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On September 15 2010 02:14 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 23:23 hypercube wrote:
I'm not sure what it was but something must have tipped off Flash in game 1 about the burrowed lings. If Jaedong could have created the exact same situation for Flash as in a normal game Flash probably would have moved out earlier to force sunkens, lost a group of MnM and would have been behind. I'm not sure wth you mean by "normal game" :O nothing from outside the booth tipped flash if that's what you mean. Any player would have known that it wasn't safe to move out before flash actually did. Flash went 1rax CC and then +1. He scouted JD 3hatch play but I think he saw only four lings, then he saw the speed upgrade. Who upgrades speed for four lings? Flash didn't have shells ready so he couldn't move out when the mutas were already morphing. He is not stupid so he didn't move out becouse that group could have been killed with ling+muta even without burrow. if you mean why he didnt move out before mutas, then the reason would be that he had way too few marines to both defend his base and to survive from ling flank.
Nah, I meant that he saw less lings than "usual" so he didn't move out in a situation where might have done otherwise. Maybe, it's not a good example as he wasn't going to move out before mutas anyway.
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On September 15 2010 02:51 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 02:14 Piste wrote:On September 14 2010 23:23 hypercube wrote:
I'm not sure what it was but something must have tipped off Flash in game 1 about the burrowed lings. If Jaedong could have created the exact same situation for Flash as in a normal game Flash probably would have moved out earlier to force sunkens, lost a group of MnM and would have been behind. I'm not sure wth you mean by "normal game" :O nothing from outside the booth tipped flash if that's what you mean. Any player would have known that it wasn't safe to move out before flash actually did. Flash went 1rax CC and then +1. He scouted JD 3hatch play but I think he saw only four lings, then he saw the speed upgrade. Who upgrades speed for four lings? Flash didn't have shells ready so he couldn't move out when the mutas were already morphing. He is not stupid so he didn't move out becouse that group could have been killed with ling+muta even without burrow. if you mean why he didnt move out before mutas, then the reason would be that he had way too few marines to both defend his base and to survive from ling flank. Nah, I meant that he saw less lings than "usual" so he didn't move out in a situation where might have done otherwise. Maybe, it's not a good example as he wasn't going to move out before mutas anyway.
well, he saw four lings, but he also saw the speed. he couldn't take the risk that there would be more lings 
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oov was much more "invincible" at his prime
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flash is, without a doubt, the best player in the world
All one has to do is watch the two finals from this season to see how much he outclasses Jaedong.
That said, he isn't invincible, because no one can win every game, or even every series.
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On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Edit- Wow, this is a lot of feedback, but I feel my title is unrepresentative of my actual point which is: I feel Jaedong is not as out of it as a lot of people think him to be now that Flash is bonjwa. I feel that a huge combo of luck and pre-prepared builds, in addition to map advantages, is giving Flash a lot more hype than he deserves. Maybe I am wrong, and I will not deny Flash's starsense and general play have been improving, but I feel that in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash.
still think you missed what flash did in most games, and considering it map advantage. In most of his straight up games he outright beat JD. Look at the recent game on fighting spirit. He denied 3rd with only a few mistakes, never let JD expand almost ever.
I wouldn't take the maps as the reason why Flash has won the past few seasons, but more attribute it to that Flash did not allow JD to gain any ground he didn't earn. None of the traditional JvT double expands or anything of the sort, Flash on dreamliner did not allow at all for JD to do so even if he bunker rushed after scouting 12 hatch. Flash's map scouting and awareness has been way beyond every progamer for the past 6 seasons. Nothing has surprised him, (albeit a few 4pools lol) and he has stopped JD's traditional vT to change.
I think it's very safe to say in the last 6 finals, Flash has easily had the edge, and is utilizing it to the fullest extent. If you don't count NATE then it makes a lot more sense looking at the big picture. A loss to effort matters but isn't weighted as much as people might think in the JD vs Flash debate.
