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Speaking as a member of SEN, this patch will be as any other patch to us. We will continue to do what we have always done: Research EUDs and offsets, update tools and plugins, and continue to produce quality UMS and mod content.
We have been coping with patch changes for a long time, lets not forget how devastating 1.14 was to the UMS community due to all the maps broken from stacked text being taken out. Lets not forget the entire series of 1.13 patches a-f being in response to Heinermann's EUD discoveries. And I think the number of hacks, drops, gamelist crashes, ect that will be gone as a result of this will actually be a net gain, these are things that actively kept people from being able to play. The number of lobby greifers alone is staggering.
So in short: Nothing new for us vets, bring it on Blizzard. A little attention for one of the finest games ever produced is certainly not out of place.
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Its an easy question to answer: The crowd will go where it is best.
That means that if BW stays better for over 50% of the users without the patch, people wont patch it, so we will stay on 1.16.1
If however the patch is a great success (lets say they fix maplimit at the same time), then eventually people will move to the next patch.
Its kinda like the free market, the better option will win.
So in other words, Ill be happy if a patch comes out, but I will check first if its worth going into it.
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Blizzard can also fucked up this patch. They already did it with 1.16
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On March 16 2016 19:07 mca64Launcher_ wrote:
mca64Launcher also wont be updated
I really wish you would update it. It has some problems but it's clearly the best launcher for iCCup. You're literally the ONLY dude to support a foreign StarCraft launcher
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On March 16 2016 20:41 iloveav wrote:
Its an easy question to answer: The crowd will go where it is best.
That means that if BW stays better for over 50% of the users without the patch, people wont patch it, so we will stay on 1.16.1
If however the patch is a great success (lets say they fix maplimit at the same time), then eventually people will move to the next patch.
Its kinda like the free market, the better option will win.
So in other words, Ill be happy if a patch comes out, but I will check first if its worth going into it.
I think this is arguable with the Korean fan base. If a patch releases Fish, wProgramming, and all Koreans will blindly update to it just because it's, well, StarCraft.
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On March 16 2016 20:41 iloveav wrote:
Its an easy question to answer: The crowd will go where it is best.
That means that if BW stays better for over 50% of the users without the patch, people wont patch it, so we will stay on 1.16.1
If however the patch is a great success (lets say they fix maplimit at the same time), then eventually people will move to the next patch.
Its kinda like the free market, the better option will win.
So in other words, Ill be happy if a patch comes out, but I will check first if its worth going into it.
I disagree. Just like in US politics, the popular vote doesn't matter. What matters is what the servers enforce, not the players. You're also wrong in this being a choice between what's better; unless something goes inexplicably wrong, I don't see how this patch can be worse than what we currently have. It's too early to say for sure, but I'm pretty certain this patch would bring improvements to the average modern user. In other words, better is not the quality that is in question. It's whether it's good enough for servers to leave the status quo. Psychologically speaking, many decisions are based off a desire to avoid change as opposed to any actual cost/benefit analysis of the change. That and the potential lack of community support (as was mentioned earlier) are the biggest foreseeable hurdles in my opinion.
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On March 16 2016 15:44 deus_073 wrote:
How big were the patches to D2 and W3?
Nothing huge, just a small patch to help with compatibility / Mac OS X. It did however break 3rd party ladders/hacks, and I'm going to assume custom maps but I'm not sure.
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On March 16 2016 23:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 20:41 iloveav wrote:
Its an easy question to answer: The crowd will go where it is best.
That means that if BW stays better for over 50% of the users without the patch, people wont patch it, so we will stay on 1.16.1
If however the patch is a great success (lets say they fix maplimit at the same time), then eventually people will move to the next patch.
Its kinda like the free market, the better option will win.
