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On April 15 2016 16:18 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So is this the brood war update that blizzard was hiring for or just a basic bug fix? Why bug fix an old game if you are going to do a full update?
It looks like an update (resolution, works well/better on modern OSes) plus bug fixes.
No overt balance changes AFAIK, though some are arguing that fixing bugs changes balance a lot (which I think is overstating it a lot).
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On April 15 2016 16:04 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 15:50 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 14:56 Jealous wrote:On April 15 2016 14:38 _Animus_ wrote:
yeah, its like saying that the guardian and reaver suicide into static defence is also good for the game. Ive seen pro's on stream lose game because of shitty goon AI on ramp, its so silly. If pros having trouble with goon ai what about the regular player? Another thing is the game is very old, player base constantly decreases, which will affect skill level in time. If the game doesnt become more user friendly it cant hold itself in the future, where casual gamer wouldnt even want to do shit with such hard game. You mean user-friendly like SC2? We see what came from that. I stand by my words, to change any gameplay aspect of Brood War would be a grave error. I don't like SC2, but at the same time I can't buy the notion that you can't even fix bugs in BW for fear of altering (improving?) gameplay in any way. If you lose a game due to some sh!tty bug like a unit getting stuck on a ramp, you don't say to yourself, "Well gee, I love how the bugs contribute to a certain person's static idea of what perfect balance is"... nope. Instead you go, "F**king stupid bug, FIX IT!!!".  You can't see BW as some sort of holy untouchable shrine of perfection, because it isn't, and never was.... they made roughly 100 balance changes to the game over time, and probably would've made still more if it had made sense resources-wise to keep balance-patching a game that'd already been out for three years as of 1.08 (the last balance patch). I love BW too, but to say you can't fix obvious bugs that no one likes because of some alleged perfection that isn't really there is definitely taking things too far. Can you imagine someone as of the 1.00 patch (i.e. day of release) saying, "BW is perfect and untouchable as is, any changes at all, even bug fixes, will ruin the game"?? We would've ended up with a mediocre game frozen in time, that almost no one would've cared about even a couple of years after release, much less 18 years as it is now. The last balance patch was made in 2001 (1.08). All of the developments in the game since then are based on a static foundation, which has seen MU balance shift, strategies become superior and then inferior, so on and so forth. I will go ahead and say that this is the closest thing there has been to perfect balance in RTS (even in games where the factions are largely homogenous, one is almost always preferred). We are going to jeopardize this pinnacle of balance for the sake of making it easier for people to move some units around? This effectively decreases the skill ceiling of the game, IMO. Bisu's Dragoon micro vs. Flash is impressive because everyone knows Dragoons are retarded. Free's bust against FBH (iirc) was an achievement because his control of Dragoons and Scarab targeting made him achieve something no one would have otherwise expected. If those plays become commonplace because of fixes made to the Dragoon, those plays lose their luster and the viability of certain strategies will inevitably shift. That is not something I would be willing to risk. When a person encounters a difficulty in the game, they should think "Am I doing this the best possible way, and if not, how can I improve it?" NOT "It's broken, fix it." Isn't that what the SC2 community commonly complains about in their scene right now: people crying loud enough to have things changed before a possible work-around, counter strategy, or implementation of "underpowered" units is discovered. This translates into Brood War as "get better." Why did Progamers never come out and say that the Dragoon needs to be fixed, as far as I recall? Do you think we know better than them? Or perhaps they have accepted and learned how to make the best of the Dragoon's somewhat faulty pathing, knowing that it is what it is, and made it a staple unit for Protoss in the majority of their games?
Obvious, crappy bugs are NOT a feature, no matter how hard we try to rationalize it. 
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On April 15 2016 16:33 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 16:18 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So is this the brood war update that blizzard was hiring for or just a basic bug fix? Why bug fix an old game if you are going to do a full update? It looks like an update (resolution, works well/better on modern OSes) plus bug fixes. No overt balance changes AFAIK, though some are arguing that fixing bugs changes balance a lot (which I don't agree with).