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On September 15 2010 03:28 mdb wrote:
oov was much more "invincible" at his prime
only against zerg, and nada.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On September 15 2010 03:28 mdb wrote:
oov was much more "invincible" at his prime
Even oov couldnt go 3 consecutive dual starleague finals and win both the MSL and OSL in the same season. There were periods of time when Flash had over 90% winratio and destroyed anyone put in front of him that's why he got the name Terminator.
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Both EffOrt and Snow used a similar build.. fake all in then double expand 
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On September 15 2010 04:00 Zeridian wrote:
In most of his straight up games he outright beat JD. Look at the recent game on fighting spirit. He denied 3rd with only a few mistakes, never let JD expand almost ever.
I assume you mean on Eye of the Storm? Fighting Spirit was in the MSL, EotS in OSL. Looking at TLPD it's been a while since Flash beat JD on Fighting Spirit anyway.
JD lost that game the instant he researched burrow and made those lings. That's 100/100 for burrow plus a lot of not-made-drones that put him in a hole that Flash is never going to let him recover from. His burrow trick had no timing window against Flash's build like others have said. Unburrowing and losing all the lings for almost nothing just sealed the deal and the rest of the game was just Flash not letting JD back into the game. (Sure, losing the defiler at the 3rd with no swarm cast was bad, but I think that just sped up the game more than anything).
If you go through the last 4 finals they met (NATE MSL till Air OSL s2, not counting WCG), they played "standard" 1 rax FE vs 12 hatch 11 pool all of once. JD won that game, on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL.
In nearly every game in the past 4 finals they've played, the player with the better opening strategy won. JD and Flash don't seem very far apart in-game to me, particularly if they "agree" to play a pretty standard game. It's just that Flash has been doing stuff JD isn't ready for much more often than JD has the upper hand.
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On September 15 2010 04:20 crate wrote:
If you go through the last 4 finals they met (NATE MSL till Air OSL s2, not counting WCG), they played "standard" 1 rax FE vs 12 hatch 11 pool all of once. JD won that game, on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL.
In nearly every game in the past 4 finals they've played, the player with the better opening strategy won.
So its flash's fault that he stared going 14cc after scout if he sees dong 12 hatch? jd knows if he 12 hatches on 2 player maps, flash will scout and respond with 14cc most of the time.
Your problem is that you don't accept that as a valid ("standard") opening, even though its the best thing to do when scouting 12 hatch on 2 player maps. See hatch -> 14cc, pool -> 1/2 rax to wall off.
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Nahhhh. I can't wait for some unknown protoss to be our next bisu and start putting the stamp on both flash and jaedong O_O;;
But curently Flash is a beast.
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How did I end up in this thread lol
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On September 15 2010 04:27 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 04:20 crate wrote:
If you go through the last 4 finals they met (NATE MSL till Air OSL s2, not counting WCG), they played "standard" 1 rax FE vs 12 hatch 11 pool all of once. JD won that game, on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL.
In nearly every game in the past 4 finals they've played, the player with the better opening strategy won. So its flash's fault that he stared going 14cc after scout if he sees dong 12 hatch? jd knows if he 12 hatches on 2 player maps, flash will scout and respond with 14cc most of the time. Your problem is that you don't accept that as a valid ("standard") opening, even though its the best thing to do when scouting 12 hatch on 2 player maps. See hatch -> 14cc, pool -> 1/2 rax to wall off.
You are reading my post wrong.
Flash is dominating, this is no fluke, he is doing the right thing, and I am amazed at how easy his excellent strategies and preparation make it look. I am saying that his play against JD is not "standard" and that in "standard" games they are very close. But Flash is much much better right now because he's forcing the game to not go to that point, and JD is not reading Flash well enough to regain equilibrium.
I was responding to a poster who (as I interpret it anyway) said Flash was better than JD in "standard" games when I do not see evidence supporting that point.
