|
trust me, blizzard would not makes any chnages to a ingame play.
|
On April 16 2016 16:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.
No, we aren't, and that's okay. I first played when I was 9, so I understand what you mean. Making Brood War more accessible for everyone WILL bring in new players. New players join all the time. The activity issue is that older players leave at a faster rate, at least in the foreign scene.
Having a bunch of new players fill up the strategy section with whining and getting facerolled is just a filter for existence in this environment. Some people push through and become better. I agree with you that there are many "new" players who post in the Strategy section and then disappear a week later, but I've also witnessed the growth of many new players over the past few years because they truly loved the game. Making this game more universally available will increase the amount of players retained, if not the retention rate, simply due to mathematics. If there are 10 new players this month, only 1 of which sticks around for a year or more and improves, then increasing exposure and availability through a new patch would increase that number to 20 and 2, respectively. Brood War revival is what you make it to be. For me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough.
How do you even bring in casual players in the first place if you dont make the game more accessible, in the ways that you and I dont want? Let alone keep them? If I could wave a magic wand and get new casual players maybe I'd do it, but within the context of reality, its always about making actual changes directed to making the game easy to play.
That question is a bit too broad and hypothetical for me to answer in definite terms, but I feel that exposure through various websites like Reddit, TeamLiquid, Battle.net, etc. helps. Keeping them is up to them, not us, but if the game becomes more available in new OS and players don't have to go through a multi-step process involving third party launchers in order to experience the game, there will be some that are kept. Making the game easy to play is out of the question for me, and I would not trade that for more players, so that point of discussion is one I'm not interested in pursuing.
|
On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs.  They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent.
I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing.
You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well.
|
On April 16 2016 21:38 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing. You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well.
Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage. Simplest examples, when terran sieges up my natural i click my goons to move back, they start to move then 2-3 of them wonder around and gets killed in tank fire range, or when goons cannot go to the point where you want whitout runing around and suiciding in minefields. Having goons on highground shooting down other units can backfire too, as goons cant recognise when to stop and start fire when i put it on the edge of highground and we again get the same runaround, ive seen jangbi on stream lost a game having the highground advantage thanks to the goons ai disadvantage.
Jealous said about mindfullnes effort and attention needed in such situations, thats righ indeed, but wouldnt be better to make my macro produciton, or make drop at the same time, or lead another battle elsewhere while im struggling with my dragoons. Game would greatly benefit of some small enhancements, well be able to execute cleaner gameplay more multitasking, and a spectator can enjoy watching high level players push the game even further.
|
On April 16 2016 16:55 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 16:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.
No, we aren't, and that's okay. I first played when I was 9, so I understand what you mean. Making Brood War more accessible for everyone WILL bring in new players. New players join all the time. The activity issue is that older players leave at a faster rate, at least in the foreign scene. Having a bunch of new players fill up the strategy section with whining and getting facerolled is just a filter for existence in this environment. Some people push through and become better. I agree with you that there are many "new" players who post in the Strategy section and then disappear a week later, but I've also witnessed the growth of many new players over the past few years because they truly loved the game. Making this game more universally available will increase the amount of players retained, if not the retention rate, simply due to mathematics. If there are 10 new players this month, only 1 of which sticks around for a year or more and improves, then increasing exposure and availability through a new patch would increase that number to 20 and 2, respectively. Brood War revival is what you make it to be. For me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough. Show nested quote +How do you even bring in casual players in the first place if you dont make the game more accessible, in the ways that you and I dont want? Let alone keep them? If I could wave a magic wand and get new casual players maybe I'd do it, but within the context of reality, its always about making actual changes directed to making the game easy to play. That question is a bit too broad and hypothetical for me to answer in definite terms, but I feel that exposure through various websites like Reddit, TeamLiquid, Battle.net, etc. helps. Keeping them is up to them, not us, but if the game becomes more available in new OS and players don't have to go through a multi-step process involving third party launchers in order to experience the game, there will be some that are kept. Making the game easy to play is out of the question for me, and I would not trade that for more players, so that point of discussion is one I'm not interested in pursuing. I never meant to imply im against any patch that either makes broodwar more compatible, or is used as a pretext for some deal that might draw in new players. But I see no value in changing the game for casuals or in pretending that any hypothetical new population would add much value to my experience of the game. I've seen a few new people in the community as well, and yeah the population curve is always a net negative, but the amount of these new players that both stick around and become good enough that I get any enjoyment out of their existence within the community is vanishingly small. I have no particular interest in seeing new players join the community or not join, because the reality is, neither will have much of an impact on my experience. My experience will still be going through the boring process of grinding on iccup until I find the years-seasoned players like you, that can actually give me a game, while the community gradually dwindles. Even with a compatibility patch we will still see negative growth in a years~ time.
