Edit- Wow, this is a lot of feedback, but I feel my title is unrepresentative of my actual point which is: I feel Jaedong is not as out of it as a lot of people think him to be now that Flash is bonjwa. I feel that a huge combo of luck and pre-prepared builds, in addition to map advantages, is giving Flash a lot more hype than he deserves. Maybe I am wrong, and I will not deny Flash's starsense and general play have been improving, but I feel that in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash.
At this point, a lot of people will think I am lying when I say I am a Flash/Terran fan, but all I can say is I love Flash, but having Flash being undisputedly better than Jaedong takes a lot out of SC for me XD. (I also feel really bad for OZ fans since KT have basically won everything and they dont have much to go on... personally I am KT fan, but its always to see a healthy debate. -end Edit.
I'd just like to start this by saying I've been lurking at TL for ~2-3 years now, but this is my first topic. I would also like to say that I have and always will be a Terran Fan, and was a huge Flash fan since I saw his face (he happens to look just like a good friend of mine at school). I've hated Jaedong for god knows how long, and have posted multiple rage comments about dark swarm/ultra imba after watching him.
I have always feared FvJ finals as Jaedong would come out with his badass mechenics and rip Flash apart, but recently, Flash has beaten Jaedong in 3 finals and everyone is claiming Flash is bonjwa (a title I am not gonna discuss). However, I always did have an eerie feeling, despite these recent victories, that should Flash and Jaedong play a 12 hatch/12 pool vs 1 rax CC into standard muta play on a completely balanced map, Jaedong will win. I'm not sure if this is just a lingering omen from the past, or if its still me who thinks Jaedong's unit-by-unit mechanics are stronger. For reference to why I feel this way, let me analyze some of their recent games:
Korean Air OSL
Flight Dreamliner - Jaedong lost this game I feel because 1. Flash rushed, throwing off his timings, 2. the whole abusable point of the map was short air distance (ie Muta Harass). By refusing to do Muta Harass, I felt Jaedong failed to take advantage of the map (The drops were frankly dumb... dropping lurkers into a terran base next to a bunch of buildings with tanks covering them won't do jack).
On this game, I would like to note Flash's failed attempts to get either one of his marines into the bunker.
Grand Line - Jaedong 4 pools, but I mean once again, Flash can't get the marine in the bunker.
Polaris Rhapsody - When Flash goes with his 8 marines, and Jaedong has 2 lings, Flash refuses to run or even scout the ramp into instant victory. Instead, Flash runs his marines around the natural aimlessly and ends up poking the hatchery before losing all of them.
Eye of the Storm - Once again, this game was by no means standard; Jaedong gets defilers into his third seconds too late, and fails to do any muta harass as he babysits his burrowed lings... This entire series, I feel that Jaedong fails to utilize what he is best at -muta harass, aka pure mechanics.
Bigfile MSL
Polaris Rhapsody (Game 5) - Jaedong as one of the TL writers said, had a perfect counter-mech build planned, but Flash fooled him with a sudden 4-rax bio rush. I felt that this frankly was in part to the map imbalance forcing Jaedong into a certain build, but I might be wrong.
Triathalon - Flash "gifts' a game to JD, placing a CC after scouting an early pool... once again his mechanics fails him as he loses.
Fighting Spirit - This was one of the very very FEW games where I felt it was truly standard... and Flash lost. This was one of the games where I felt Flash didn't have a pre-prepared plan (he says so in his interview), and loses the game.
I'm not going to look into any more games for fear of boring you guys, but I feel that Flash has been on this streak in lage part due to (1)map imbalances (2)pre-prepared 1-time-use specialized builds (3) a decent amount of luck (Ie not getting the builds scouted).
After this post, I know its hard to believe, but I AM a Flash fan, but I feel bad for the JD fans out there, and personally believe that despite all the Bonjwa talk, Jaedong is by no means out of the picture. If some more balanced maps were introduced, and Jaedong wipes these memories from his brain, he has all the tools he needs to compete head to head with Flash.
Once again, sorry for the long post, but please tell me whether Flash has really reached an untouchable state or has this just been a long run of luck and pre-prepped specialized builds?
Flash isn't INVINCIBLE - Starcraft is too variable a game for anyone to win everything forever. What he is is the best progamer. He's not going to win every bo5 much less every bo3 much less every game - maybe fantasy picks a different build and wins their recent series - but he ought to have the highest winrate out of all progamers over a long period of time.
Yes, he is. Flash would've been bonjwa a long time ago if it weren't for the existence of Jaedong, and similarly Jaedong would have been bonjwa (imo) if not for the existence of Flash. They are so far ahead of the competition at this point, and now Flash has Jaedong's number. I don't think it matters what opening they each go for, especially given Flash's play in the last game of the finals. He just completely shut JD down and that's what he's been doing in their mid-late games lately.
He knows how he plays and he knows how to shut it down. I don't think Jaedong has had more than 2 successfully saturated bases vs Flash in any of the recent games and that's what (I believe) messes him up.
FWIW I'm a Jaedong fan, but it's clear even to me that Flash has his number right now, and I would agree that Flash is bonjwa.
Thank you for articulating how I've been feeling with all the JvF finals! There really havent been that many standard games with these two players in a grand finals. (unless 14cc v 12hatch is standard?TT)
On September 14 2010 09:39 andeh wrote: Thank you for articulating how I've been feeling with all the JvF finals! There really havent been that many standard games with these two players in a grand finals. (unless 14cc v 12hatch is standard?TT)
There's no such thing as invincible in SC. But Flash is a small step above JD, a medium step above Fantasy, and a huge step above everyone else. That's as good as it gets in BW.
Even though Flash has been on a roll in finals recently with Jaedong, it's never a series of one sided games. The two are always entertaining to watch, and it's not all about one or the other. I've been watching Brood War for a long time, and I have to say this is the most even, healthy, entertaining match up of any of the top players in the game's history.
Although I wish there was also a Protoss on their level to make it a cool trifecta of awesome
Well this is what I feel of Flash's play. If he fail at cheesing or do a timing push, he'll go just like sitting there squeezing as much unit as he possibly can to defend with the bases and then when the opponents tries to break the defence, he'll just defend to the best of his ability (the mass turrets guyz vs ZerO guys?) and if he feel that the opponents have gotten tired or like is only focussing on attacking he'll do a a multiple front attack (the game vs Kal where Kal lost like 3 expo at the same time?) to win. What Jaedong is doing is going for TOO straight up play or shall I say predictable play against Flash, yeah he did 4-pool against Flash but Flash also knew it was coming (Come on, of course Flash would think that Jaedong will try to do some aggressive build). If JD and Flash plays at the absolute top level, I feel that Jaedong will take that one (even Flash said that JD is better at raw talent). What you need if someone who is able to "fake" flash like Effort did versus Flash at the MSL and Snow did at PL (or was it WL?). When EVERYONE in the business fear you, of course you have a massive advantage over them. This is what I call momentum, even the best players in the world would lose if his confidence is shattered.
Flash is invincible in the current era, on the current battlefields (maps).
We will see if he would maintain this streak in the next season (probably, since the maps for the next season will still follow the same format as the last 2 seasons) they can add some features to favor Zerg but it won't matter because his turtle style (I mean no disrespect, it's a good and valid style) is so perfect that attacking him is impossible in a ground-based map.
They really need to add one air-based map to balance out the odds (and to give Protoss a super edge ^^, just look at the 02-03 years with island maps in the pool Protoss just dominated lol).
Off-season is when things change (like this last one, Bisu's slump, Flash's godmode), so most likely we'll see a shift in the power structure when games start again. I'm gunning for Flash to hit a massive slump
On September 14 2010 09:50 Xiphos wrote: Well this is what I feel of Flash's play. If he fail at cheesing or do a timing push, he'll go just like sitting there squeezing as much unit as he possibly can to defend with the bases and then when the opponents tries to break the defence, he'll just defend to the best of his ability (the mass turrets guyz vs ZerO guys?) and if he feel that the opponents have gotten tired or like is only focussing on attacking he'll do a a multiple front attack (the game vs Kal where Kal lost like 3 expo at the same time?) to win. What Jaedong is doing is going for TOO straight up play or shall I say predictable play against Flash, yeah he did 4-pool against Flash but Flash also knew it was coming (Come on, of course Flash would think that Jaedong will try to do some aggressive build). If JD and Flash plays at the absolute top level, I feel that Jaedong will take that one (even Flash said that JD is better at raw talent). What you need if someone who is able to "fake" flash like Effort did versus Flash at the MSL and Snow did at PL (or was it WL?). When EVERYONE in the business fear you, of course you have a massive advantage over them. This is what I call momentum, even the best players in the world would lose if his confidence is shattered.
On September 14 2010 10:12 ArvickHero wrote: Off-season is when things change (like this last one, Bisu's slump, Flash's godmode), so most likely we'll see a shift in the power structure when games start again. I'm gunning for Flash to hit a massive slump
It would seem that once someone arrives at the peak, in this case bonjwa status, they would have nowhere else to go but down. Though, I don't believe Flash will hit a major slump just yet. He's still quite young and his mental fortitude over the past several months has been nothing but spectacular.
Now that he has time to finally rest and relax, once we get back into the thick of things when Proleague rolls around, he'll just get back into his rhythm. You can't really say the same for Jaedong though. Flash has his number now, and I think Jaedong will become even more desperate to beat him.
I would say that Flash and Jaedong are about even in mechanics but I think that Flash is ahead of Jaedong right now because he has been switching it up from his usual 14 cc and Flash is using mind games alot better than Jaedong is currently.
On September 14 2010 10:24 manicsquare wrote: I would say that Flash and Jaedong are about even in mechanics but I think that Flash is ahead of Jaedong right now because he has been switching it up from his usual 14 cc and Flash is using mind games alot better than Jaedong is currently.
On September 14 2010 10:24 manicsquare wrote: I would say that Flash and Jaedong are about even in mechanics but I think that Flash is ahead of Jaedong right now because he has been switching it up from his usual 14 cc and Flash is using mind games alot better than Jaedong is currently.
Basically this. JD's mechanics are definitely right up there, but Flash has got a definite edge over JD right now because his game sense is a lot better and he's better at the mindgames most of the time.
JD still has the potential to beat Flash, no doubt about that. I mean, JD is one of the greatest players of all time. But he'll have to improve his mental game against Flash to have a chance.