Just depends on what kinds of bugs  I'm fine with them fixing the color/multiplayer lobby screen ^^
EDIT: To your previous comment, obvious bugs may not be "features" of the game but from Mutalisk stacking to Scarab dudding, they have played an incalculable role in the development of the game thus far. Therefore, I think it unwise to alter them. Let's agree to disagree ^^
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On April 15 2016 16:35 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 16:33 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 16:18 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So is this the brood war update that blizzard was hiring for or just a basic bug fix? Why bug fix an old game if you are going to do a full update? It looks like an update (resolution, works well/better on modern OSes) plus bug fixes. No overt balance changes AFAIK, though some are arguing that fixing bugs changes balance a lot (which I don't agree with). Just depends on what kinds of bugs I'm fine with them fixing the color/multiplayer lobby screen ^^ EDIT: To your previous comment, obvious bugs may not be "features" of the game but from Mutalisk stacking to Scarab dudding, they have played an incalculable role in the development of the game thus far. Therefore, I think it unwise to alter them. Let's agree to disagree ^^
I definitely disagree, and I think if bug fixes bother you, you are likely going to be bothered by this update.
From Bliz:
"As of right now we're working on Compatibility and bug fixing for SC and SC:Brood War."
http://us.battle.net/en/forum/topic/20743264164?page=1#20
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On April 15 2016 16:34 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 16:04 Jealous wrote:On April 15 2016 15:50 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 14:56 Jealous wrote:On April 15 2016 14:38 _Animus_ wrote:
yeah, its like saying that the guardian and reaver suicide into static defence is also good for the game. Ive seen pro's on stream lose game because of shitty goon AI on ramp, its so silly. If pros having trouble with goon ai what about the regular player? Another thing is the game is very old, player base constantly decreases, which will affect skill level in time. If the game doesnt become more user friendly it cant hold itself in the future, where casual gamer wouldnt even want to do shit with such hard game. You mean user-friendly like SC2? We see what came from that. I stand by my words, to change any gameplay aspect of Brood War would be a grave error. I don't like SC2, but at the same time I can't buy the notion that you can't even fix bugs in BW for fear of altering (improving?) gameplay in any way. If you lose a game due to some sh!tty bug like a unit getting stuck on a ramp, you don't say to yourself, "Well gee, I love how the bugs contribute to a certain person's static idea of what perfect balance is"... nope. Instead you go, "F**king stupid bug, FIX IT!!!". You can't see BW as some sort of holy untouchable shrine of perfection, because it isn't, and never was.... they made roughly 100 balance changes to the game over time, and probably would've made still more if it had made sense resources-wise to keep balance-patching a game that'd already been out for three years as of 1.08 (the last balance patch). I love BW too, but to say you can't fix obvious bugs that no one likes because of some alleged perfection that isn't really there is definitely taking things too far. Can you imagine someone as of the 1.00 patch (i.e. day of release) saying, "BW is perfect and untouchable as is, any changes at all, even bug fixes, will ruin the game"?? We would've ended up with a mediocre game frozen in time, that almost no one would've cared about even a couple of years after release, much less 18 years as it is now. The last balance patch was made in 2001 (1.08). All of the developments in the game since then are based on a static foundation, which has seen MU balance shift, strategies become superior and then inferior, so on and so forth. I will go ahead and say that this is the closest thing there has been to perfect balance in RTS (even in games where the factions are largely homogenous, one is almost always preferred). We are going to jeopardize this pinnacle of balance for the sake of making it easier for people to move some units around? This effectively decreases the skill ceiling of the game, IMO. Bisu's Dragoon micro vs. Flash is impressive because everyone knows Dragoons are retarded. Free's bust against FBH (iirc) was an achievement because his control of Dragoons and Scarab targeting made him achieve something no one would have otherwise expected. If those plays become commonplace because of fixes made to the Dragoon, those plays lose their luster and the viability of certain strategies will inevitably shift. That is not something I would be willing to risk. When a person encounters a difficulty in the game, they should think "Am I doing this the best possible way, and if not, how can I improve it?" NOT "It's broken, fix it." Isn't that what the SC2 community commonly complains about in their scene right now: people crying loud enough to have things changed before a possible work-around, counter strategy, or implementation of "underpowered" units is discovered. This translates into Brood War as "get better." Why did Progamers never come out and say that the Dragoon needs to be fixed, as far as I recall? Do you think we know better than them? Or perhaps they have accepted and learned how to make the best of the Dragoon's somewhat faulty pathing, knowing that it is what it is, and made it a staple unit for Protoss in the majority of their games? Obvious, crappy bugs are NOT a feature, no matter how much we try to rationalize it.