"for me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough."
Alright, in that I think we agree completely. On April 16 2016 22:46 _Animus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 21:38 Miragee wrote:On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing. You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well. Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage. Uh...your point doesnt refute his. It can be true that goon pathing is always a net negative for the protoss player (mental stress and pragmatic ability to kill things) while also having an impact in favour of the defender. Goon pathing does amplify defenders advantage when goons try to run/attack up hill. Period. If you seriously think otherwise, I might suggest theres a reason your stuck on the lower end of iccup ranks.
|
On April 17 2016 01:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 16:55 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2016 16:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.
No, we aren't, and that's okay. I first played when I was 9, so I understand what you mean. Making Brood War more accessible for everyone WILL bring in new players. New players join all the time. The activity issue is that older players leave at a faster rate, at least in the foreign scene. Having a bunch of new players fill up the strategy section with whining and getting facerolled is just a filter for existence in this environment. Some people push through and become better. I agree with you that there are many "new" players who post in the Strategy section and then disappear a week later, but I've also witnessed the growth of many new players over the past few years because they truly loved the game. Making this game more universally available will increase the amount of players retained, if not the retention rate, simply due to mathematics. If there are 10 new players this month, only 1 of which sticks around for a year or more and improves, then increasing exposure and availability through a new patch would increase that number to 20 and 2, respectively. Brood War revival is what you make it to be. For me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough. How do you even bring in casual players in the first place if you dont make the game more accessible, in the ways that you and I dont want? Let alone keep them? If I could wave a magic wand and get new casual players maybe I'd do it, but within the context of reality, its always about making actual changes directed to making the game easy to play. That question is a bit too broad and hypothetical for me to answer in definite terms, but I feel that exposure through various websites like Reddit, TeamLiquid, Battle.net, etc. helps. Keeping them is up to them, not us, but if the game becomes more available in new OS and players don't have to go through a multi-step process involving third party launchers in order to experience the game, there will be some that are kept. Making the game easy to play is out of the question for me, and I would not trade that for more players, so that point of discussion is one I'm not interested in pursuing. I never meant to imply im against any patch that either makes broodwar more compatible, or is used as a pretext for some deal that might draw in new players. But I see no value in changing the game for casuals or in pretending that any hypothetical new population would add much value to my experience of the game. I've seen a few new people in the community as well, and yeah the population curve is always a net negative, but the amount of these new players that both stick around and become good enough that I get any enjoyment out of their existence within the community is vanishingly small. I have no particular interest in seeing new players join the community or not join, because the reality is, neither will have much of an impact on my experience. My experience will still be going through the boring process of grinding on iccup until I find the years-seasoned players like you, that can actually give me a game, while the community gradually dwindles. Even with a compatibility patch we will still see negative growth in a years~ time. "for me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough." Alright, in that I think we agree completely. Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 22:46 _Animus_ wrote:On April 16 2016 21:38 Miragee wrote:On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing. You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well. Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage. Uh...your point doesnt refute his. It can be true that goon pathing is always a net negative for the protoss player (mental stress and pragmatic ability to kill things) while also having an impact in favour of the defender. Goon pathing does amplify defenders advantage when goons try to run/attack up hill. Period. If you seriously think otherwise, I might suggest theres a reason your stuck on the lower end of iccup ranks.
nice post interesting thought on the matter. But the "if you don't agree, you suck" comment at the end was really not necessary, was it?
|
On April 17 2016 11:36 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2016 01:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:On April 16 2016 16:55 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2016 16:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.