There is no such thing as being ''invincible'' in SC, it is not impossible to beat him. There is however no way anyone can possibly deny that right now he is above everyone else (including JD) in a way that's pretty much unprecedented. SC isn't only about pure mechanical skill, things like mindgames are very important. JD fans should know this better than most people since that's one of the biggest reasons to why JD's one of the best of all time. And I really do not understand how some people try to argue that pre-planning map specific strategies somehow diminishes the awesomeness of the results.
if starcraft were purely mechanical, i wouldnt watch it, and yes i do believe he has a far edge from jaedong thou jae fans are to stubborn to see it. no one ever talks about game 4 on OSL, when he was continously killing jaes expos and pressuring a lot, despite being dropped by lurkers and shit, you may as well say that other terran can execute that, well no, no terran can execute that without loosing other aspects of the game as well as Flash is prepared to, and we are talking about the best zerg ever not some random zerg trying to built expansions while dropping and containing, which you should know jae excels at.
you see all of the games jae has won against flash, lets see, hanna daetoo, 3- oed , big file, he won game 4 ONLY thanks to flashs stupid mistakes , G3 was the only really deserved by him. OSL , only won by 4 pooling and thats it and tryed another are you serious? two 4 pooling? is this a joke? cant you win playing normal?, cant you see it? i mean are you that blind?.
and then jae fans come saying how 14 CC its so imba after bigfile and hanna daetoo, well gets what he changed it , he didnt do even one 14 CC, thou it will be and autoloose thanks to the pathetic 4 pooling of jae, i mean everybody were angry when flash cheesed and called him cheeser terran, well guess what i am angry about jaedong, 4 pooling? you trully doesnt stand a chance against flash, i mean one is ok but two?, way too desperate
And every jae fan kept saying how awesome he was in mindgames so that other players couldnt match him in a BO5 , well flash has now and now you say its due to luck and map imbalance. even jaedong dont pay attention to these claims , when he loose he says simply it was my fault, jae fan should do the same considering jae hasnt win against flash mech just yet.
I think the only thing that can beat Flash at this point is himself. He's getting to the point where he's achieving all his goals and sooner or later he'll lose that passion to be number 1. Then the next generation will begin.
Considering though that he fought jaedong more times this year in several finals, he might've been able to pick something up that can go against Jaedong. Hell, for all we know, there might be something in the games that we can't see that could be "Jaedong specific" and destroy him.
On the other hand, he's been nothing less then being extremely solid, if not nothing less then excellence.
Personally, my hopes were on Jaedong.
But a win's a win and earning himself a golden mouse does mean something.
No, nobody is invincible. Sooner or later, everyone retires or gets sloppy enough that they get surpassed. This is certainly his day in the sun though, and now begins the race to see who can topple him.
He's not invincible. It would take someone with mechanics as good as Flash and able to match him in mind games and game sense to beat him consistently, though, so I'll be betting on him for the foreseeable future. I think Jaedong has the mechanics, but is behind on the other two. Fantasy seemed to be able to compete in mind games / game sense during the MSL semifinals, too.
I can't think of others who feel like they might have the potential, though.
If Bisu were to recover his old sense at least (note: not surpass) and improve his decision making he would stand a chance. Stork also if he improved his multitasking a bit.
In Starcraft, skill isn't everything. Luck still plays a very important factor. If you're a Terran just think of the number of times you scouted a Protoss last and sees that he went for a 12Nexus, even though you have say, the perfect bunker rush that you could have used if you scouted him first or second.
I think that to beat Flash, you just need a build order advantage, and seriously abuse that whenever you get that chance. What also makes Flash difficult to beat is that although he's so well-known for his 2base 2Armory push, he still mixes it up with bunker rushes, proxy raxes, etc., thereby making him basically unpredictable.
On September 14 2010 11:31 Animostas wrote: What also makes Flash difficult to beat is that although he's so well-known for his 2base 2Armory push, he still mixes it up with bunker rushes, proxy raxes, etc., thereby making him basically unpredictable.
MSL/OSL finals aside, Flash is actually one of the most predictable progamers around. Flash has been known to pick an opening he likes and perfect it, and still people have issues dealing with him.
Flash's top weakness is his earlygame. You gamble a cheesy opening, you might catch him offguard. Not many people can macro up against him.
yes every player will have their peak and fade away. but in Flash's case, I think he will fade much later than other big names he will stay more on his peak place.
I don't see jaedong coming back to dominate Flash for a whole year, as he did in 09 and as Flash has in 2010. Jaedong is significantly older than Flash (at least as far as sc is concerned). I think he'll be around till the end, playing top games and continuing his own dominance, but I think he's past that young peak where he can smash everybody. And frankly, Flash isn't. He's still very young, his mechanics are superb and he has the mental stamina to boot. He practices his heart out, he is resilient, unshakable on the big stage, and he is ultra intelligent. If Jaedong was the same age, I'd still say it was anyone's game.
But the only way I see Flash dipping now is by his own choice. If he wants to remain at number 1, I think it'll be nigh impossible to shake him from that place. If he switched to sc2 or wanted to retire, then sure. But I doubt he'd do either till he'd squeezed every last bit out of sc:bw and I don't see him leaving before anyone else to sc2.
No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote: Fighting Spirit - This was one of the very very FEW games where I felt it was truly standard... and Flash lost. This was one of the games where I felt Flash didn't have a pre-prepared plan (he says so in his interview), and loses the game.
He lost that game because he didn't scout bottom right going up in a situation where he had map control. While it is a mistake, I don't think it's necessarily indicative that his overall micro/macro/multitask/sense is worse than Jaedong's.
I'm not saying that Flash is better in textbook standard games, but I think it's pretty close and that one game is a small sample size.
On September 14 2010 12:34 iSiN wrote: No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
Their last 3 finals are 3-0 flash. And no, the WCG Korea aren't more important to them than WCG Grand Finals. The WCG korea was meaningless for 1st/2nd place (they both even said as much), since they both go anyway. It was 3rd and 4th place that really mattered which is why it occured afterwards. In the WCG grand finals, they will both strive to win as their country's representatives.
Dude, WCG was completely meaningless since both were already qualifiied for the Grand Final.
''After advancing to the finals yesterday, I had already earned the right to represent Korea at the WCG Grand Finals, so to tell the truth I actually didn’t care too much whether I won or lost today.''
JD himself said it straight out. Compare that to him saying he was going to practise as if his life depended on it for the OSL final. And Flash said he pretty much didn't practise at all. So they are 3-0 in the last BoX encounters that mattered.
On September 14 2010 12:34 iSiN wrote: No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
Er no it's not more important than the WCG Grand Final, it determines nothing in the WCG (since both players go to LA regardless) and there is no prize money at stake.
Also if you recall in the last 4 meetings it's 1-3 for Flash, and over the course of those 4 meetings the record was 4-11 for Flash...
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
[citation needed]
There isn't anything to get out of winning WCG Korea. The only thing I am certain that they care about is making sure that Korea get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and they're even willing to purposely throw games to adjust the brackets.
Flash didn't seem particularly bothered losing the third game of WCG. He seemed to find it quite amusing, even took the effort to type a funny message to Jaedong.
On September 14 2010 12:34 iSiN wrote: No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
Seriously, people who keep trying to argue for Jaedong being a co-bonjwa right now are just making themselves sound stupid. Remember that temp ban handed out to Lightwip a few days ago? I'm beginning to think TL should just temp ban all of the people who keep arguing that Flash and JD are still co-bonjwas right now. Yeah, they're just dragging out the debate, painfully and slowly...
On September 14 2010 09:43 nttea wrote: Not invincible! i still feel Jaedong is the better player but we will see -.-
Agreed. Plus JD play is more fun to watch for me.
hahaha this is a bit absurd, considering flash has beaten jaedong in last three finals. "they didn't play standard games" is a ridiculous reasoning, because starcraft is not just about making buildings and units. especially in a series where both players prepare for a long time. it's adaptability, game sense, creativity, mind game, and a ton of other factors.
honestly, if you had to lay down 100K dollars on who would win, I'd imagine over 90% people would pick flash at this point. for me, what separates him from jaedong is his game sense. yes jaedong's is great as well but nobody is on flash's level. commentators talked about this too. he reads his opponents too damn well and his decisions are simply impeccable most of the time. his macro is clearly unbelievable but he mixes up his plays depending on his guts. these qualities, along with many other things, make him the greatest starcraft player ever.
On September 14 2010 11:31 Animostas wrote: In Starcraft, skill isn't everything. Luck still plays a very important factor. If you're a Terran just think of the number of times you scouted a Protoss last and sees that he went for a 12Nexus, even though you have say, the perfect bunker rush that you could have used if you scouted him first or second.
I think that to beat Flash, you just need a build order advantage, and seriously abuse that whenever you get that chance. What also makes Flash difficult to beat is that although he's so well-known for his 2base 2Armory push, he still mixes it up with bunker rushes, proxy raxes, etc., thereby making him basically unpredictable.
2 base 2 armory push is so 3 years ago
Anyways, to answer your question. NO, Flash is not invincible. There is no such thing as an invincible player in starcraft. He is just right now the BEST PLAYER in the world and is a favorite against anyone.
Invincible would mean 100% winrate but even still he only has around 85% win rate which is amazing but not invincible. But I guess you can say that he is invincible in a box right now.
On September 14 2010 09:43 nttea wrote: Not invincible! i still feel Jaedong is the better player but we will see -.-
Agreed. Plus JD play is more fun to watch for me.
hahaha this is a bit absurd, considering flash has beaten jaedong in last three finals. "they didn't play standard games" is a ridiculous reasoning, because starcraft is not just about making buildings and units. especially in a series where both players prepare for a long time. it's adaptability, game sense, creativity, mind game, and a ton of other factors.
honestly, if you had to lay down 100K dollars on who would win, I'd imagine over 90% people would pick flash at this point. for me, what separates him from jaedong is his game sense. yes jaedong's is great as well but nobody is on flash's level. commentators talked about this too. he reads his opponents too damn well and his decisions are simply impeccable most of the time. his macro is clearly unbelievable but he mixes up his plays depending on his guts. these qualities, along with many other things, make him the greatest starcraft player ever.
Remember that game against Calm I think where he didn't even scout his opponent but still built bunkers against a lurker all-in. That is just how imba Flash's game sense is. :X
On September 14 2010 12:49 l0st_romantic wrote: Er no it's not more important than the WCG Grand Final, it determines nothing in the WCG (since both players go to LA regardless) and there is no prize money at stake.