So in other words, Ill be happy if a patch comes out, but I will check first if its worth going into it. I disagree. Just like in US politics, the popular vote doesn't matter. What matters is what the servers enforce, not the players. You're also wrong in this being a choice between what's better; unless something goes inexplicably wrong, I don't see how this patch can be worse than what we currently have. It's too early to say for sure, but I'm pretty certain this patch would bring improvements to the average modern user. In other words, better is not the quality that is in question. It's whether it's good enough for servers to leave the status quo. Psychologically speaking, many decisions are based off a desire to avoid change as opposed to any actual cost/benefit analysis of the change. That and the potential lack of community support (as was mentioned earlier) are the biggest foreseeable hurdles in my opinion.
Politics are bought long before the campaign even begins. That would be a good analogy if Blizzard bought/paid off Fish and Iccup to get the patch going.
Here you have for the moment a different situation. Why did people even migrate from b.net to Iccup? And why some went to fish from there?
It is not because the server enforces something, it is because it has what they are looking for.
You are forgeting that in politics, the 51% can say what the 49% has to do. I dont see Iccup forcing fish koreans to start using Iccup because it does or does not do something.
But I do see Koreans joining Iccup if Fish screws them up.
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On March 16 2016 22:52 WinterViewbot420 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 20:41 iloveav wrote:
Its an easy question to answer: The crowd will go where it is best.
That means that if BW stays better for over 50% of the users without the patch, people wont patch it, so we will stay on 1.16.1
If however the patch is a great success (lets say they fix maplimit at the same time), then eventually people will move to the next patch.
Its kinda like the free market, the better option will win.
So in other words, Ill be happy if a patch comes out, but I will check first if its worth going into it. I think this is arguable with the Korean fan base. If a patch releases Fish, wProgramming, and all Koreans will blindly update to it just because it's, well, StarCraft.
I dont know much about koreans and their way of thinking, but It safer to say that they will do what is in their individual interest first, rather than blindly accept anything.
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I dont think they should patch with only the compatibility fixes, maybe they should do all in one type of thing where They fix the compatibility issues but at the same time provide a server with competitive play, ladder and etc. They should atleast have some type of familiarity with the Scene here... Or maybe they'll just totally ignore starcraft i have no idea.
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On March 16 2016 22:41 WinterViewbot420 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 19:07 mca64Launcher_ wrote:
mca64Launcher also wont be updated I really wish you would update it. It has some problems but it's clearly the best launcher for iCCup. You're literally the ONLY dude to support a foreign StarCraft launcher
Dont have a time for this. Much work is needed to fix it.
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On March 16 2016 18:45 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 18:02 GeckoXp wrote:
Yet, it all depends on ICCup. If they start to hesitate it could really be the end of that server and the foreign scene will take a bigger hit than expected. Not sure if a total newb would undergo the Fish registration and the language issues. I feel like if/when Fish switches, ICCup has no choice but to switch or risk losing a big portion of its current active population. Sure, many low rank players might stick around, especially those that don't even know what Fish is. But if forced with a choice due to convenience and progress, I bet most strong players would pick Fish even if it meant that they had to bite the bullet and take a few hits to their ego in the process. I doubt anyone will keep two version of SC installed. Unless you can do something tricky like using an old .exe? Does that work like that? I don't recall. However, I doubt people would even go that far. Whenever there is a convenience issue, you're going to lose a lot of people in any walk of life imo.
Yes, on paper this makes sense. Most of the Brood War admins care a lot and if it was up to them a lot more would change. However, they're not in charge of the technical site of the server or the page, which is why a lot of criticism is taken to them. Most of them shut up and don't communicate the issue publicly, because, well, you won't rant about your colleagues, especially since most of them are nice beings.
ICCup is larger than you might think (or not, you do speak Russian after all), with Brood War being just a very tiny addendum to the page. It has so little players, it's really not worth any kind of investment in the eyes of the developers. Ant keeps the server up because it doesn't cost much money and because he likes the game a lot. It's what he apparently started out with. If it ever starts to really cost much time or money, the servers won't survive.