No, we aren't, and that's okay. I first played when I was 9, so I understand what you mean. Making Brood War more accessible for everyone WILL bring in new players. New players join all the time. The activity issue is that older players leave at a faster rate, at least in the foreign scene. Having a bunch of new players fill up the strategy section with whining and getting facerolled is just a filter for existence in this environment. Some people push through and become better. I agree with you that there are many "new" players who post in the Strategy section and then disappear a week later, but I've also witnessed the growth of many new players over the past few years because they truly loved the game. Making this game more universally available will increase the amount of players retained, if not the retention rate, simply due to mathematics. If there are 10 new players this month, only 1 of which sticks around for a year or more and improves, then increasing exposure and availability through a new patch would increase that number to 20 and 2, respectively. Brood War revival is what you make it to be. For me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough. How do you even bring in casual players in the first place if you dont make the game more accessible, in the ways that you and I dont want? Let alone keep them? If I could wave a magic wand and get new casual players maybe I'd do it, but within the context of reality, its always about making actual changes directed to making the game easy to play. That question is a bit too broad and hypothetical for me to answer in definite terms, but I feel that exposure through various websites like Reddit, TeamLiquid, Battle.net, etc. helps. Keeping them is up to them, not us, but if the game becomes more available in new OS and players don't have to go through a multi-step process involving third party launchers in order to experience the game, there will be some that are kept. Making the game easy to play is out of the question for me, and I would not trade that for more players, so that point of discussion is one I'm not interested in pursuing. I never meant to imply im against any patch that either makes broodwar more compatible, or is used as a pretext for some deal that might draw in new players. But I see no value in changing the game for casuals or in pretending that any hypothetical new population would add much value to my experience of the game. I've seen a few new people in the community as well, and yeah the population curve is always a net negative, but the amount of these new players that both stick around and become good enough that I get any enjoyment out of their existence within the community is vanishingly small. I have no particular interest in seeing new players join the community or not join, because the reality is, neither will have much of an impact on my experience. My experience will still be going through the boring process of grinding on iccup until I find the years-seasoned players like you, that can actually give me a game, while the community gradually dwindles. Even with a compatibility patch we will still see negative growth in a years~ time. "for me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough." Alright, in that I think we agree completely. On April 16 2016 22:46 _Animus_ wrote:On April 16 2016 21:38 Miragee wrote:On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing. You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well. Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage. Uh...your point doesnt refute his. It can be true that goon pathing is always a net negative for the protoss player (mental stress and pragmatic ability to kill things) while also having an impact in favour of the defender. Goon pathing does amplify defenders advantage when goons try to run/attack up hill. Period. If you seriously think otherwise, I might suggest theres a reason your stuck on the lower end of iccup ranks. nice post interesting thought on the matter. But the "if you don't agree, you suck" comment at the end was really not necessary, was it?
It does come off almost as a little derogatory, but at the same time I can't really disagree. Goon pathing plays a significant role in many defenders advantage situations.
|
So when is it going to happen is the only thing I am curious about.
|
On April 17 2016 01:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 16:55 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2016 16:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.
No, we aren't, and that's okay. I first played when I was 9, so I understand what you mean. Making Brood War more accessible for everyone WILL bring in new players. New players join all the time. The activity issue is that older players leave at a faster rate, at least in the foreign scene. Having a bunch of new players fill up the strategy section with whining and getting facerolled is just a filter for existence in this environment. Some people push through and become better. I agree with you that there are many "new" players who post in the Strategy section and then disappear a week later, but I've also witnessed the growth of many new players over the past few years because they truly loved the game. Making this game more universally available will increase the amount of players retained, if not the retention rate, simply due to mathematics. If there are 10 new players this month, only 1 of which sticks around for a year or more and improves, then increasing exposure and availability through a new patch would increase that number to 20 and 2, respectively. Brood War revival is what you make it to be. For me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough. How do you even bring in casual players in the first place if you dont make the game more accessible, in the ways that you and I dont want? Let alone keep them? If I could wave a magic wand and get new casual players maybe I'd do it, but within the context of reality, its always about making actual changes directed to making the game easy to play. That question is a bit too broad and hypothetical for me to answer in definite terms, but I feel that exposure through various websites like Reddit, TeamLiquid, Battle.net, etc. helps. Keeping them is up to them, not us, but if the game becomes more available in new OS and players don't have to go through a multi-step process involving third party launchers in order to experience the game, there will be some that are kept. Making the game easy to play is out of the question for me, and I would not trade that for more players, so that point of discussion is one I'm not interested in pursuing. I never meant to imply im against any patch that either makes broodwar more compatible, or is used as a pretext for some deal that might draw in new players. But I see no value in changing the game for casuals or in pretending that any hypothetical new population would add much value to my experience of the game. I've seen a few new people in the community as well, and yeah the population curve is always a net negative, but the amount of these new players that both stick around and become good enough that I get any enjoyment out of their existence within the community is vanishingly small. I have no particular interest in seeing new players join the community or not join, because the reality is, neither will have much of an impact on my experience. My experience will still be going through the boring process of grinding on iccup until I find the years-seasoned players like you, that can actually give me a game, while the community gradually dwindles. Even with a compatibility patch we will still see negative growth in a years~ time. "for me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough." Alright, in that I think we agree completely. Show nested quote +On April 16 2016 22:46 _Animus_ wrote:On April 16 2016 21:38 Miragee wrote:On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing. You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well. Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage. Uh...your point doesnt refute his. It can be true that goon pathing is always a net negative for the protoss player (mental stress and pragmatic ability to kill things) while also having an impact in favour of the defender. Goon pathing does amplify defenders advantage when goons try to run/attack up hill. Period. If you seriously think otherwise, I might suggest theres a reason your stuck on the lower end of iccup ranks.
LOL, i dont say when attacker is using goons there is no defenders advantage, i only say that goons are giving you defenders disadvantage too with simple examples did you not understand that? If you are concerned about my skill level i wouldnt find the term stuck appropriate. You can see my iccup profile that i hardly play this game for years with less than 10 1v1 games on iccup for a season. I can stuck if i try to reach high rank but i fail to, but im not. I play for fun when i have the time and passion. Besides that if remember correctly i beat you in a tournament some years ago again without practice.
If you care only for your own experience and u enjoy watching the sinking ship bw is becoming, i find that a bit selfish to be honest. I too enjoy bw but that doesnt mean i dont see room for improvement. Modern korean scene is far away from pros were - fact and i see possibilities that can improve it, because these player not gonna grow younger and get better you know.
|
On April 19 2016 15:14 _Animus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2016 01:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:On April 16 2016 16:55 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2016 16:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.
No, we aren't, and that's okay. I first played when I was 9, so I understand what you mean. Making Brood War more accessible for everyone WILL bring in new players. New players join all the time. The activity issue is that older players leave at a faster rate, at least in the foreign scene. Having a bunch of new players fill up the strategy section with whining and getting facerolled is just a filter for existence in this environment. Some people push through and become better. I agree with you that there are many "new" players who post in the Strategy section and then disappear a week later, but I've also witnessed the growth of many new players over the past few years because they truly loved the game. Making this game more universally available will increase the amount of players retained, if not the retention rate, simply due to mathematics. If there are 10 new players this month, only 1 of which sticks around for a year or more and improves, then increasing exposure and availability through a new patch would increase that number to 20 and 2, respectively. Brood War revival is what you make it to be. For me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough. How do you even bring in casual players in the first place if you dont make the game more accessible, in the ways that you and I dont want? Let alone keep them? If I could wave a magic wand and get new casual players maybe I'd do it, but within the context of reality, its always about making actual changes directed to making the game easy to play. That question is a bit too broad and hypothetical for me to answer in definite terms, but I feel that exposure through various websites like Reddit, TeamLiquid, Battle.net, etc. helps. Keeping them is up to them, not us, but if the game becomes more available in new OS and players don't have to go through a multi-step process involving third party launchers in order to experience the game, there will be some that are kept. Making the game easy to play is out of the question for me, and I would not trade that for more players, so that point of discussion is one I'm not interested in pursuing. I never meant to imply im against any patch that either makes broodwar more compatible, or is used as a pretext for some deal that might draw in new players. But I see no value in changing the game for casuals or in pretending that any hypothetical new population would add much value to my experience of the game. I've seen a few new people in the community as well, and yeah the population curve is always a net negative, but the amount of these new players that both stick around and become good enough that I get any enjoyment out of their existence within the community is vanishingly small. I have no particular interest in seeing new players join the community or not join, because the reality is, neither will have much of an impact on my experience. My experience will still be going through the boring process of grinding on iccup until I find the years-seasoned players like you, that can actually give me a game, while the community gradually dwindles. Even with a compatibility patch we will still see negative growth in a years~ time. "for me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough." Alright, in that I think we agree completely. On April 16 2016 22:46 _Animus_ wrote:On April 16 2016 21:38 Miragee wrote:On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing. You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well. Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage. Uh...your point doesnt refute his. It can be true that goon pathing is always a net negative for the protoss player (mental stress and pragmatic ability to kill things) while also having an impact in favour of the defender. Goon pathing does amplify defenders advantage when goons try to run/attack up hill. Period. If you seriously think otherwise, I might suggest theres a reason your stuck on the lower end of iccup ranks. LOL, i dont say when attacker is using goons there is no defenders advantage, i only say that goons are giving you defenders disadvantage too with simple examples did you not understand that? What you said was "Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage.". Not a synonymous statement with your later reinterpretation, to say the least " If you are concerned about my skill level." No one is concerned, trust me.