On September 14 2010 12:52 Womwomwom wrote: There isn't anything to get out of winning WCG Korea.
I do have to correct you guys there, there is prize money involved but its very low considering.
1st place in WCG Korea is 5M₩ (~$4,300) 2nd place iirc is 3M₩ (~$2,600) 3rd place is 1M₩ (~$860).
So the difference in the WCG Korea 1st/2nd place is only about $1,700 and considering these guys' saleries and actual league winnings, I don't think the prize pool really motivated either of them.
FLASH WILL NOT BE STOPPED. One thing to consider about players who've dominated in the past (Iloveoov, Savior, Boxer, etc) is that they all did it when they were around 20. Flash only just turned 18 a couple months ago. There is still a ton more that he can do.
On September 14 2010 13:01 Nemesis wrote: Remember that game against Calm I think where he didn't even scout his opponent but still built bunkers against a lurker all-in. That is just how imba Flash's game sense is. :X
I was thinking about that specific game just hours ago. How the fuck did he know that lurkers were incoming in that game?
Seriously, sometimes I wonder if Flash has discovered some way of ''ear-hacking'' or similar. It's just ridiculous how smart he is.
I'd say the closeness of their standard games indicates that they are still really close in skill level. I always thought that JD was ahead of flash in the mind games too, before the Hana Daetoo MSL that is.
maybe im just too blinded by fanboyism but I kinda think the maps have had a lot to do with it (it always meant that the onus was on Jaedong to come up with some build to win on the map while flash had way more options and completely dictated almost every map). With maps like triathalon, odd-eye, polaris rhapsody, and grand line all being played I feel like flash had it way too easy picking builds for each series compared to JD.
the way I see it, JD still convincingly crushed flash on fighting spirit and in the WCG. flash definitely out-mind gamed JD in the past month, but consistently JD has ALWAYS found a way to get back on top (flash once beat JD in the mind games back in 08 but then JD came back on top before falling again recently) mentally. I can't wait for the next season. no one holds a grudge better than Jaedong, just ask Tyson lol
Except this time JD has been out-witted (and out-played) in 3 Bo5's in a row by the same player, something which has never happened before. It's gonna be hard for him to come back on top, I think.
On September 14 2010 10:24 LuigiNMario wrote: Flash never went on a serious slump before did he?
I think he went on a "serious" slump when he was 14 ccing every game and everyone figured him out and demolished him. That's the only time i can think of when he went on a "serious" slump.
Depends on how you define ''serious''. He didn't make a single Starleague final for almost 2 years, but he was pretty much permanently in the Top 3 in ELO, always maintained a sick winrate and was never back in any offline preliminaries (like even JD has been).
On September 14 2010 14:06 Holgerius wrote: Depends on how you define ''serious''. He didn't make a single Starleague final for almost 2 years, but he was pretty much permanently in the Top 3 in ELO, always maintained a sick winrate and was never back in any offline preliminaries (like even JD has been).
he was actually out of top 5 for a while if i remember correctly (summer 09 was pretty much his low point). back when leta and fantasy were doing much better than him in leagues.
The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
On September 14 2010 14:23 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
flash wasn't the one who used a strategy that as you pointed out can be shut down by scouting.
On September 14 2010 14:23 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
This series was 3-1, not 3-2, so no it didn't come down to that. But a series that was 2-2 and did come to that was Stork skipping a 2nd cannon which even allowed dong to make it to the finals to begin with. The reason netizens accepted flash as bonjwa is because he has shown himself to dominate indisputably. This past year he has dominated dong 3-0 in bo5's so you can't blame 1 game for all of that, and made 3 back to back dual finals (winning 4). He's also dominated proleague and WL. This isn't a case of "oh he won 1 game by lucky scouting = bonjwa".
Face it, there will always be the person that says "you know, I'm not quite convinced yet... lets see if he can win the next league as well" (as was the case pretty much this entire year).
On September 14 2010 14:23 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
Yeah, that's why. Nothing to do with him having the best year ever or anything.
On September 14 2010 14:23 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
I can't decide whether I find this post funny or just plain irritating. I'm kinda leaning towards irritating.
Flash is Very Solid , Not all Eye catching or innovative play like Boxer , not having Godlike Macro like Nada , but being excellent in Both Macro and Micro .
His most Potent Weapon is his game sense , no matter what you do , Flash always has an answer or already knows your plans and is busy laying Down defenses.
There is no programmer more scary than a one that can Read and predict your moves like an open book.
On September 14 2010 14:23 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
Yeah, that's why. Nothing to do with him having the best year ever or anything.
Right, because if JD won the series 3-1 people would still be calling flash bonjwa...
On September 14 2010 14:23 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
This series was 3-1, not 3-2, so no it didn't come down to that. But a series that was 2-2 and did come to that was Stork skipping a 2nd cannon which even allowed dong to make it to the finals to begin with. The reason netizens accepted flash as bonjwa is because he has shown himself to dominate indisputably. This past year he has dominated dong 3-0 in bo5's so you can't blame 1 game for all of that, and made 3 back to back dual finals (winning 4). He's also dominated proleague and WL. This isn't a case of "oh he won 1 game by lucky scouting = bonjwa".
Face it, there will always be the person that says "you know, I'm not quite convinced yet... lets see if he can win the next league as well" (as was the case pretty much this entire year).
Yes, it did. How the previous games went affect how the later games play out. Really people, how many of you would call flash bonjwa before this series honestly? This was the make or break series that would determine (in most peoples eyes) weather or not flash deserved it or not. As was pointed out in the OP, a lot of the flash v jaedong games ARE non-standard for whatever reason.
I'm not denying flash bonjwa status. Its funny how quickly how many fanboys jump to the defense. But the truth is, the moment that clinched it, the moment that got him that status was the correct decision to scout east instead of south.
Its pretty much the same as the shot that turned jordan from a mediocre (not that flash is) collegate player into the GOAT. I'm drawing parallels, but then of course anything except for immediate worship means you are insulting a favorite player :-/
I dont think anyone claims that Flash is invincible so this thread seems kind of pointless. Also there is chance involved, but it would be ridiculous to claim that Flash has won 3 finals vs JD by chance alone. The odds of that being the chance are pretty pretty pretty slim.
On September 14 2010 14:23 dogabutila wrote: The funny thing is that this series came down to flash deciding to scout east or south in game 3. 50-50. Flash makes the right decision and people hail him as bonjwa.
Yeah, that's why. Nothing to do with him having the best year ever or anything.
Right, because if JD won the series 3-1 people would still be calling flash bonjwa...
Right, because if Flash loses game 3 he automatically loses a game 4 which he otherwise won to a player whom he just beat in two straight BO5's.
On September 14 2010 15:10 dogabutila wrote:Its pretty much the same as the shot that turned jordan from a mediocre (not that flash is) collegate player into the GOAT. I'm drawing parallels, but then of course anything except for immediate worship means you are insulting a favorite player :-/
Uh, to which shot are you referring? The shot he made against Georgetown? I hope this is a joke because Jordan isn't the GOAT because of the ball he played in college. He's the GOAT because there was no player before him and there never will be another player after him that has the same pure, unadulterated drive to defeat his opponents and assert his dominance.
The way I see it, BoxeR isn't the Emperor of Terran because he had cute Dropship micro. He's the Emperor of Terran because his passion and dedication to winning outstripped any of his opponents and drove him to dominate in a time when Terran was looked at as being a weaker race than Zerg or Protoss.
Similarly, I think these past two finals have demonstrated Flash's dedication and passion. I'd still describe Flash and Jaedong as "co-bonjwas," even though Jaedong lost, because Jaedong obviously has that same passion and dedication. It's like the Bird-Magic debate. You can't say which one is the greater player, even though Magic had two more NBA championships.
On September 14 2010 15:10 dogabutila wrote: Really people, how many of you would call flash bonjwa before this series honestly?
/me raises his hand.
And no, again I don't think that if JD won with his second cheese he would have taken the series for sure, I think claiming that "the series came down to that!" is a bit ridiculous as they would have still had another game to go, and it could have gone either way.
For me it was more about the 3 back to back dual finals, and the performance in PL and WL. It was this year as a whole that made him undisputed. Winning dual leagues (both vs JD) in the same round just happened to be the nail in the coffin. We'll see if JD can bring the pain next season and show that he can cut flash down to size. If JD comes back next season, takes flash out in a couple finals, their rivalry will once again be more or less deadlocked, but as for this year, Flash has pulled way ahead of everyone, JD included.
Flash beat Jaedong fair and square in 1st set and Jaedong felt so desperate that he had to resort to two 4pools...
BTW: Sea beat Jaedong on Dreamliner even when Jaedong was using mutas so if Sea did it then of course Flash could do it. Also Flash is the only player that beat Jaedong on Katrina so this must mean something.
In their last meetings Flash was always one step ahead of Jaedong. He beat him with standard play (SK terran), he beat him with cheese, he beat him with greedy macro (14cc), mech, timing pushes, all-in golliaths (lol)...So yeah there is nothing more for Flash to prove. The only excuse for Jaedongs fans are now the maps (Katrina, Zergliner remember).
He is Kira. If he writes your name in his deathnote, it's auto-GG. Dunno, in those series Flash won it seems to me more about out-witting your opponent in game plan than outplaying with game mechanics, macro, or micro only. It was almost like watching a Go match in a really fast pace.
Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all. Currently, NaDa is still probably greater overall, but Flash has so much time, he could become a Schumacher of BW and make the whole scene boring to level that people are only interested in the second place. I think he should, even if I'm not a fan of his (or Schumacher's).
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
On September 14 2010 16:19 TwoToneTerran wrote: Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
ultra + ling under swarm
not funny
And to all the people who has Flash is boring because he plays only 1 style, have you watched any Savior games? 3 hatch muta -> fast defiler...booooooooooooooooooooooring. Any Oov games? FE into macro bot -> boooooooooring. Any Boxer games? 80% of the time he does all-ins. Booooooooooring. At least Nada is had more variety, only he can be bonjwa seems like it.
Flash is pretty much invisible in TvZ if he's using Mech late game.... can't think of any possible way Z can avoid/counter/beat that (assuming its a slightly T-favoured map)
Of course he's not invincible. At the level these guys play at I think a slump is always just around the corner. It takes massive amounts of dedication and natural skill to avoid slipping. Even the best will succumb eventually, and in a sport as fickle as pro BW it can happen anytime.
