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Now that the D2 and W3 patches have been released in succession, I would expect that there will be a SC patch soon. As with the D2 and W3 patches, the SC patch should support the newer Mac operating systems and improve support for Windows 7, 8, and 10. As with every patch however, there are consequences for the SC community as every third-party tool such as APM Alert and Chaos Plugin will need to be updated, maps using EUD triggers such as Diplo will need to be updated, and replays will become incompatible. While the bright side is that the majority of hacks, such as Oblivion, will not be updated because the author is no longer working on them, so will our precious tools that many of us take for granted.
With the amount of support that the ICCup developers have shown to SC in the past few years, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to stay on 1.16.1 due to lack of motivation. The SC community that plays at Fish will have a difficult time moving to the new patch as many UMS maps depends on using the 1.16.1 patch but who knows, and let's not even bother discussing the Chinese server.
Essentially, the SC community has a tight bond with the 1.16.1 patch. Will we come to accept the new patch and forgo our 7 years of work?
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I would be very disheartened if servers like ICCup and Fish didn't make the move to the new patch to be honest. If it makes the game compatible with newer OS then it should be the direction we should be going in imo. If the past years have shown anything, it's that the game will become harder to play with new OS if we stick to 1.16.1. I think that making the game more accessible is in everyone's best interest, even if it damages the established resources.
I don't know as much about modern UMS but couldn't many of the triggers be straight up copy+pasted? Where there is a will, there is a way. From what I've read on here, UMS are still coming out today that are popular like One Punch Man Defense (iirc). I don't see how the new patch would prevent motivated people from creating the next big thing.
I guess the issue is that this might divide the community. I feel like if everyone, or more specifically the servers, switched over officially, then the transition will be a lot more painless than if there are stalwarts preventing the transition. Although new players that stick around long enough to truly enjoy competitive play are few and far between, a compatibility patch would benefit BW in the long term by making it more accessible to these and other players.
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The only way to avoid division of the community is if everyone moves to the new patch. I don't know anything about map-making or plugin-updating, but I am confident that keeping the community as large and tight-knit as possible should be the highest priority.
As you said, "As with every patch however, there are consequences," and this is no different. But why should this one be different with regards to people making the necessary changes? The community is already small enough. I can't imagine how fragmented it'd be if, in the past, people were stubborn and refused to move to new patches. I know, we've spent much longer on 1.16.1 than any other patch, but still, progress shouldn't be rejected because of laziness.
I am extremely grateful to the people who created the plugins on which we depend, but I'd certainly be disappointed if these people decide not to update the plugins, thus fragmenting the community.
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- Well with the DDraw patch that Aqrit released, playing SC on Windows 7, 8, and 10 is very easy.
- Maps using EUD triggers will be affected, they can't be merely copy and pasted because they rely on memory addresses that are specific to the 1.16.1 patch. If you look at Fish's game list for UMS games, you'll see that EUD maps are played on a lot. I'm expecting Fish to switch to the new patch but I'm just pointing out the possibility of some difficulty with that.
- The new patch won't prevent motivated people to create the next big thing, but the SC community has dwindled and there aren't many people willing to do that kind of stuff anymore.
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On March 16 2016 05:28 xboi209 wrote:
- Well with the DDraw patch that Aqrit released, playing SC on Windows 7, 8, and 10 is very easy.
- Maps using EUD triggers will be affected, they can't be merely copy and pasted because they rely on memory addresses that are specific to the 1.16.1 patch. If you look at Fish's game list for UMS games, you'll see that EUD maps are played on a lot. I'm expecting Fish to switch to the new patch but I'm just pointing out the possibility of some difficulty with that.
- The new patch won't prevent motivated people to create the next big thing, but the SC community has dwindled and there aren't many people willing to do that kind of stuff anymore.
1. Sure, it's been patched, but that's something only people in the know have access to. I'd assume that most players who switch to BW right now have access to this information, but it's a case of not knowing what you don't know. If this patch makes it easier for people to buy the CD or download it from ICCup and install it on a modern machine with no additional effort, that greatly decreases the barrier for entry IMO. Speaking personally, if I were vaguely interested in a game and wanted to play it, but once I installed it didn't work properly, I'd be pretty pissed. If I look on forums and find out I have to download this and enable that and etc., the chances of me continuing to invest effort with no immediate enjoyment are diminishing.
2. Ok, not sure what "EUD" is so perhaps my point is invalid. How hard is it just to change the memory address and nothing else, if that's the only thing preventing the UMS from being updated between patches?