If you think those "crappy" bugs are something that should be fixed, why do think Blizzard had not fixed them in, like, 1999 or 2001? They clearly were aware, at least of the obvious ones, back then. But they liked the game how it was -with- them and intentionally not fixed them.
And if players work with "crappy bugs" for years and perfect the art of dealing with them, they DO become a feature. It's just an unintentional feature.
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On April 15 2016 16:52 shin ken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 16:34 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 16:04 Jealous wrote:On April 15 2016 15:50 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 14:56 Jealous wrote:On April 15 2016 14:38 _Animus_ wrote:
yeah, its like saying that the guardian and reaver suicide into static defence is also good for the game. Ive seen pro's on stream lose game because of shitty goon AI on ramp, its so silly. If pros having trouble with goon ai what about the regular player? Another thing is the game is very old, player base constantly decreases, which will affect skill level in time. If the game doesnt become more user friendly it cant hold itself in the future, where casual gamer wouldnt even want to do shit with such hard game. You mean user-friendly like SC2? We see what came from that. I stand by my words, to change any gameplay aspect of Brood War would be a grave error. I don't like SC2, but at the same time I can't buy the notion that you can't even fix bugs in BW for fear of altering (improving?) gameplay in any way. If you lose a game due to some sh!tty bug like a unit getting stuck on a ramp, you don't say to yourself, "Well gee, I love how the bugs contribute to a certain person's static idea of what perfect balance is"... nope. Instead you go, "F**king stupid bug, FIX IT!!!". You can't see BW as some sort of holy untouchable shrine of perfection, because it isn't, and never was.... they made roughly 100 balance changes to the game over time, and probably would've made still more if it had made sense resources-wise to keep balance-patching a game that'd already been out for three years as of 1.08 (the last balance patch). I love BW too, but to say you can't fix obvious bugs that no one likes because of some alleged perfection that isn't really there is definitely taking things too far. Can you imagine someone as of the 1.00 patch (i.e. day of release) saying, "BW is perfect and untouchable as is, any changes at all, even bug fixes, will ruin the game"?? We would've ended up with a mediocre game frozen in time, that almost no one would've cared about even a couple of years after release, much less 18 years as it is now. The last balance patch was made in 2001 (1.08). All of the developments in the game since then are based on a static foundation, which has seen MU balance shift, strategies become superior and then inferior, so on and so forth. I will go ahead and say that this is the closest thing there has been to perfect balance in RTS (even in games where the factions are largely homogenous, one is almost always preferred). We are going to jeopardize this pinnacle of balance for the sake of making it easier for people to move some units around? This effectively decreases the skill ceiling of the game, IMO. Bisu's Dragoon micro vs. Flash is impressive because everyone knows Dragoons are retarded. Free's bust against FBH (iirc) was an achievement because his control of Dragoons and Scarab targeting made him achieve something no one would have otherwise expected. If those plays become commonplace because of fixes made to the Dragoon, those plays lose their luster and the viability of certain strategies will inevitably shift. That is not something I would be willing to risk. When a person encounters a difficulty in the game, they should think "Am I doing this the best possible way, and if not, how can I improve it?" NOT "It's broken, fix it." Isn't that what the SC2 community commonly complains about in their scene right now: people crying loud enough to have things changed before a possible work-around, counter strategy, or implementation of "underpowered" units is discovered. This translates into Brood War as "get better." Why did Progamers never come out and say that the Dragoon needs to be fixed, as far as I recall? Do you think we know better than them? Or perhaps they have accepted and learned how to make the best of the Dragoon's somewhat faulty pathing, knowing that it is what it is, and made it a staple unit for Protoss in the majority of their games? Obvious, crappy bugs are NOT a feature, no matter how much we try to rationalize it. If you think those "crappy" bugs are something that should be fixed, why do think Blizzard had not fixed them in, like, 1999 or 2001? They clearly were aware, at least of the obvious ones, back then. But they liked the game how it was -with- them and intentionally not fixed them. And if players work with "crappy bugs" for years and perfect the art of dealing with them, they DO become a feature. It's just an unintentional feature.
I've worked in the video game industry... all games get released with bugs, you just have to make a judgement call as to if a) its a bug that a gamer is likely to encounter, and b) if it affects the game in a negative ENOUGH way to be a huge problem.
You can't fix absolutely everything, you just don't have the time and resources to do so, particularly on bigger and more complex games, and particularly on games that have to make a certain release date (i.e. 'in time for Xmas', or 'by the end of such-and-such business quarter').