The only real debate concerns the b-word, and this to me is already settled. No matter what happens from here, Flash is bonjwa. Nothing can take away his utter dominance this year, especially considering he basically manhandled the only other player who could lay any claim to the bonjwa title themselves.
I think in Jaedong's case, we need more data. To his fans, he is bonjwa already...but a definitive answer will come from how he does next year.
Flash is currently the best, but he's not invincible in the current playoff-type system. Effort and the two vT snipers Skyhigh and Snow have all showed strength against Flash. Effort is on a 4 win streak against him, and his OSL win was very convincing, overtaking a 0-2 deficit, despite having to restart a game where he was in the lead. This shows he's got the skills and mental strength to beat Flash. Skyhigh is 3-1 vs Flash, with 2 wins in a row, including a impressively flawless 50+ minute macro battle. It's too early to tell Snow's potential, but he's one of the most promising young players around, and I've never seen Flash get owned as hard as he did against Snow on Fighting Spirit.
On September 14 2010 16:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: But I'm sure you understood what I meant by style.
I fully understand what you mean and I haven't yet seen a pro mastering so many styles. But there are fans out there that expect different play styles that are not available to a terran player, at least not in their immediate first order. In second order of course there are a number of common categories (early all-in aggression, timing pushes, map splitting, defensive play, etc.). Some people enjoy the first order differences; there is nothing Flash can do to make them appreciate his play.
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
are you sure you're a Flash's fan? from what I've read from you, it seems you're Jaedong's fan--trying to point out Flash's weakness and trying to get people attention. I'm a Flash fan, not because of his recent performance, but ever since I watched his game against Bisu on Monty Hall. I've watched his 14cc failure to his recent successes; it was a great year to be a Flash's fan. Even though Flash is dominating right now, he's not invincible--no one is. The beauty about starcraft is that anyone can snipe anyone, however, when talking about Flash, he is the heavy favorite to win any given match-ups, even if his opponent is Jaedong.
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
LOL, Flash invincibility relies in his superb undestanding of every matchup, (TvZ.TvP,TvT), he understand them so well he can predict his enemies, and this is achieved by tons of hours of practice.
Flash can still be fooled, just remember his game against Snow at PL, where he did fake timing attack into double expand.
I for one, blame JDs "average" understading of ZvT by his lack of "quality" terran friends, he should get closer with fantasy and light, although i guess it will never happen with fantasy cause he cheesed him at PL final last year.
People complaining that Jaedong didn't make good enough builds or talking about mindgames, you realize he plays Zerg right? There's really a limited amount of options. People beforehand complained he wasn't aggressive enough, he does the bold move of 4pooling twice (don't think thats ever been done before) and people still complain. The 4pools went 1:1 and basically nullified the practice done on those maps for Flash so it was infact a pretty good move. Terran then has a lot more options after the early game in terms of various timing attacks while Zerg does not other than some extremely fragile all-in moves.
Wow, most biased writeup ever. It always amaze me how people cant understand that if Flash is so bad at skills then JD is even worse. You cant say one without another. SC is strategy game, not micro game. And with all you complains about timing pushes, specially prepared builds and exploitation of mind game you imply that strategy is not part of strategy game. I mean What? Flash is most round-around player, he doesn't posses superb micro but strong in all part of the game and have exceptional strategic play and map control. There are a lot of good mechanical players on current SC scene but a very few people with good strategic thinking. Thats why he can easily cover his weakness and exploit vulnerable points of other players. You call Flash lucky but I feel otherwise. With some luck he should have won all finals in 3-0 fashion. Don't write analytic if you can't be more-or-less objective, calm down first.
I really hope some big changes in the meta-game where Terran is involved will appear now. Flash is just so good, the other races have to think about new things that might become standard to fight against him. Particularly in PvT where Protoss is supposed to have more options.
The scary thing is he's still so young. If he was older we might have the hope that he would start to lose some of his skills but I think he has about another three years of being at his peak to go.
I think it's going to take someone playing really special to beat him in a best of now and deny him another two titles in the next season.
JD is getting older so I don't think we can look to him to come back against Flash now. I get the feeling that he has already peaked as all players eventually do.
Effort has moments of absolute brilliance against Flash and seems to really raise his game when they play but overall he's too inconsistent to get into the finals most of the time.
I can't see any other current player having a chance of winning a best of against him at the moment- OK Fantasy I guess is capable if he brings his AAA+ game and gets lucky.
The only real hope IMO is some new younger player who we haven't even heard of rising up, but that would most likely take a few seasons of development.
On September 14 2010 10:24 drewbie.root wrote: YES HE IS
NO HE ISNT. flash is just in the prime of his career just like jaedong was 2-3years ago. he is mortal, he will age and he will slow down. unless progamers can innovate a new strat against him, we will just have to wait and see how jaedong will get even with flash.
Flash is heads and shoulders above everyone else in this day and age. He isn't invincible, but it's hard to conceive anyone beating him consistently if even JD can't run with him.
I think Effort hinted in one of his interviews that there were ways to use Flash's game sense against him. The problem is that the players who could do this best, probably Effort, Stork, Leta, maybe Zero, are too far behind in some other areas to really beat him consistently.
I'm not sure what it was but something must have tipped off Flash in game 1 about the burrowed lings. If Jaedong could have created the exact same situation for Flash as in a normal game Flash probably would have moved out earlier to force sunkens, lost a group of MnM and would have been behind. In any case, I think the key is to negate Flash's game sense by understanding how he reaches his decisions and using that against him, while keeping up a high level of play otherwise.
Effort on beating Flash in the Bigfile MSL Ro32 -Your mind game was exceptionally strong, and you seem to be unusually confident against the (T)Flash, who has 100 dan vision. (T/N: probably means flash sees all aka hax) ▲ Recently I tried alot of different freestyle strategies, and I discovered alot of pretty good plays. In one particular, it doesn't matter how good (T)Flash's vision is, if I could act well, I could definitely fool him. And since my acting skill is better than flash's vision, I'm very confident.
so therefore it JvF is like KiravLight in DeathNote? haha its as if you need to know what flash is thinking so you can destroy his gameplay, that is if he wouldnt read what you read about his play in the game. dang confusing X_X
As long as his motivation and drive stays up he will continue to collect titles. He plays as close to a perfect terran as I've ever come across. And I really doubt we'll ever see similiar level of play in any other player.
On September 14 2010 17:59 Yodo wrote: Wow, most biased writeup ever. It always amaze me how people cant understand that if Flash is so bad at skills then JD is even worse. You cant say one without another. SC is strategy game, not micro game. And with all you complains about timing pushes, specially prepared builds and exploitation of mind game you imply that strategy is not part of strategy game. I mean What? Flash is most round-around player, he doesn't posses superb micro but strong in all part of the game and have exceptional strategic play and map control. There are a lot of good mechanical players on current SC scene but a very few people with good strategic thinking. Thats why he can easily cover his weakness and exploit vulnerable points of other players. You call Flash lucky but I feel otherwise. With some luck he should have won all finals in 3-0 fashion. Don't write analytic if you can't be more-or-less objective, calm down first.
Yea I understand my viewpoints are basically what Flash did wrong. Why I did this was because Flash is undisputedly the best, and has received so much praise, I really don't need to give him more. I am offering some counter-evidence, pointing out what I personally think to be some weaknesses or overhype in the past games where people have just blindly declared him "better", when he has to utilize one-time-use builds to beat jaedong.
On September 14 2010 17:59 Yodo wrote: Wow, most biased writeup ever. It always amaze me how people cant understand that if Flash is so bad at skills then JD is even worse. You cant say one without another. SC is strategy game, not micro game. And with all you complains about timing pushes, specially prepared builds and exploitation of mind game you imply that strategy is not part of strategy game. I mean What? Flash is most round-around player, he doesn't posses superb micro but strong in all part of the game and have exceptional strategic play and map control. There are a lot of good mechanical players on current SC scene but a very few people with good strategic thinking. Thats why he can easily cover his weakness and exploit vulnerable points of other players. You call Flash lucky but I feel otherwise. With some luck he should have won all finals in 3-0 fashion. Don't write analytic if you can't be more-or-less objective, calm down first.
Yea I understand my viewpoints are basically what Flash did wrong. Why I did this was because Flash is undisputedly the best, and has received so much praise, I really don't need to give him more. I am offering some counter-evidence, pointing out what I personally think to be some weaknesses or overhype in the past games where people have just blindly declared him "better", when he has to utilize one-time-use builds to beat jaedong.
Uh, yeah... So Flash has defeated Jaedong in three consecutive Starleague finals and people who call Flash better are doing so "blindly".
Flash was always one of the most talented boys out there, already at 15 a terran powerhouse. Besides that he resides at one of the two best training environments in starcraft ( those being KT and SKT obviously), with a very respectable coaching staff aiding him and his team. KT has been one of the most stable teams out there, has a good lineup in all races though their zergs have taken a hit lately, and has a very competitive and hardworking atmosphere. Flash is the indisputed ace of his team and aided by all these little factors has been growing at an astounding rate over the last few years.
Specifically for these season, Flash had to content with only one comparable rival, that being Jaedong. From the protoss side no danger would have to be expected. For some reason, Korea has never produced many talented protoss and beyond Garimto, Reach, Nal_Ra, Stork and Bisu no S-class tosses have come about. This year is one of the darkest for the protoss race ever, with the dragons losing their dominant position, with Bisu slumping and the other dragons not reaching their potential. Only Stork is still as competitive as before but does not have the peace and support that Flash can count on. Snow is the greatest talent for protoss but for various reasons is not quite there yet. Finally, the maps of the last year have been decidedly anti-protoss with only Polaris Rhapsody in recent memory to provide a protoss favoured haven.
The zerg has a lot more talent with Jaedong, Effort, Calm and Zero all S-class zergs. However, the maps of this season are mostly terran favoured, often heavily, and that makes it hard for the zergs to provide competition. Calm has been slumping while Zero still can't keep his choking under control, while Effort and Jaedong have had to content with team related troubles. Jaedong for yet another season has had to carry his team almost by himself, and this time Oz could not reach the playoffs, a big disappointment. Then, having his coach fired just before the OSL finals against Flash is terrible timing and puts Jaedong in a very disadvantageous position. For these reasons Flash's biggest rival couldn't muster his A-game and lost both finals were in previous situations the Dong had been able to go toe-to-toe with Flash.