3. That's a constant problem in this community, especially in the foreign scene. However, this change could imaginably benefit long-term by being easier to access for more people, of which a small percentage will become devoted, and consequently could provide the "next big thing."
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Speaking personally, if I were vaguely interested in a game and wanted to play it, but once I installed it didn't work properly, I'd be pretty pissed. If I look on forums and find out I have to download this and enable that and etc., the chances of me continuing to invest effort with no immediate enjoyment are diminishing.
1. Valid point but this discussion is mostly geared towards players at ICCup and Fish who already have to look through forums to figure out how to connect to the servers and use the proper antihack, so the DDraw patch is just another topping on the cake. It could even just come by default from the ICCup download.
How hard is it just to change the memory address and nothing else, if that's the only thing preventing the UMS from being updated between patches?
2. The difficult part is finding the new memory addresses which is time consuming, especially if you have a lot of memory addresses in use. This also applies to the tools we use such as APM Alert.
That's a constant problem in this community, especially in the foreign scene. However, this change could imaginably benefit long-term by being easier to access for more people, of which a small percentage will become devoted, and consequently could provide the "next big thing."
3. We may have to wait a very long time for that small percentage of people, if any, to start contributing to the community.
To be clear, I'm not against switching to the new patch but staying on the current patch may be something worth considering.
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I, for one, would be happy to play some BW for the fun now and then if all I have to do is to install the game. I don't have a big enough interest as of now to search for how I am supposed to make the game work on my win10. I believe I am not the only one is this situation.
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On March 16 2016 05:46 xboi209 wrote:Show nested quote +
Speaking personally, if I were vaguely interested in a game and wanted to play it, but once I installed it didn't work properly, I'd be pretty pissed. If I look on forums and find out I have to download this and enable that and etc., the chances of me continuing to invest effort with no immediate enjoyment are diminishing.
1. Valid point but this discussion is mostly geared towards players at ICCup and Fish who already have to look through forums to figure out how to connect to the servers and use the proper antihack, so the DDraw patch is just another topping on the cake. It could even just come by default from the ICCup download. Show nested quote +
How hard is it just to change the memory address and nothing else, if that's the only thing preventing the UMS from being updated between patches?
2. The difficult part is finding the new memory addresses which is time consuming, especially if you have a lot of memory addresses in use. This also applies to the tools we use such as APM Alert. Show nested quote +
That's a constant problem in this community, especially in the foreign scene. However, this change could imaginably benefit long-term by being easier to access for more people, of which a small percentage will become devoted, and consequently could provide the "next big thing."
3. We may have to wait a very long time for that small percentage of people, if any, to start contributing to the community. To be clear, I'm not against switching to the new patch but staying on the current patch may be something worth considering.
Agreed with you on all points given what you've said. Thank you for the informative reply.
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The very first thing that needs to be done, if anything, is simply implement Lan Latency so battlenet can be playable without Chaos Launcher or other third party add-ons.
Even playing UMS on iccup, more players tend to not have AH on and it's still frustrating to have an input delayed by a full second or more.
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We, as ICCup will judge if the patch is a significant improvement over the current one before making a decision whether or not to go with it. That's really all i can say at this point, since the exact details of the patch (if it comes) are up to speculation.
If there is a patch, we will make sure to let everybody know, how we progress on it.
On March 16 2016 04:25 xboi209 wrote:
With the amount of support that the ICCup developers have shown to SC in the past few years, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to stay on 1.16.1 due to lack of motivation.
That's a false assumption actually. If you paid notice, we recently have been very active; improving the ladder experience by adjusting the ladder system to current challenges, updating the map pool and hosting new tours ( like the ICCup Nation League)
I don't claim everybody in the community loves these changes, but you can't argue we have been disinterested.
- The new patch won't prevent motivated people to create the next big thing, but the SC community has dwindled and there aren't many people willing to do that kind of stuff anymore.
This is more on point: there are still motivated people in this community; but we are getting fewer and fewer and that affects the amount of people able and willing to contribute in various ways. Only solution: we all need to be more active in this hobby of ours and contribute to "the cause" where we can.
Or explicitly: if you are worried about ICCUp having the qualified personal to adjust to a new patch with all the technical details xboi, you staff membership is always open for you and we'd appreciate your input on the matter. :>
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If the patch improves compatibility with newer operating systems but breaks everything else then I'd prefer not to change since we pretty much have everything we need with third party programs. Why do you assume a patch would necessarily break everything though?