And that's the frustrating part. It could be done, as could be much more. In the past there were a number of people who had the expertise to take on some work, but weren't allowed - xboi being one of them. Consequently nothing changes, despite the Brood War team doing as much as they can to convince Ant and his developers to at least fix the most important features. You don't imagine how long it took to force them to re-start the clan war section, despite us still having three very active divisions.
TL;DR: The decision is not in the hands of the community, but in the hands of people who transferred to other games without playing them.
As for the impact, I have no doubt it'd be a serious, yet understandable blow if ICCup started to really die over night. People claim they'd play more BW, even if it was just every now and again, and I believe them. What holds them back is the colour shit and the routing issues. Even if they were fixed, a non-English server is required, as ordinary battle.net is gobshite. The only alternative would then be Fish, for which you have to download special launchers (no mca apparently) and get to learn about basic phrases, so you can host and find games on your own. You'd replace one barrier with another one. Also, the place is so huge that a casual won't find the existing foreign enclave easily. Mind you, I'm talking about outsiders or people returning after six or seven years inactivity.
I really can't see how a patch would be positive in that regard.
For a side note, I was kind-of looking forward to Birdie's experiment. At the time he tried to host it, it was a bad idea, because ICCup was still a good place to play, despite the antics I and others had caused. If a patch would hit, Birdie's server would at least give us more than just hope. If someone wants to host a new page, the timing couldn't be any better. It doesn't need to do nearly as much as Birdie had planned, a simple ladder for 1v1 and 2v2 would be enough. Elo, Glicko or old point rankings - doesn't matter.
Same goes for any kind of launcher really. It has to feature LanLat, some from of Antihack and not more. The rest is fancy add-ons you can live without, you just got used to them.
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On March 17 2016 00:34 mca64Launcher_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 22:41 WinterViewbot420 wrote:On March 16 2016 19:07 mca64Launcher_ wrote:
mca64Launcher also wont be updated I really wish you would update it. It has some problems but it's clearly the best launcher for iCCup. You're literally the ONLY dude to support a foreign StarCraft launcher Dont have a time for this. Much work is needed to fix it.
I'd love to adopt the project, if not that at least open source and translate the whole thing before abandoning it
Geckoxp
I'm too lazy to pick individual quotes from your post, but if iCCup dies Fish will roflstomp the foreign community out of existence. Nobody wants to learn Korean for a video game and Koreans don't want a bunch of foreigners on the server. Foreigners are treasured right now, but if a bunch of Peruvians and Russians come in you can kiss foreign IPs goodbye, they won't put up with it.
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On March 16 2016 18:02 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 08:17 Cele wrote:
We, as ICCup will judge if the patch is a significant improvement over the current one before making a decision whether or not to go with it. That's really all i can say at this point, since the exact details of the patch (if it comes) are up to speculation.
If there is a patch, we will make sure to let everybody know, how we progress on it.