Finally, besides Flash there are a couple of good terrans like Fantasy, Hiya, Light, Sea, and Leta that can give the Ultimate Weapon a run for his money. The problem however is that even if the skill level would be comparable, one should not forget that Flash strongest match-up actually is his tvt. The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
One can say that Flash is invincible. Given however, that the situation for his direct opponents worsens and for him further improves. If the next batch of maps will be protoss favoured (or even neutral!), if CJ Entus and Hwaseung Oz get their shit together, if Leta, Snow and Zero continue to grow and get even better, then Flash won't be that invincible anymore. Everything came out right for Flash last season, but it is unlikely that that will happen again. Even then, Flash had a spell of consecutive Ace losses in July that made him look not all that invincible after all...
Broodwar has seen a couple of "invincible" players in it's history. The four bonjwas obviously, Bisu and Jaedong more recently and now Flash. There have been periods without a dominant player, and periods with multiple. Now we've got an era were Flash is the strongest under the sky but I think it's obvious that even this period will come to an end, if it will not be prematurely shut off by the death of broodwar as a competitive sport.
All I noticed was your a KT fan with a WeMadeFox Logo...
[Azn]Nada casted confusion. Nada hurt himself in his own confusion.
ON a serious note, thanks for making a bunch of excuses for why JD could have played better. It really proved your point on how JD is a great player still and that without any mistakes JD could have won. I see it clearly now.... Grats on your first topic LOL.
Flash is certainly the best right now, but I'll hold back on calling him a bonjwa until he wins a finals where 4/5 maps are heavily zerg favored over terran, and not one where 4/5 maps are heavily terran favored over zerg.
On September 14 2010 23:23 hypercube wrote: I think Effort hinted in one of his interviews that there were ways to use Flash's game sense against him.
Dude, this is what any higher level players are doing, not only progamers. using opponents game sense against themselves. Flash is just the best in this.
On September 14 2010 23:23 hypercube wrote: I'm not sure what it was but something must have tipped off Flash in game 1 about the burrowed lings. If Jaedong could have created the exact same situation for Flash as in a normal game Flash probably would have moved out earlier to force sunkens, lost a group of MnM and would have been behind.
I'm not sure wth you mean by "normal game" :O nothing from outside the booth tipped flash if that's what you mean. Any player would have known that it wasn't safe to move out before flash actually did.
Flash went 1rax CC and then +1. He scouted JD 3hatch play but I think he saw only four lings, then he saw the speed upgrade. Who upgrades speed for four lings? Flash didn't have shells ready so he couldn't move out when the mutas were already morphing. He is not stupid so he didn't move out becouse that group could have been killed with ling+muta even without burrow.
if you mean why he didnt move out before mutas, then the reason would be that he had way too few marines to both defend his base and to survive from ling flank.
On September 14 2010 23:23 hypercube wrote: I'm not sure what it was but something must have tipped off Flash in game 1 about the burrowed lings. If Jaedong could have created the exact same situation for Flash as in a normal game Flash probably would have moved out earlier to force sunkens, lost a group of MnM and would have been behind.
I'm not sure wth you mean by "normal game" :O nothing from outside the booth tipped flash if that's what you mean. Any player would have known that it wasn't safe to move out before flash actually did.
Flash went 1rax CC and then +1. He scouted JD 3hatch play but I think he saw only four lings, then he saw the speed upgrade. Who upgrades speed for four lings? Flash didn't have shells ready so he couldn't move out when the mutas were already morphing. He is not stupid so he didn't move out becouse that group could have been killed with ling+muta even without burrow.
if you mean why he didnt move out before mutas, then the reason would be that he had way too few marines to both defend his base and to survive from ling flank.
Nah, I meant that he saw less lings than "usual" so he didn't move out in a situation where might have done otherwise. Maybe, it's not a good example as he wasn't going to move out before mutas anyway.
On September 14 2010 23:23 hypercube wrote: I'm not sure what it was but something must have tipped off Flash in game 1 about the burrowed lings. If Jaedong could have created the exact same situation for Flash as in a normal game Flash probably would have moved out earlier to force sunkens, lost a group of MnM and would have been behind.
I'm not sure wth you mean by "normal game" :O nothing from outside the booth tipped flash if that's what you mean. Any player would have known that it wasn't safe to move out before flash actually did.
Flash went 1rax CC and then +1. He scouted JD 3hatch play but I think he saw only four lings, then he saw the speed upgrade. Who upgrades speed for four lings? Flash didn't have shells ready so he couldn't move out when the mutas were already morphing. He is not stupid so he didn't move out becouse that group could have been killed with ling+muta even without burrow.
if you mean why he didnt move out before mutas, then the reason would be that he had way too few marines to both defend his base and to survive from ling flank.
Nah, I meant that he saw less lings than "usual" so he didn't move out in a situation where might have done otherwise. Maybe, it's not a good example as he wasn't going to move out before mutas anyway.
well, he saw four lings, but he also saw the speed. he couldn't take the risk that there would be more lings
On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote: Edit- Wow, this is a lot of feedback, but I feel my title is unrepresentative of my actual point which is: I feel Jaedong is not as out of it as a lot of people think him to be now that Flash is bonjwa. I feel that a huge combo of luck and pre-prepared builds, in addition to map advantages, is giving Flash a lot more hype than he deserves. Maybe I am wrong, and I will not deny Flash's starsense and general play have been improving, but I feel that in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash.
still think you missed what flash did in most games, and considering it map advantage. In most of his straight up games he outright beat JD. Look at the recent game on fighting spirit. He denied 3rd with only a few mistakes, never let JD expand almost ever.
I wouldn't take the maps as the reason why Flash has won the past few seasons, but more attribute it to that Flash did not allow JD to gain any ground he didn't earn. None of the traditional JvT double expands or anything of the sort, Flash on dreamliner did not allow at all for JD to do so even if he bunker rushed after scouting 12 hatch. Flash's map scouting and awareness has been way beyond every progamer for the past 6 seasons. Nothing has surprised him, (albeit a few 4pools lol) and he has stopped JD's traditional vT to change.
I think it's very safe to say in the last 6 finals, Flash has easily had the edge, and is utilizing it to the fullest extent. If you don't count NATE then it makes a lot more sense looking at the big picture. A loss to effort matters but isn't weighted as much as people might think in the JD vs Flash debate.
On September 15 2010 03:28 mdb wrote: oov was much more "invincible" at his prime
Even oov couldnt go 3 consecutive dual starleague finals and win both the MSL and OSL in the same season. There were periods of time when Flash had over 90% winratio and destroyed anyone put in front of him that's why he got the name Terminator.
On September 15 2010 04:00 Zeridian wrote: In most of his straight up games he outright beat JD. Look at the recent game on fighting spirit. He denied 3rd with only a few mistakes, never let JD expand almost ever.
I assume you mean on Eye of the Storm? Fighting Spirit was in the MSL, EotS in OSL. Looking at TLPD it's been a while since Flash beat JD on Fighting Spirit anyway.
JD lost that game the instant he researched burrow and made those lings. That's 100/100 for burrow plus a lot of not-made-drones that put him in a hole that Flash is never going to let him recover from. His burrow trick had no timing window against Flash's build like others have said. Unburrowing and losing all the lings for almost nothing just sealed the deal and the rest of the game was just Flash not letting JD back into the game. (Sure, losing the defiler at the 3rd with no swarm cast was bad, but I think that just sped up the game more than anything).
If you go through the last 4 finals they met (NATE MSL till Air OSL s2, not counting WCG), they played "standard" 1 rax FE vs 12 hatch 11 pool all of once. JD won that game, on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL.
In nearly every game in the past 4 finals they've played, the player with the better opening strategy won. JD and Flash don't seem very far apart in-game to me, particularly if they "agree" to play a pretty standard game. It's just that Flash has been doing stuff JD isn't ready for much more often than JD has the upper hand.
On September 15 2010 04:20 crate wrote: If you go through the last 4 finals they met (NATE MSL till Air OSL s2, not counting WCG), they played "standard" 1 rax FE vs 12 hatch 11 pool all of once. JD won that game, on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL.
In nearly every game in the past 4 finals they've played, the player with the better opening strategy won.
So its flash's fault that he stared going 14cc after scout if he sees dong 12 hatch? jd knows if he 12 hatches on 2 player maps, flash will scout and respond with 14cc most of the time.
Your problem is that you don't accept that as a valid ("standard") opening, even though its the best thing to do when scouting 12 hatch on 2 player maps. See hatch -> 14cc, pool -> 1/2 rax to wall off.
On September 15 2010 04:20 crate wrote: If you go through the last 4 finals they met (NATE MSL till Air OSL s2, not counting WCG), they played "standard" 1 rax FE vs 12 hatch 11 pool all of once. JD won that game, on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL.
In nearly every game in the past 4 finals they've played, the player with the better opening strategy won.
So its flash's fault that he stared going 14cc after scout if he sees dong 12 hatch? jd knows if he 12 hatches on 2 player maps, flash will scout and respond with 14cc most of the time.
Your problem is that you don't accept that as a valid ("standard") opening, even though its the best thing to do when scouting 12 hatch on 2 player maps. See hatch -> 14cc, pool -> 1/2 rax to wall off.
You are reading my post wrong.
Flash is dominating, this is no fluke, he is doing the right thing, and I am amazed at how easy his excellent strategies and preparation make it look. I am saying that his play against JD is not "standard" and that in "standard" games they are very close. But Flash is much much better right now because he's forcing the game to not go to that point, and JD is not reading Flash well enough to regain equilibrium.
I was responding to a poster who (as I interpret it anyway) said Flash was better than JD in "standard" games when I do not see evidence supporting that point.
I mean, how many other players out there manage to so thoroughly dominate JD strategically in a best-of-5? I admit I don't watch that much BW, but the last time I remember someone else so obviously out-thinking JD was Calm in an MSL semi quite some time ago.
edit: To be absolutely clear: I am in no way trying to downplay Flash's well-deserved victories over JD. I think they are largely a product of his strategies (as was JD's victory in NATE). The two players seem very close in straight-up-by-the-book-standard games like the game on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL. But Flash's superior strategies mean he's the one who won the past three times they met in a final, and that is a pretty big accomplishment against anyone, much less one of the most mechanically solid and mentally resilient progamers of all time, who's hardly lacking strategically himself.