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Don't worry, mca will make a new launcher and all is gonna be fine. iccup might as well take mca, since his launcher actually hacks the icclauncher ;-)
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How big were the patches to D2 and W3?
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On March 16 2016 13:19 ejac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2016 11:27 kingfish- wrote:
Don't worry, mca will make a new launcher and all is gonna be fine. iccup might as well take mca, since his launcher actually hacks the icclauncher ;-) You don't realize the person who made this thread is the creator of mcaLauncher do you?
mca is the creator of mcaLauncher...
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On March 16 2016 08:17 Cele wrote:
We, as ICCup will judge if the patch is a significant improvement over the current one before making a decision whether or not to go with it. That's really all i can say at this point, since the exact details of the patch (if it comes) are up to speculation.
If there is a patch, we will make sure to let everybody know, how we progress on it.
This isn't mean to sound harsh (really not), but you're (all BW admins) not the one that's going to be calling the shot whether or not ICCup will roll with a new patch, despite being it a no-brainer. Obviously it has to happen if Blizzard manages to erase the most common problems, such as colour bugs and hopefully offers a minor help for routing issues.
The point was made by xboi a while ago, dealing with the owners of ICCup, namely YelloAnt, is frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I hold him in highest regards, simply for letting us use the server for years without getting something back, as well as always lending a helpful hand whenever it came to tournament issues. However, he is very reserved when it comes to simple updates, I'm pretty sure any ex- and current senior admin will tell you how annoying his policy is: nobody he doesn't know touches the source. Consequently you'd have to wait months for his trusted coders to maybe have a look. Just as example, it took Soldier about half a year to get some icon changes, me more than two years to bring up ranking updates to discussion, which ultimatively were realized long after I was gone by... I think it was Face? And these are minor tweaks, I really wouldn't want to be the person to non-stop nag Ant to adapt to a new patch, especially since all the coders I knew are most likely gone from the portal by now.
edit: I left out that xboi was in an ICCup admin position and had the pleasure to try to get his inventions added to the portal. I'd say about 95% of the technical forum help topics, tool suggestions, tutorials and whatnot were written by him and him alone, as well as on-person support on the server. He knows what he says first hand, sadly.
On March 16 2016 05:28 xboi209 wrote:
- The new patch won't prevent motivated people to create the next big thing, but the SC community has dwindled and there aren't many people willing to do that kind of stuff anymore.
That's not nearly as bad as you might think. A few years back I thought the same, but I was 'only' somewhat familiar with the European scene and found some people like you from North America. Don't underestimate the East European and Asian Scene though, there's plenty of lunatics left willing to contribute. Really, I wouldn't have expected a Polish flamer would release an effective launcher, or yoda getting Defiler up. Whenever you lost hope one of them pops up, you included.
Also, back in the days we lacked coders even more, at least from what I remembered. Most of the players and admins were students of MINT-subjects, but close to none really studied IT-related subjects, rather physics, maths, chemistry and whatnot. Nowadays there's more people with a general knowledge, so they don't have to invest nearly as much of their free time than they did a decade back. There's hope and hope dies last. I don't think Fish will have a problem to transfer.
Yet, it all depends on ICCup. If they start to hesitate it could really be the end of that server and the foreign scene will take a bigger hit than expected. Not sure if a total newb would undergo the Fish registration and the language issues.
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Wtf there's a Chinese server?
quick edit: Fish will be getting an update as well as all content from wProgramming if a patch is released, and they are actually preparing for a predicted wave of new players.
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yes, but they are using one of the older patches iirc. something like 1.13 or so? I'm not sure.
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On March 16 2016 18:02 GeckoXp wrote:
Yet, it all depends on ICCup. If they start to hesitate it could really be the end of that server and the foreign scene will take a bigger hit than expected. Not sure if a total newb would undergo the Fish registration and the language issues.
I feel like if/when Fish switches, ICCup has no choice but to switch or risk losing a big portion of its current active population. Sure, many low rank players might stick around, especially those that don't even know what Fish is. But if forced with a choice due to convenience and progress, I bet most strong players would pick Fish even if it meant that they had to bite the bullet and take a few hits to their ego in the process. I doubt anyone will keep two version of SC installed. Unless you can do something tricky like using an old .exe? Does that work like that? I don't recall. However, I doubt people would even go that far. Whenever there is a convenience issue, you're going to lose a lot of people in any walk of life imo.
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mca64Launcher also wont be updated
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EPT
