EPTNext SC Patch: The Good, The Bad, The Worse - Page 8
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
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Miragee
8565 Posts
On April 16 2016 01:00 Chef wrote: I think people who are experienced but not at the top of the scene tend to be more worried about minor changes like fixing goon and marine freeze than players who are at the top of the scene or the bottom. Because those lower-middle skill players look up to the top players, and they are lower-middle skill players because they are overly focused on specific details like goon micro. The top level player is not afraid of your goons not freezing anymore shaking their position as a great player, because to them there are a zillion things more important and goon micro is just something you get used to, not something that requires special concentration. Fixing it for weaker players would have no impact except to make players less frustrated when they don't know how to unfreeze the goon because, unintuitively, the way you do that is hitting stop. That said, if they're fixing bugs they're probably looking at much more severe ones, because it costs money to fix them and the general gameplay is more or less not broken. Improved pathing would probably just make the game more fun to play, in the same way 1.12's right-click rally was a huge plus. That came well into the proscene too, and probably did change things a little but not for the worse. That's bullshit, sorry. | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On April 16 2016 05:04 xboi209 wrote: I feel like the kind of "bugs" you guys are discussing is completely different from what Blizzard is going to be fixing in the next patch. The bugs will more likely be the graphical issues that plague StarCraft and probably a few other non-gameplay stuff. So much this. Why would Bliz risk the uproar that could accompany actual gameplay bugs when they can work on net (port forwarding) and graphical issues that everyone will love them for, and which actually impact the continued lifetime and sales of their games. (yes BW,D2 and WC3 are still sold in retail stores) | ||
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mca64Launcher_
Poland629 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 16 2016 06:19 mca64Launcher_ wrote: Condolences. new patch = end of mca64Launcher  | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote: No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 15 2016 18:11 JieXian wrote: someone did a mod on sc2 (i think he tweaked the unit collision size) and it resulted in armies not moving in a dung beetle ball. i.e. pathing doesn't cause balls Good point. User was warned for triple posting | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On April 16 2016 05:04 xboi209 wrote: I feel like the kind of "bugs" you guys are discussing is completely different from what Blizzard is going to be fixing in the next patch. The bugs will more likely be the graphical issues that plague StarCraft and probably a few other non-gameplay stuff. this though I would also like to throw my support behind those arguing for goon pathing, muta stacking and other interesting and unintended bugs. If blizzard fixes anything other than OS compatibility and maybe graphical glitches, I won't be upgrading to the latest version. I grew to love the game as is and I'd rather not see them mess things up. Don't bother trying to change my mind on these issues, it's already made up lol | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 16 2016 04:53 Shinokuki wrote: I think you have no idea how a bug fix can essentially ruin the game. Someone like Bisu can probably get 8/10 scrab to work while a nooby would gt 2/10 scrab to work. Reaver scrab bug is part of player's skills. Muta bug also will destroy zvt balance. zergs would get destroyed by terran MnM army during that crucial mid game. Also pathing bug can also be solved by a player simply moving around the path with its units (its also part of skill). Please don't give us that attitude. It will ruin the game. First off, scarab bug probably isn't a bug. I used to work in the vid game industry, and a bug is essentially anything in the game that is NOT INTENDED by the developer. If you've read Boxer's book As Crazy As Me, he mentions the major reason for switching from Protoss to Terran early on in his career the fact that as of the 1.04 patch, reavers 'became retarded', i.e. the scarabs didn't work quite right anymore. So the 'scarab bug' was quite possibly introduced intentionally by Blizzard in 1.04 as a way to tone down reavers, though we can't know for 100% certain. But if so, it's not something they would ever 'fix', because they wanted it to be that way, i.e. it's not a bug, it's their idea of game balance. With muta stacking, I'm more sympathetic with you, they couldn't have intended it, yet it did have a balancing effect in TvZ. But, what does it tell you that they needed something unintentional to make TvZ more balanced? It means TvZ was unbalanced, and that Bliz should've worked on that more, and had it be balanced without the dumb luck of an unintentional, player-discovered technique (also highlights how BW was never perfect, even after the big balance patches). Bugs are random things, and they usually don't help a game, they hurt it. The few that do are sort of the exceptions that prove the rule. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 16 2016 05:04 xboi209 wrote: I feel like the kind of "bugs" you guys are discussing is completely different from what Blizzard is going to be fixing in the next patch. The bugs will more likely be the graphical issues that plague StarCraft and probably a few other non-gameplay stuff. Well, we've got you down for predicting Bliz will only be fixing minor/graphical issues, while Chef's predicting that Bliz will only be working on the 'more severe' bugs. Anyone else want to throw in a prediction? lol. Fact is, no one knows for 100% certain what Bliz will do, only that they're working on "bug fixes" in general, as they themselves have said. | ||