On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote: ...but I feel that in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash.
I dont understand this kind of mentality. I'm not sure I agree with the premise at all (flash regularly overcomes B.O. disadvantages in all matchups) but for the sake of argument...
Let's pretend flash's success versus jaedong can be completely attributed to his build orders (the 14ccs, the 5 raxs, etc). Let's also pretend that in a 1rax FE vs. 12Hatch game flash would lose more to jaedong than he would win. Then why would he ever go 1 rax FE? If he knows he's disadvantaged in that kind of game, why would he play it? Starcraft isnt about who can play the most "standard" build orders the best, its about who can win using whatever (non-hack) tools available to them.
Also, im glad there havent been many 1rax FE vs. 12Hatch games between them recently. These last few LSRs have been so exciting because of the varied play they've both been showing.
@ crate, yeah I was wrong but at this point, it's rare to see JD even play standard against flash.
3hatch before pool, 12 hatch getting bunker rushed, 4pool twice (LOL). I mean if he chooses to spend money on burrowed lings that flash doesn't really fall for, I don't really know what to go off of. Honestly, not a lot to go off of.
On September 15 2010 04:55 crate wrote: edit: To be absolutely clear: I am in no way trying to downplay Flash's well-deserved victories over JD. I think they are largely a product of his strategies (as was JD's victory in NATE). The two players seem very close in straight-up-by-the-book-standard games like the game on Fighting Spirit in Bigfile MSL. But Flash's superior strategies mean he's the one who won the past three times they met in a final, and that is a pretty big accomplishment against anyone, much less one of the most mechanically solid and mentally resilient progamers of all time, who's hardly lacking strategically himself.
For me that's the most accurate summary you can get. In NATE, we where amazed how well Jaedong read Flash and got favourable openings on at least 3 out of 4 maps. We were talking about Jaedongs superior mindgames and superior preparation which makes him the best Bo5 player of all time.
Flash managed to turn that around completely in the last three finals. He got away with 6 out of 7 14CCs, and when Jaedong finally wanted to put an end to this, both his 4 pools put him at a BO-disadvantage, only winning one game because FlaSh screwed up (as he said in his winner interview). On top of that, in the very last game of these three finals he pulls out a 5rax which is of comparable genius like his 7rax on HBR.
This makes him the better player now (and of course during the last year). He now dominates an area which we thought was Jaedongs main advantage in BoX-play. He catched up and surpassed him. Combined with his godly macro, unexplainable game sense and only slightly worse mechanics (compared to JD in this case) it makes him just plain better.
In a completely standard game setting, they would probably go 500:500 vs each other in 1000 games. But since their series are not defined by standard play right now, this doesn't really matter. It just shows that the gap between those two can be closed if Jaedong finds holes in Flashs play, like EffOrt does from time to time.
On September 15 2010 05:24 Malinor wrote: In a completely standard game setting, they would probably go 500:500 vs each other in 1000 games.
I don't believe this at all. I think Flash has been the superior player in so called 'standard' play - his ability to read the game, and reinforce his units (something that other players do comparatively poorly) makes him a very very difficult person to play against. Game 1 OSL and Game 3 MSL show how potent his mid-game is, and we all know what he can do if it gets to the late game.
come on, flash has completely outplayed jd in recent past. just admit that flash is better player atm. his multitasking is better too, quit making excuses already and wait for the next JvF ^^
you want all players who played each other so often in the finals to not play mind games to win the whole thing. i dont get it. flash wins and thats that.
EDIT: actually take a look at sea.really you want them both to keep playing like them all the time with no switch up you wouldnt even make it far in a starleague
On September 15 2010 06:00 Tha_Docta wrote: I can t remember where, but I remember reading an interview where a bunch of progamers were agreeing with the idea that if...
Jaedong and flash played the same race, they would be equally matched
What you call the most standard TvZ game is exactly what terrans are trying hard to avoid. When defilers come out, they make 95% of terran army obsolete. Combine that with plague and consume and you get the most imbalanced unit in the game. And when terrans use the only unit that is somewhat effective against the dark swarm (yes, its the tank) you call that gay play or turtling. Do you just expect all terrans to go bio against the dark swarm, and when they lose say that zerg player is mechanically better.
The whole point of TvZ for terrans is to not let zergs get to defilers easily, with 3 or more gasses, because it becomes almost impossible to win if that happens. You can not just call that scenario a standard game and say Jaedong would win in a standard game. Probably if you look at the statistics of those "standrad" TvZ games you would see that most of them are won by zerg players.
Also, MSL game 3, Flash played brilliantly for most of the game. He denied Jaedongs third for such a long time. The only mistake he made was letting Jaedong expand easily in the bottom right corner, when he had no army to defend it. If you look carefully the first game of the OSL you will see that jaedong again tried to sneak an expansion in the bottom-right, but now Flash was prepared, and denied that, winning the game easily.
Generally speaking in the last 3 finals, all the games jaedong won against flash, he was extremely lucky. It could have easily be 3:0 in the last MSL.
On September 15 2010 06:26 nimoraca wrote: What you call the most standard TvZ game is exactly what terrans are trying hard to avoid. When defilers come out, they make 95% of terran army obsolete. Combine that with plague and consume and you get the most imbalanced unit in the game. And when terrans use the only unit that is somewhat effective against the dark swarm (yes, its the tank) you call that gay play or turtling. Do you just expect all terrans to go bio against the dark swarm, and when they lose say that zerg player is mechanically better.
The whole point of TvZ for terrans is to not let zergs get to defilers easily, with 3 or more gasses, because it becomes almost impossible to win if that happens. You can not just call that scenario a standard game and say Jaedong would win in a standard game. Probably if you look at the statistics of those "standrad" TvZ games you would see that most of them are won by zerg players.
Also, MSL game 3, Flash played brilliantly for most of the game. He denied Jaedongs third for such a long time. The only mistake he made was letting Jaedong expand easily in the bottom right corner, when he had no army to defend it. If you look carefully the first game of the OSL you will see that jaedong again tried to sneak an expansion in the bottom-right, but now Flash was prepared, and denied that, winning the game easily.
Generally speaking in the last 3 finals, all the games jaedong won against flash, he was extremely lucky. It could have easily be 3:0 in the last MSL.
Yeah. It should have been 9:0 for Flash, that would show the real difference between them. All this luck with the opening builds, all that luck that even Flash sometimes messes up, all this fucking luck Jaedong had in these three series. I'm pretty sure he is still quite happy.
Remember game 4 OSL where the Defiler that Jaedong dropped in Flashs main made 95% of Flashs army obsolete and therefore brought Jaedong to game 5? Yeah, me too. Those 5% rest-army stood no chance against those ~24lings and ~6 lurkers.
Yeah, I wrote what I had to say on the last page. More isn't probably good for my blood pressure.
On September 15 2010 06:26 nimoraca wrote: What you call the most standard TvZ game is exactly what terrans are trying hard to avoid. When defilers come out, they make 95% of terran army obsolete. Combine that with plague and consume and you get the most imbalanced unit in the game. And when terrans use the only unit that is somewhat effective against the dark swarm (yes, its the tank) you call that gay play or turtling. Do you just expect all terrans to go bio against the dark swarm, and when they lose say that zerg player is mechanically better.
The whole point of TvZ for terrans is to not let zergs get to defilers easily, with 3 or more gasses, because it becomes almost impossible to win if that happens. You can not just call that scenario a standard game and say Jaedong would win in a standard game. Probably if you look at the statistics of those "standrad" TvZ games you would see that most of them are won by zerg players.
Also, MSL game 3, Flash played brilliantly for most of the game. He denied Jaedongs third for such a long time. The only mistake he made was letting Jaedong expand easily in the bottom right corner, when he had no army to defend it. If you look carefully the first game of the OSL you will see that jaedong again tried to sneak an expansion in the bottom-right, but now Flash was prepared, and denied that, winning the game easily.
Generally speaking in the last 3 finals, all the games jaedong won against flash, he was extremely lucky. It could have easily be 3:0 in the last MSL.
Yea, I've always felt that way, but I mean what would be considered standard late game for TvZ then? (Assuming no pure mech). I always thought it was just 3/3bio with mass vessels and tanks, but yes, I agree that recently terran have been doing their best to avoid the bio late game, either ending games with a huge early push or going mech endgame... I always did think lategame bio vs ultraling+deflier was really weak, and that may be why I thought (and still thin) JD would win in that type of the scenario.
I find it pretty hilarious that people actually think that Jaedong is going to be a serious threat to Flash in a year(hint: he doesn't get younger and is two years older than Flash). If at all, he'll be somewhat of an opponent for half a year or until they all decide to start playing SC2. :p
Unless a new gosu suddenly emerges, which I think is fairly unlikely due to SC2, Flash will dominate the BW scene until he decides to quit or it dies.
oh my god this conversation is getting ridicilous. look, in the past 2gate opening was standard in PvZ, now late game mech in TvZ. fucking bio is terrible when they just can't do anything vs swarms. remember this fantasy build? there's not too many people that uses it anymore since zergs started winning vs it, i still remember how zergs whined every day "GO BIO MECH BORING". well guess what? bio is fucking boring, it's fun and easy for you zergs when you're having fun microing your mutas and defilers and late game ultra craclings. and you know bio force can't do anything else than to back away vs ultra+crack+swarm.
i think it's pretty funny how many people are mentioning that jaedong is too old now lol. he's only 20. nada didn't win his golden mouse until he was 21.