|
i would like to see an official ranking and only one official server (to gather all players). Of course, fix the connection issues that the game have.
|
On April 17 2016 11:36 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2016 01:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:On April 16 2016 16:55 Jealous wrote:On April 16 2016 16:03 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Were not talking about the same phenomenon, though. I started as a casual player when I was five, you started as a casual player as an adult (?) and moved onto a private ladder while it was still relatively thriving. Hes talking about bringing in some new demographic into an extremely old and ossified game, who would then also play on this private server. I dont want an influx of casual players because starcraft is not a game for casual players. It was a game for casual rts players over a decade ago, and even then, it had a very low retention rate. Like, even lower than any games retention rate, which are all already very low. Why would I want a bunch of new players to buy a game, fill up the strategy section with whining, get face rolled by me in D ranks, only to have 1-3 more people actually stick a round to the point where they can take a game off me? Broodwar revival is a fantasy.
No, we aren't, and that's okay. I first played when I was 9, so I understand what you mean. Making Brood War more accessible for everyone WILL bring in new players. New players join all the time. The activity issue is that older players leave at a faster rate, at least in the foreign scene. Having a bunch of new players fill up the strategy section with whining and getting facerolled is just a filter for existence in this environment. Some people push through and become better. I agree with you that there are many "new" players who post in the Strategy section and then disappear a week later, but I've also witnessed the growth of many new players over the past few years because they truly loved the game. Making this game more universally available will increase the amount of players retained, if not the retention rate, simply due to mathematics. If there are 10 new players this month, only 1 of which sticks around for a year or more and improves, then increasing exposure and availability through a new patch would increase that number to 20 and 2, respectively. Brood War revival is what you make it to be. For me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough. How do you even bring in casual players in the first place if you dont make the game more accessible, in the ways that you and I dont want? Let alone keep them? If I could wave a magic wand and get new casual players maybe I'd do it, but within the context of reality, its always about making actual changes directed to making the game easy to play. That question is a bit too broad and hypothetical for me to answer in definite terms, but I feel that exposure through various websites like Reddit, TeamLiquid, Battle.net, etc. helps. Keeping them is up to them, not us, but if the game becomes more available in new OS and players don't have to go through a multi-step process involving third party launchers in order to experience the game, there will be some that are kept. Making the game easy to play is out of the question for me, and I would not trade that for more players, so that point of discussion is one I'm not interested in pursuing. I never meant to imply im against any patch that either makes broodwar more compatible, or is used as a pretext for some deal that might draw in new players. But I see no value in changing the game for casuals or in pretending that any hypothetical new population would add much value to my experience of the game. I've seen a few new people in the community as well, and yeah the population curve is always a net negative, but the amount of these new players that both stick around and become good enough that I get any enjoyment out of their existence within the community is vanishingly small. I have no particular interest in seeing new players join the community or not join, because the reality is, neither will have much of an impact on my experience. My experience will still be going through the boring process of grinding on iccup until I find the years-seasoned players like you, that can actually give me a game, while the community gradually dwindles. Even with a compatibility patch we will still see negative growth in a years~ time. "for me, having this game still around and all the active Korean leagues is "revival" enough." Alright, in that I think we agree completely. On April 16 2016 22:46 _Animus_ wrote:On April 16 2016 21:38 Miragee wrote:On April 16 2016 12:27 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 22:11 Miragee wrote:On April 15 2016 18:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:33 shin ken wrote:On April 15 2016 17:22 [[Starlight]] wrote:On April 15 2016 17:13 shin ken wrote:
So you think strafejumping in Quake should have been "fixed"? Or canceling in Street Fighter 2? Or wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee? Or Muta stacking in Broodwar?