I mean, how many other players out there manage to so thoroughly dominate JD strategically in a best-of-5? I admit I don't watch that much BW, but the last time I remember someone else so obviously out-thinking JD was Calm in an MSL semi quite some time ago.
edit: To be absolutely clear: I am in no way trying to downplay Flash's well-deserved victories over JD. I think they are largely a product of his strategies (as was JD's victory in NATE). The two players seem very close in straight-up-by-the-book-standard games like the game on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL. But Flash's superior strategies mean he's the one who won the past three times they met in a final, and that is a pretty big accomplishment against anyone, much less one of the most mechanically solid and mentally resilient progamers of all time, who's hardly lacking strategically himself.
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On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote:
...but I feel that in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash.
I dont understand this kind of mentality. I'm not sure I agree with the premise at all (flash regularly overcomes B.O. disadvantages in all matchups) but for the sake of argument...
Let's pretend flash's success versus jaedong can be completely attributed to his build orders (the 14ccs, the 5 raxs, etc). Let's also pretend that in a 1rax FE vs. 12Hatch game flash would lose more to jaedong than he would win. Then why would he ever go 1 rax FE? If he knows he's disadvantaged in that kind of game, why would he play it? Starcraft isnt about who can play the most "standard" build orders the best, its about who can win using whatever (non-hack) tools available to them.
Also, im glad there havent been many 1rax FE vs. 12Hatch games between them recently. These last few LSRs have been so exciting because of the varied play they've both been showing.
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so, you must 1rax cc vs 12 hatch 11pool and win to be a better player? since when if I may ask? :O
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@ crate, yeah I was wrong but at this point, it's rare to see JD even play standard against flash.
3hatch before pool, 12 hatch getting bunker rushed, 4pool twice (LOL). I mean if he chooses to spend money on burrowed lings that flash doesn't really fall for, I don't really know what to go off of. Honestly, not a lot to go off of.
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On September 15 2010 04:55 crate wrote:
edit: To be absolutely clear: I am in no way trying to downplay Flash's well-deserved victories over JD. I think they are largely a product of his strategies (as was JD's victory in NATE). The two players seem very close in straight-up-by-the-book-standard games like the game on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL. But Flash's superior strategies mean he's the one who won the past three times they met in a final, and that is a pretty big accomplishment against anyone, much less one of the most mechanically solid and mentally resilient progamers of all time, who's hardly lacking strategically himself.
For me that's the most accurate summary you can get. In NATE, we where amazed how well Jaedong read Flash and got favourable openings on at least 3 out of 4 maps. We were talking about Jaedongs superior mindgames and superior preparation which makes him the best Bo5 player of all time.
Flash managed to turn that around completely in the last three finals. He got away with 6 out of 7 14CCs, and when Jaedong finally wanted to put an end to this, both his 4 pools put him at a BO-disadvantage, only winning one game because FlaSh screwed up (as he said in his winner interview). On top of that, in the very last game of these three finals he pulls out a 5rax which is of comparable genius like his 7rax on HBR.
This makes him the better player now (and of course during the last year). He now dominates an area which we thought was Jaedongs main advantage in BoX-play. He catched up and surpassed him. Combined with his godly macro, unexplainable game sense and only slightly worse mechanics (compared to JD in this case) it makes him just plain better.
In a completely standard game setting, they would probably go 500:500 vs each other in 1000 games. But since their series are not defined by standard play right now, this doesn't really matter. It just shows that the gap between those two can be closed if Jaedong finds holes in Flashs play, like EffOrt does from time to time.
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On September 15 2010 05:24 Malinor wrote:
In a completely standard game setting, they would probably go 500:500 vs each other in 1000 games.
I don't believe this at all. I think Flash has been the superior player in so called 'standard' play - his ability to read the game, and reinforce his units (something that other players do comparatively poorly) makes him a very very difficult person to play against. Game 1 OSL and Game 3 MSL show how potent his mid-game is, and we all know what he can do if it gets to the late game.
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EPT