This convo with a TL buddy sums up my thoughts(I'm Skylar. Whoever's name is written first on the line is the msg sender):
9/9/2010 10:21:01 PM Jimmy Skylar if jaedong is going to win 9/9/2010 10:21:07 PM Jimmy Skylar he has to prepare some really good builds/rushes 9/9/2010 10:21:14 PM Jimmy Skylar that seems to be where he got flash 9/9/2010 10:26:08 PM Skylar Jimmy yeah that's true. jaedong doesnt seem to be able to just wing it as well as flash is able to. JD has to focus really hard to do something to do well. flash seems to be able to just be like "ill throw some of this in there, some of that. oh, he's going this? i'll do that". he's good at reacting to unexpected things. JD seems to fall apart and not expect some things that are thrown at him 9/9/2010 10:26:30 PM Skylar Jimmy like that one game he lost to sea a month or two ago 9/9/2010 10:26:55 PM Skylar Jimmy or that game vs light when he 8raxed and cheesed him 9/9/2010 10:27:05 PM Jimmy Skylar well i think flash is just so incredibly smart. i can't really explain why but he just seems to pick up on the SLIGHTEST clues whatsoever and always has units at hte right place at the right time 9/9/2010 10:27:08 PM Jimmy Skylar which makes him SUPER powerful tvt 9/9/2010 10:27:37 PM Jimmy Skylar whereas jaedong really relies on his fast mouse speed, reaction time, multitasking, and unit control 9/9/2010 10:28:23 PM Skylar Jimmy that's why it feels like JD has to have a really strong build planned. he can't just try to catch flash off guard. doesn't seem to work well imo 9/9/2010 10:29:01 PM Skylar Jimmy seems like JD can fare really well if both players were just told to do certain builds against eachother or put in to a micro tourny or something 9/9/2010 10:29:23 PM Skylar Jimmy but yeah, flash feels "smarter" 9/9/2010 10:31:35 PM Jimmy Skylar yeah i completely agre 9/9/2010 10:31:36 PM Jimmy Skylar agree*
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
I'd say Skyhigh is (was) a better TvT player (he's pretty terrible in the other matchups though). Hard to do a recent comparison these days since he never advances in leagues. B
ut yeah, the other players listed (fanta/hiya/leta/light/sea/fbh/upmagic/baby/mind) don't come close to beating flash at their top respective MUs.
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
I'd say Skyhigh is (was) a better TvT player (he's pretty terrible in the other matchups though). Hard to do a recent comparison these days since he never advances in leagues. But yeah, the other players listed (fanta/hiya/leta/light/sea/fbh/upmagic/baby/mind) don't come close to beating flash.
Fanta vs Flash was not a close series? Baby didn't completely dominate Flash in PL? Some of those players have beaten flash, or have been very close, even in series.
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
I'd say Skyhigh is (was) a better TvT player (he's pretty terrible in the other matchups though). Hard to do a recent comparison these days since he never advances in leagues. But yeah, the other players listed (fanta/hiya/leta/light/sea/fbh/upmagic/baby/mind) don't come close to beating flash.
Fanta vs Flash was not a close series? Baby didn't completely dominate Flash in PL? Some of those players have beaten flash, or have been very close, even in series.
Re-read the post chain I replied to. This isn't discussing a strong series vs flash, this is about their matchup comparisons. Fanta TvP vs Flash TvP. And no, Baby doesn't hold a candle to flash these days, rainbow socks or not.
yeah exactly obviously jaedong was letting flash have his golden mouse with the 4pool//lurk drops. if jaedong wanted to he could rape flash 3-0 with pure mutas and make him cry, but jaedongs a nice guy.
obviously jk, but at least now they're even in terms of OSL wins to compete for platinum. and i'm pretty sure they will BOTH get platinum mouse before they quit, maybe one or both will even get diamond
His play may not be invincible and truthfully its really not the build or the micro or the APM. What happens outside of the game is what people consider. Flash had the mental power and skill to win a grandslam and therefore he is considered invincible. Your builds don't have to be invincible in order to win, its how you do it with skill and at the end of the day the most important thing is winning. You win all titles you are perfect, your plays don't have to be, they just need to be at the very least impressive.
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
Not what I wanted to say, brother. I meant that their strength, their specialty did not lay in tvt, but in other areas, whereas Flash's strongest, most confident matchup is his tvt. That does not exclude Flash being better in tvp or tvz than these other players. The other tvt specialists are also not stronger than Flash in tvt, for the reasons I mentioned before. If Skyhigh, for example, would be as fit and as confident as Flash is now, I'd say that they'd be about equally skilled in tvt and a match between them would be really close. However, I think that Fantasy, as he is now, about equally fit and confident as Flash, will probably lose to him, as Fantasy lacks the confidence in the matchup that Flash does have. On the other hand, if a strong Snow or a confident Stork shows up, I'll bet that Fantasy will have a better chance of beating them than Flash, as his specialty is tvp.
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
I'd say Skyhigh is (was) a better TvT player (he's pretty terrible in the other matchups though). Hard to do a recent comparison these days since he never advances in leagues. B
ut yeah, the other players listed (fanta/hiya/leta/light/sea/fbh/upmagic/baby/mind) don't come close to beating flash at their top respective MUs.
If I may be so bold as to jump in here, Flash himself has mentioned that he feared and look forward to playing tvt versus FBH and Upmagic the most. Besides that, Baby has beat him in the past, and Sea is consistently sent out to battle Flash by MBC. Mind has been slumping for a long time now and it is difficult to see him defeat anyone these days, but he was once a really good player with a killer tvt. You could add Iris and Canata to this list as well, though they are definitely past their peak. Point is however, not to argue that these players are at this moment, better in any match-up than Flash, but that they'll lose to Flash in a tvt for the reasons mentioned.
On September 14 2010 10:12 ArvickHero wrote: Off-season is when things change (like this last one, Bisu's slump, Flash's godmode), so most likely we'll see a shift in the power structure when games start again. I'm gunning for Flash to hit a massive slump
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
Not what I wanted to say, brother. I meant that their strength, their specialty did not lay in tvt, but in other areas, whereas Flash's strongest, most confident matchup is his tvt. That does not exclude Flash being better in tvp or tvz than these other players. The other tvt specialists are also not stronger than Flash in tvt, for the reasons I mentioned before. If Skyhigh, for example, would be as fit and as confident as Flash is now, I'd say that they'd be about equally skilled in tvt and a match between them would be really close. However, I think that Fantasy, as he is now, about equally fit and confident as Flash, will probably lose to him, as Fantasy lacks the confidence in the matchup that Flash does have. On the other hand, if a strong Snow or a confident Stork shows up, I'll bet that Fantasy will have a better chance of beating them than Flash, as his specialty is tvp.
Disagree. Flash has the best vP of all Terrans ever, Fantasy's doesn't even come close. In fact many consider TvP to be his best matchup in spite his claims that it's the matchup he's the least confident in. I'd go as far as to say that no protoss stands a chance in a bo5 against Flash right now. Not even Snow, though in time to come he may have the potential to.
You can't say Flash is a specialist either, when you consider that other than his TvT and TvP, his TvZ also outclasses all of the other Terrans except maybe Light's. He's the most complete player BW has ever witnessed. Calling him a TvT specialist because he has the highest win % in that matchup isn't appropriate.
How the fuck could anyone argue that Fantasy has better (or as good) TvP as Flash? Flash is 100 ELO points ahead in TvP, has almost 10 % higher winrate and still he's playing Bo5's vs the some of the best players in the game in Starleague semi-finals whereas Fantasy hasn't played a Bo5 vs a Toss since forever. Seriously, how the fuck?
i dont think he's saying fantasy has better TvP than flash. i think he's saying if there was a flash-like protoss right now fantasy would have a better chance against the protoss than he would against flash.
On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote: in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash
Stopped reading right there, can you scream Jaedong fanboy harder please.
Slim chance but if you read this before you read OP, I suggest you stop too.
for all these "bonjwa" posters... it's like Milkis posted in another thread. Even I missed the point at first:
you don't debate a bonjwa, a bonjwa just is. if someone completely dominates everyone for a long period of time, they're a bonjwa; that's what it means. there wasn't a bonjwa since savior because the scene was too competitive, the average level of play was too high for anyone to exceed it by enough to become a bonjwa.
jaedong and flash exceeded that level of play for a long time, but at the same time, so they were, alternately: both bonjwas, or neither was (because of the other). flash is leading the leessang-rok at the moment, and he's done it for long enough this year that a lot of fans are willing to call him a bonjwa now, or they feel strongly that he deserves it (or they're sentimental about the 10 year OSL anniversary)
it all depends on how you define it. does a bonjwa have to dominate for a year? two years? does it matter if all the other progamers are bad, like ten years ago?
that's why I think "god" tier is better. nobody is dominating these days like the old bonjwas did. these new players are better than bonjwas. bonjwas are washed up scrubs these days compared to god tier, compared to the new S class.
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
Not what I wanted to say, brother. I meant that their strength, their specialty did not lay in tvt, but in other areas, whereas Flash's strongest, most confident matchup is his tvt. That does not exclude Flash being better in tvp or tvz than these other players. The other tvt specialists are also not stronger than Flash in tvt, for the reasons I mentioned before. If Skyhigh, for example, would be as fit and as confident as Flash is now, I'd say that they'd be about equally skilled in tvt and a match between them would be really close. However, I think that Fantasy, as he is now, about equally fit and confident as Flash, will probably lose to him, as Fantasy lacks the confidence in the matchup that Flash does have. On the other hand, if a strong Snow or a confident Stork shows up, I'll bet that Fantasy will have a better chance of beating them than Flash, as his specialty is tvp.
Disagree. Flash has the best vP of all Terrans ever, Fantasy's doesn't even come close. In fact many consider TvP to be his best matchup in spite his claims that it's the matchup he's the least confident in. I'd go as far as to say that no protoss stands a chance in a bo5 against Flash right now. Not even Snow, though in time to come he may have the potential to.
You can't say Flash is a specialist either, when you consider that other than his TvT and TvP, his TvZ also outclasses all of the other Terrans except maybe Light's. He's the most complete player BW has ever witnessed. Calling him a TvT specialist because he has the highest win % in that matchup isn't appropriate.
On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote: in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash
Stopped reading right there, can you scream Jaedong fanboy harder please.
Slim chance but if you read this before you read OP, I suggest you stop too.
Yeah I really don't get this either. The reason Flash won games 1 and 4 is because he so expertly kept Jaedong on 2 base: even while getting doom dropped in his main, he had the presence of mind to load up a drop ship to patrol around for Jaedong's inevitable timing expansion, something few star players could manage. So what the OP is saying, as I read it is: If Terran does a passive opening and everything goes right for Zerg in the midgame, Jaedong would win. Wtf? The whole point of the Terran midgame is to wreck the Zerg economy, and Flash accomplished that repeatedly in these games.
After the MSL people complained that Jaedong was letting Flash get away with economically greedy builds. In the OSL, Flash did a 4-rax aggression build and a 5-rax every time Jaedong didn't 4 pool, and won 3-1, so now they are complaining that the games don't count because it's not "standard".
