 15:05 TT1 wrote:They're giving out beta keys every day, got mine today. Like you logged in and randomly had remastered? Launched BW, logged into my acc and the screen changed to HD.
Did anything change on your bn account? Is there any text when you go into SC:Remastered license on the list?
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On August 03 2017 18:36 Keniji wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2017 11:10 SnowfaLL wrote:
"the legendary Bonyth, best foreigner protoss" (quoted by yourself) - If you are going to make statements like that, Its hard to take you seriously..
Show nested quote + Bonyth
and some people think of me as #1 protoss foreigner (god i hate u for making me say such self-promoting statement).
When you blatantly change quotes misrepresenting what was said to prove your narrative, it is indeed very hard to take you seriously. Maybe if you wanted a real discussion on the differences you shouldn't have started with everything that counts in BW is pure macro-ability. Which is just a false statement, as pointed out by the other posters.
lol why bother sucking up to him, hoping for free lessons? He took my whole post out of context to fit his narrative, thats way worse than a tongue n cheek slight at his "#1 protoss foreigner" quote.
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EPT