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mca64Launcher_
Poland629 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 16 2016 13:07 mca64Launcher_ wrote: im pretty sure they will only fix problems on new systems like Windows 10 cause they still sells this game. They only wants $$$ thats all, they cant sell this game when you cant it run. Also i doubt they will make it good and all will works flawless haha What Blizzard said: "As of right now we're working on Compatibility and bug fixing for SC and SC:Brood War." I'm assuming 'compatibility' means 'works better on modern OSes', which still leaves 'bug fixing' as the other major thing they're doing. | ||
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Jealous
10188 Posts
On April 16 2016 13:17 [[Starlight]] wrote: What Blizzard said: "As of right now we're working on Compatibility and bug fixing for SC and SC:Brood War." I'm assuming 'compatibility' means 'works better on modern OSes', which still leaves 'bug fixing' as the other major thing they're doing. You can hope while the rest of us pray that your dreams don't come true. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 16 2016 13:33 Jealous wrote: You can hope while the rest of us pray that your dreams don't come true. It's not my dreams, it's simply what Blizzard themselves have said they're doing: http://us.battle.net/en/forum/topic/20743264164?page=1#19 | ||
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Jealous
10188 Posts
On April 16 2016 13:38 [[Starlight]] wrote: It's not my dreams, it's simply what Blizzard themselves have said they're doing: http://us.battle.net/en/forum/topic/20743264164?page=1#19 You've posted that enough times already, I think we all know what was said. The problem is their statement is very vague. Some hope that by "bug fixes" they mean things that don't affect gameplay, whereas you think it will include things like Dragoon pathing and other such things. Hence my statement. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On April 16 2016 14:12 Jealous wrote: You've posted that enough times already, I think we all know what was said. The problem is their statement is very vague. Some hope that by "bug fixes" they mean things that don't affect gameplay, whereas you think it will include things like Dragoon pathing and other such things. Hence my statement. I said they're working on bug fixes, which they are. You then made some crack about my dreams. It's not my fault that you weren't initially clear. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote: I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. they need to not touch anything other than making it compatible bugs are something we've all got used to, even the shitty pathing | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On April 15 2016 14:38 _Animus_ wrote: Yes it is like saying that. Reaver suicide into static defence should not be changed. The game should not be made easier for the casual player. Casual players will not come. I do not want them if they did. yeah, its like saying that the guardian and reaver suicide into static defence is also good for the game. Ive seen pro's on stream lose game because of shitty goon AI on ramp, its so silly. If pros having trouble with goon ai what about the regular player? Another thing is the game is very old, player base constantly decreases, which will affect skill level in time. If the game doesnt become more user friendly it cant hold itself in the future, where casual gamer wouldnt even want to do shit with such hard game. | ||
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Jealous
10188 Posts
On April 16 2016 15:51 Dazed_Spy wrote: Yes it is like saying that. Reaver suicide into static defence should not be changed. The game should not be made easier for the casual player. Casual players will not come. I do not want them if they did. To be fair, I think the majority of us started as casual gamers. Making the game more accessible will hopefully bring more players in. The casuals who decide to get good will only contribute to the scene. However, I agree with the point that I think you're trying to make, in that Blizzard shouldn't implement fixes to the game that would make it casual-friendly (like Reaver/Guardian into static d, something that is corrected with experience, skill, mindfulness, and effort). This would negatively impact the existing player base and is unnecessary, in my opinion. Plenty of games exist that have very high requirements for being "good" and I don't mind Brood War being one of them. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On April 16 2016 15:56 Jealous wrote: Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.To be fair, I think the majority of us started as casual gamers. However, I agree with the point that I think you're trying to make, in that Blizzard shouldn't implement fixes to the game that would make it casual-friendly (like Reaver/Guardian into static d, something that is corrected with experience, skill, mindfulness, and effort). This would negatively impact the existing player base and is unnecessary, in my opinion. Plenty of games exist that have very high requirements for being "good" and I don't mind Brood War being one of them. | ||
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