So yeah, Bliz knew that things like goon pathing weren't great, but at the time, they couldn't fix it and/or were still adding and testing other bug fixes, balance improvements, and features to the game (such as replays). They prioritized, and goon pathing didn't make the cut.
But now maybe it will. So, me happy (potentially). Probably many other folks as well, if it and/or other bugs get fixed. Why settle for crappy elements in an otherwise awesome game when you don't have to?
Oh, and the 'bugs are a feature' thing is a well-known joke in the vid game industry. For one example of it, there was a console game back in the day (SNES? Genesis?) where if you went to a particular place in a level, the game would lock up/crash. OBVIOUS, extremely shitty bug.
But the developer didn't want to put the resources into fixing it, so they instead added some line in the instruction manual about how the bad guy had laid some 'traps' in the level that would freeze the game, and it was up to you to memorize where they were and avoid them.(!!)
Total brass balls to do something like that, but it was fairly early days in console gaming, and enough ppl bought into the explanation that they got away with it, lol. 
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On April 15 2016 16:18 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So is this the brood war update that blizzard was hiring for or just a basic bug fix? Why bug fix an old game if you are going to do a full update?
What do you mean by "full update?" If you meant the "remake" that was sensationalized, no, at least not in the next patch.
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So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys.
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On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys.
I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately).
For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck.
And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW.
So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. 
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On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs.
They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want.
Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent!
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BW bugs are like real life bugs. I may sometimes tumble, same as dragon can bug a bit behind mineral line. BW bugs make units so much more realistic. In SC2 everything behaves like a robot in the factory -> perfect, 100% repeatable moves and actions. No flaws, just like repeating a movie.
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On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent!
Don't know what thread you're reading, but I already said multiple times I don't like SC2, and do love BW.
And, you're offering a false choice, i.e. 'Don't fix anything and keep BW pure', or 'Fix bugs and it'll turn into SC2!!!!'. Somehow. Even though BW is a totally different design.
So yeah... tell us another.
BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release).
If it makes you feel better, there is some chance that bad unit pathing may not be fixed or at least may not be FULLY fixed, since apparently SC/BW was programmed in a certain way that makes this difficult (diagonal/nonstandard gridding or somesuch? there was an article on it somewhere).
But whether it's fixed, partially fixed, or not fixed at all, it seems likely that SOME THINGS will get fixed that ultraconservative purists who cherish even the bugs will cry over. Oh well.
Again, go Bliz, crush da bugs, crush 'em up good.
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On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys.
someone did a mod on sc2 (i think he tweaked the unit collision size) and it resulted in armies not moving in a dung beetle ball.
ie pathing doesn't cause balls
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www.youtube.com
this is an obvious bug that should be fixed. Myself personally, and I hope the other proponents of bug fixes, have this in mind when talking about bugs that should be fixed.
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On April 15 2016 14:38 _Animus_ wrote:
yeah, its like saying that the guardian and reaver suicide into static defence is also good for the game.
Oh gosh, can't fix that. It'd turn BW into SC2, don'cha know. 
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On April 15 2016 19:57 B-royal wrote:www.youtube.comthis is an obvious bug that should be fixed. Myself personally, and I hope the other proponents of bug fixes, have this in mind when talking about bugs that should be fixed.
That and also goon freeze are very bad bugs. Ive lost a few games by fd push because one of my dragoons freezes during battle. Also when you put workers to distant mine minerals, game should calculate ground distance instead of air and when there is an obstacle, like neutral building or something units should be able to recognize that and not loop around in circles.
Perfect gateway placement probe stuck bug also.
Things are far from perfect.
On April 15 2016 20:29 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 14:38 _Animus_ wrote:
yeah, its like saying that the guardian and reaver suicide into static defence is also good for the game.
Oh gosh, can't fix that. It'd turn BW into SC2, don'cha know.
Yeah, u should control the guardians or reavers to not go into cannon range, because there is not enough things to do in game anyways. 200 apm is average for casuals. Rally point also useless, when u can have the feature to click on your units and tell them to move.
Im being sarcastic to emphasize on just how hardcore this game is and with such puristic view over it we can end up with only a handful of players after some years. As game gets old player base gets old too and execution gets harder, on the other hand new players would expect some product close enough to the modern standarts, so they can enjoy and not leave after crushing defeat from players with 10+ years experience, while trying to grasp the old mechanics of the game. Pro scene is gone, we dont have the players who masterfully overcomed every obstalce they encounter in the game. That scene itself was the biggest inspiration for many to play the game. Those times ended and i do think another change should be made so we can bring some people back.