Sure, those sound a bit more awesome than "weird Dragoon pathing" but there's a reason why a lot of folks hate the clean unit pathing in SC2 and would happily have it interchanged with something artificially stupid. Because the result of perfect pathing are deathballs of units. Which change the whole game at the most fundamental level. I think it's the biggest difference between SC2 and BW and I, personally, do not prefer passive gameplay and deathball armys. I think SC2's problems there are more due to unlimited unit selection plus some other game design choices that BW didn't make (fortunately). For every 'cool' bug you can name, most anyone else can name 50 bugs that aren't 'cool', and in fact, suck. And again, Blizzard has ALREADY SAID that they are right now, as we speak, working on bug fixes for SCBW. So, go Bliz, squish dem bugs. They don't said which bugs they would work on, but I can assure you they won't touch anything related to actual gameplay and balancing because they are not stupid and probably know what their audience want. Which you are obviously not a part of, because you seem to want different, "nicer" and "cleaner" game than Brood War, which you should rather play, so you don't have all those pesky bugs to mess with. May I recommend Starcraft 2? Or the Starbow mod if you want it to be a bit more old school. Those are excellent! BW is BW not because of bugs, but because of a long series of very good design decisions plus a whole lot of nitpicky balancing (a lot of it after release). No, BW is not BW because of bugs. But some "bugs" or polishing issues are huge part of what makes BW special. After reading your constant "yeah, but giving one unit better pathing doesn't change the balance" I think you don't understand the fundamentals of the defenders advantage. Why do you think there is next to no defenders advantage in SC2? Yes, also because of the high ground mechanic, but mostly because units move so perfect that you can just walk them through a choke like it doesn't matter. In SC2 units move through a choke like oil moves through a bottleneck. I'm not saying that changing Dragoon AI might not be a good idea. I don't know. But you have to be really careful and test it because you can't argue that it might not have a huge impact on the balance, especially in PvT. I'm more annoyed about things like goons getting stuck on ramps and freaking out... but better unit pathing would not eliminate defender's advantage. Not only would defenders still have the high ground advantage, as you yourself note, attackers moving through a choke or ramp automatically put themselves at a disadvantage, good pathing or no. Because you bunch up when moving through a choke due to there being LESS SPACE, so area-of-effect attacks/spells and splash damage eat you up, plus you are in-effect flanking yourself, i.e. you are for a few seconds a long skinny line of units, not all of whom can engage at once, while the ones in front are getting torn up by defenders, who, if well-positioned, can engage all at once (concaves and such). So again, better pathing would not eliminate defenders' advantage. I do agree with you that any changes/bug fixes should be well-tested, that's just being prudent. I just gave an example where chokes almost don't matter because of pathing: SC2. Yes, they still matter a bit but not a lot like in BW. If you change that in BW, you can't have defenses that consist of 3 tanks, some turrets, scvs and a small choke. Protoss players wouldn't have to drop/recall anymore they could just run into it. That would be stupid and would take away the whole notion that there are battles all over the map in BW. Defenders advantage is the reason for why that happens in BW because you don't always need your whole army in position to stop a push. The defenders advantage in BW is based on 2 important factors: highground advantage and unit pathing. You see what happened in SC2 and you say you don't like SC2. I personally don't like SC2 because there aren't battles all over the map all the time and I think it's not too far fetched to say it's one of your reasons as well. Goons pathing have nothing to do with defenders advantage, its always disadvantage. Uh...your point doesnt refute his. It can be true that goon pathing is always a net negative for the protoss player (mental stress and pragmatic ability to kill things) while also having an impact in favour of the defender. Goon pathing does amplify defenders advantage when goons try to run/attack up hill. Period. If you seriously think otherwise, I might suggest theres a reason your stuck on the lower end of iccup ranks. nice post, interesting thought on the matter. But the "if you don't agree, you suck" comment at the end was really not necessary, was it?
It wasn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