This isn't mean to sound harsh (really not), but you're (all BW admins) not the one that's going to be calling the shot whether or not ICCup will roll with a new patch, despite being it a no-brainer. Obviously it has to happen if Blizzard manages to erase the most common problems, such as colour bugs and hopefully offers a minor help for routing issues. The point was made by xboi a while ago, dealing with the owners of ICCup, namely YelloAnt, is frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I hold him in highest regards, simply for letting us use the server for years without getting something back, as well as always lending a helpful hand whenever it came to tournament issues. However, he is very reserved when it comes to simple updates, I'm pretty sure any ex- and current senior admin will tell you how annoying his policy is: nobody he doesn't know touches the source. Consequently you'd have to wait months for his trusted coders to maybe have a look. Just as example, it took Soldier about half a year to get some icon changes, me more than two years to bring up ranking updates to discussion, which ultimatively were realized long after I was gone by... I think it was Face? And these are minor tweaks, I really wouldn't want to be the person to non-stop nag Ant to adapt to a new patch, especially since all the coders I knew are most likely gone from the portal by now. edit: I left out that xboi was in an ICCup admin position and had the pleasure to try to get his inventions added to the portal. I'd say about 95% of the technical forum help topics, tool suggestions, tutorials and whatnot were written by him and him alone, as well as on-person support on the server. He knows what he says first hand, sadly. Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 05:28 xboi209 wrote:
- The new patch won't prevent motivated people to create the next big thing, but the SC community has dwindled and there aren't many people willing to do that kind of stuff anymore. That's not nearly as bad as you might think. A few years back I thought the same, but I was 'only' somewhat familiar with the European scene and found some people like you from North America. Don't underestimate the East European and Asian Scene though, there's plenty of lunatics left willing to contribute. Really, I wouldn't have expected a Polish flamer would release an effective launcher, or yoda getting Defiler up. Whenever you lost hope one of them pops up, you included. Also, back in the days we lacked coders even more, at least from what I remembered. Most of the players and admins were students of MINT-subjects, but close to none really studied IT-related subjects, rather physics, maths, chemistry and whatnot. Nowadays there's more people with a general knowledge, so they don't have to invest nearly as much of their free time than they did a decade back. There's hope and hope dies last. I don't think Fish will have a problem to transfer. Yet, it all depends on ICCup. If they start to hesitate it could really be the end of that server and the foreign scene will take a bigger hit than expected. Not sure if a total newb would undergo the Fish registration and the language issues.
im aware of the position the BW section has within the ICCup orject and aware aswell of Ant's position regarding it. I had the "pleasure" myself to request some minor changes and deal with the non-existent results. If that's what xboi meant, i have to agree. But what good is it? You know i supported Birdie's Starserver too, as i did transaltions for the german localisation just like you did and was supportive of the idea, but as you said it didn't happen. And tbh i don't see something else happening atm. So it seems to me, the best we can do is, to work with what we have and stick to ICCup.
And yes the ICCup personal, me included, can be a bit defensive about stuff, but i guess you know full well why. Additionally, i wanna say i will be more than positive to any kind of solution for the described problem. But until then, let's stick to what we have.
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Some ideas:
• since BW is such a small part of iccup for a long time due to various reasons, I believe the server should be moved to TL
• TL is the best place for a BW server since that's what it's most well know for, plus it features a large community that would pick up BW again if they had the right conditions
• having an established server on TL that's managed by people who love the game, with admins who are empowered by the servers' owner, the community could grow.
The only problem I see is money:
- the current owner of the iccup sc server might not give it away for free, though if he loves the game, I think there might be a chance.
- maintaining a server and creating a good launcher with the right tools takes more than passionate people. It takes PAID passionate people. For that I'm willing to donate a certain fee, either per month, per year or maybe a one time thing. 100s of $, even a few K. I'm sure other BW users will do the same if everything is coordinated transparently by some TL staff.
Having iccup and TL separated doesn't make sense in my mind, nor having 2 servers. The community should be unified under one main website. Will there be problems? Of course, but I believe this is the best option.
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I would definitely love a TL hosted server, I think it would grow the foreign scene by a lot and we could put a name to all the faces if we so wish.
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On March 17 2016 01:58 deus_073 wrote:
Some ideas:[...]
Is the TL BW community really that big? It used to be, but nowadays I would do a poll or gather some data first to determine if it's even worth it. Also TL mostly represents the english speaking community. Outside of korea starcraft is most popular in CIS / eastern europe. Unless TL introduces a russian subforum / translation you won't get those players over here.
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Yeah, TL is only a fraction of the ICCup user base. It's mostly Russian and South American, English speakers do not really matter too much.
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im sorry but TL doesn't have the manpower atm to host a server of their own imo. The amount of dedicated tech savy people is not big enough.
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I agree the current TL community may not be that big, but the potential is surely here. I'm confident TL has a lot more traffic than iccup. The chances of growing the player base are much higher here.
@Cele, I highly doubt that. Even if that were the case, you're saying moving the server here and raising money for dedicated staff wouldn't be a solution?
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EPT