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On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release).
No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck.
I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT.
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On April 15 2016 16:27 shin ken wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 15:51 RoomOfMush wrote:On April 15 2016 14:56 Jealous wrote:On April 15 2016 14:38 _Animus_ wrote:
yeah, its like saying that the guardian and reaver suicide into static defence is also good for the game. Ive seen pro's on stream lose game because of shitty goon AI on ramp, its so silly. If pros having trouble with goon ai what about the regular player? Another thing is the game is very old, player base constantly decreases, which will affect skill level in time. If the game doesnt become more user friendly it cant hold itself in the future, where casual gamer wouldnt even want to do shit with such hard game. You mean user-friendly like SC2? We see what came from that. I stand by my words, to change any gameplay aspect of Brood War would be a grave error. This is the same attitude of conservatives banning all kinds of things they dont approve of. Gay marriage? Nope! Womans rights? Nope. The good old times when everything was better. You dont want no change. Change == bad. Always. It is really bad to just shut your eyes and scream "DONT CHANGE ANYTHING!!111 ITS PURRFECT!". I am not saying they shouldnt be changing something, but you need to be more open instead of just blindly shooting every idea down. Think first. Maybe good can come from it. The best thing about a balance patch right now is that we can simply refuse to play it. You dont like it? Play on a different server. But sometimes change can bring good things as well. You should not condemn it before you have actually seen it. You must be a troll right? Since 2001 pro gamers dedicated their lives to this game, never expecting anything to get fixed ever and just getting good with the tools the game gave them and something incredible beautiful came out of it. And now in 20-fucking-16, you, random TL-user #9000 come along and want it changed. No sir, if you think that, you simply don't "get" BW and never loved it. Go play another game with perfect unit pathing. At any rate, another thread has mutated into the retarted monthly balance discussion. It's a shame because that clearly wasn't the intend if the OP.
Well, I think you are simply an immature prick. Thats an opinion, not fact, as much as yours.
I just said one should never speak in generalizations as they are almost always wrong. Then you just come ahead and speak in generalizations. Its just sad.
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I think people who are experienced but not at the top of the scene tend to be more worried about minor changes like fixing goon and marine freeze than players who are at the top of the scene or the bottom. Because those lower-middle skill players look up to the top players, and they are lower-middle skill players because they are overly focused on specific details like goon micro. The top level player is not afraid of your goons not freezing anymore shaking their position as a great player, because to them there are a zillion things more important and goon micro is just something you get used to, not something that requires special concentration. Fixing it for weaker players would have no impact except to make players less frustrated when they don't know how to unfreeze the goon because, unintuitively, the way you do that is hitting stop.
That said, if they're fixing bugs they're probably looking at much more severe ones, because it costs money to fix them and the general gameplay is more or less not broken. Improved pathing would probably just make the game more fun to play, in the same way 1.12's right-click rally was a huge plus. That came well into the proscene too, and probably did change things a little but not for the worse.
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On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! Don't know what thread you're reading, but I already said multiple times I don't like SC2, and do love BW. And, you're offering a false choice, i.e. 'Don't fix anything and keep BW pure', or 'Fix bugs and it'll turn into SC2!!!!'. Somehow. Even though BW is a totally different design. So yeah... tell us another. BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). If it makes you feel better, there is some chance that bad unit pathing may not be fixed or at least may not be FULLY fixed, since apparently SC/BW was programmed in a certain way that makes this difficult (diagonal/nonstandard gridding or somesuch? there was an article on it somewhere). But whether it's fixed, partially fixed, or not fixed at all, it seems likely that SOME THINGS will get fixed that ultraconservative purists who cherish even the bugs will cry over. Oh well. Again, go Bliz, crush da bugs, crush 'em up good.
I think you have no idea how a bug fix can essentially ruin the game. Someone like Bisu can probably get 8/10 scrab to work while a nooby would gt 2/10 scrab to work. Reaver scrab bug is part of player's skills. Muta bug also will destroy zvt balance. zergs would get destroyed by terran MnM army during that crucial mid game. Also pathing bug can also be solved by a player simply moving around the path with its units (its also part of skill). Please don't give us that attitude. It will ruin the game.
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