I'm glad to see that the debate is finally tipping here because in my opinion Flash was bonjwa a long time ago, but it's also disappointing to see people tying themselves up in knots trying to rationalize how he still isn't even though there is literally nothing he hasn't achieved in the past year and a half. He's not invincible and he'll eventually burn out if BW doesn't burn out first, but right now, he's absolutely the king.
On September 15 2010 08:03 Piste wrote: oh my god this conversation is getting ridicilous. look, in the past 2gate opening was standard in PvZ, now late game mech in TvZ. fucking bio is terrible when they just can't do anything vs swarms. remember this fantasy build? there's not too many people that uses it anymore since zergs started winning vs it, i still remember how zergs whined every day "GO BIO MECH BORING". well guess what? bio is fucking boring, it's fun and easy for you zergs when you're having fun microing your mutas and defilers and late game ultra craclings. and you know bio force can't do anything else than to back away vs ultra+crack+swarm.
bio is not easy for us zergs? are you joking? mech is easy for us these days, it's the fucking bio-> mech switch that combines the worst of both worlds for us.
bio in early game is fucking strong mech in late game is fucking strong
combine the two and what do you get? fucking strong terran
dont get me wrong tho, i dont think tvz is imba lol
so you're saying both bio and mech are easy but bio to mech transfer is hard? yeah I think so too.
well, i shouldn't have included the word "easy". but I have no idea why are you saying "fucking strong terran" if you don't think it's imba. or do you mean that both zerg and terran is "fucking strong"?
On September 16 2010 01:32 etch wrote: i dont think he's saying fantasy has better TvP than flash. i think he's saying if there was a flash-like protoss right now fantasy would have a better chance against the protoss than he would against flash.
Except that wouldn't make sense either, as Flash flat out has better TvP anyway.
On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else.
...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up.
Not what I wanted to say, brother. I meant that their strength, their specialty did not lay in tvt, but in other areas, whereas Flash's strongest, most confident matchup is his tvt. That does not exclude Flash being better in tvp or tvz than these other players. The other tvt specialists are also not stronger than Flash in tvt, for the reasons I mentioned before. If Skyhigh, for example, would be as fit and as confident as Flash is now, I'd say that they'd be about equally skilled in tvt and a match between them would be really close. However, I think that Fantasy, as he is now, about equally fit and confident as Flash, will probably lose to him, as Fantasy lacks the confidence in the matchup that Flash does have. On the other hand, if a strong Snow or a confident Stork shows up, I'll bet that Fantasy will have a better chance of beating them than Flash, as his specialty is tvp.
Disagree. Flash has the best vP of all Terrans ever, Fantasy's doesn't even come close. In fact many consider TvP to be his best matchup in spite his claims that it's the matchup he's the least confident in. I'd go as far as to say that no protoss stands a chance in a bo5 against Flash right now. Not even Snow, though in time to come he may have the potential to.
You can't say Flash is a specialist either, when you consider that other than his TvT and TvP, his TvZ also outclasses all of the other Terrans except maybe Light's. He's the most complete player BW has ever witnessed. Calling him a TvT specialist because he has the highest win % in that matchup isn't appropriate.
Kang Min(out of his prime) beat him. That is all
Ah, that's only because Kang Min is a complete baller. We know what happened after that customary game though
On September 15 2010 21:50 Holgerius wrote: How the fuck could anyone argue that Fantasy has better (or as good) TvP as Flash? Flash is 100 ELO points ahead in TvP, has almost 10 % higher winrate and still he's playing Bo5's vs the some of the best players in the game in Starleague semi-finals whereas Fantasy hasn't played a Bo5 vs a Toss since forever. Seriously, how the fuck?
Yeah! Didnt Fantasy get his ass kicked in OSL in a group with 3 protoss? lol Also you can't say that Light has a better TvZ because he failed to beat Jaedong... Flash has around 75% winratio vAll in the last year and this is as close as you'll get to invincibility in professional SC.
Invincibility is never forever for any sport/games. Everyone gets old or loses focus after a period of time, Flash will drop a game now and then stop his dominance after a while. Flash is miles ahead of other pro-gamers right now in terms of confidence and maintaining a strong mentality, he might dominant for long time still at this rate.
Well I think FlaSh will eventually fall, just as every player who once appeared invincible and flawless before him. However, with SC2 gaining popularity, I don't know if FlaSh's era will end before the BW scene itself.
On September 17 2010 15:18 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote: Well I think FlaSh will eventually fall, just as every player who once appeared invincible and flawless before him. However, with SC2 gaining popularity, I don't know if FlaSh's era will end before the BW scene itself.
I believe that BW scene is in better shape than SC2 scene at the moment, so please don't make too far fetched predictions...
I partially agree with what the OP is saying, but overall Flash does have a much better grasp of the game than you give him credit for. Jaedong can't just rely on pure mechanical play to overcome Flash. Ultimately it'll take some more interesting play on JD's part to overcome Flash's game sense.
On September 15 2010 06:26 nimoraca wrote: What you call the most standard TvZ game is exactly what terrans are trying hard to avoid. When defilers come out, they make 95% of terran army obsolete. Combine that with plague and consume and you get the most imbalanced unit in the game. And when terrans use the only unit that is somewhat effective against the dark swarm (yes, its the tank) you call that gay play or turtling. Do you just expect all terrans to go bio against the dark swarm, and when they lose say that zerg player is mechanically better.
The whole point of TvZ for terrans is to not let zergs get to defilers easily, with 3 or more gasses, because it becomes almost impossible to win if that happens. You can not just call that scenario a standard game and say Jaedong would win in a standard game. Probably if you look at the statistics of those "standrad" TvZ games you would see that most of them are won by zerg players.
Also, MSL game 3, Flash played brilliantly for most of the game. He denied Jaedongs third for such a long time. The only mistake he made was letting Jaedong expand easily in the bottom right corner, when he had no army to defend it. If you look carefully the first game of the OSL you will see that jaedong again tried to sneak an expansion in the bottom-right, but now Flash was prepared, and denied that, winning the game easily.
Generally speaking in the last 3 finals, all the games jaedong won against flash, he was extremely lucky. It could have easily be 3:0 in the last MSL.
Yeah. It should have been 9:0 for Flash, that would show the real difference between them. All this luck with the opening builds, all that luck that even Flash sometimes messes up, all this fucking luck Jaedong had in these three series. I'm pretty sure he is still quite happy.
Remember game 4 OSL where the Defiler that Jaedong dropped in Flashs main made 95% of Flashs army obsolete and therefore brought Jaedong to game 5? Yeah, me too. Those 5% rest-army stood no chance against those ~24lings and ~6 lurkers.
Yeah, I wrote what I had to say on the last page. More isn't probably good for my blood pressure.
You got the point wrong. If you read my post carefully you will see that I said "The whole point of TvZ for terrans is to not let zergs get to defilers easily, with 3 or more gasses". In that game Flash did just that. He delayed defilers as much as possible (he had irradiate when first defiler popped out), he denied Jeadongs third. So that's why he won.
He has a huge edge over Jaedong and other top players now because of his 'aura'. The other player is not in the mind state to beat him. Jaedong is too nervous and desperate against flash that he can't play as well as he should and seems to make terrible micro mistakes. Flash just shuts him out.
Maybe one positive thing about Bisu's slump is that he hasn't vsed Flash in any meaningful games since Flash started dominating. If he does return to his top form he won't have to get over any mental scars when vsing Flash like Jaedong will have to.
On September 17 2010 22:38 crazeh wrote: He has a huge edge over Jaedong and other top players now because of his 'aura'. The other player is not in the mind state to beat him. Jaedong is too nervous and desperate against flash that he can't play as well as he should and seems to make terrible micro mistakes. Flash just shuts him out.
Maybe one positive thing about Bisu's slump is that he hasn't vsed Flash in any meaningful games since Flash started dominating. If he does return to his top form he won't have to get over any mental scars when vsing Flash like Jaedong will have to.
true dat, but i think tvp has more innate stability than tvz. tvz is a very volatile matchup for both sides, while tvp offers less potential for the worse player to take off a game from the superior opponent. and bisus pvt was never good, he just somehow was always playing well against flash. but i wouldnt rely too heavily on this pattern. jd also always seemed ahead of flash until he got his ass kicked 3 times in a row...
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more.
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more.
Flash has been the most aggressive terran since october. He borders on hyper aggressiveness. Just because he opens up economically doesn't mean he isn't aggressive.
On September 14 2010 09:36 stafu wrote: Yes, he is. Flash would've been bonjwa a long time ago if it weren't for the existence of Jaedong, and similarly Jaedong would have been bonjwa (imo) if not for the existence of Flash. They are so far ahead of the competition at this point, and now Flash has Jaedong's number. I don't think it matters what opening they each go for, especially given Flash's play in the last game of the finals. He just completely shut JD down and that's what he's been doing in their mid-late games lately.
He knows how he plays and he knows how to shut it down. I don't think Jaedong has had more than 2 successfully saturated bases vs Flash in any of the recent games and that's what (I believe) messes him up.
FWIW I'm a Jaedong fan, but it's clear even to me that Flash has his number right now, and I would agree that Flash is bonjwa.
i find it hard to believe you consider jaedong a bonjwa when bisu was on top of his game yeah bisu has been slumping but hed still beat jaedong in a bo5 even now
if jaedong wasnt around, flash would already have CRUSHED the record and be holding both platinum leagues (5 wins) on both hands... probably like a diamond thingy too (like 7 wins idk?) INVINCIBLE MAN
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more.
Flash has been the most aggressive terran since october. He borders on hyper aggressiveness. Just because he opens up economically doesn't mean he isn't aggressive.
On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote: Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all.
Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with.
Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more.
Flash has been the most aggressive terran since october. He borders on hyper aggressiveness. Just because he opens up economically doesn't mean he isn't aggressive.
Okay, he's Boxer.
He's good, but no one is Boxer except for Boxer - and there will never be another Boxer who will bring so much to the stage.
Flash only seems invisible due to terran favored map. We've seen how effective flash's turtle style is. Even when he's on the verge of losing he turtles his way out. If map pool changes to favor another race and he was still dominating thats when we should consider flash invisible as of now not really.
On September 23 2010 08:05 BreakerD wrote: Flash only seems invisible due to terran favored map. We've seen how effective flash's turtle style is. Even when he's on the verge of losing he turtles his way out. If map pool changes to favor another race and he was still dominating thats when we should consider flash invisible as of now not really.
Well tbh its really Jaedong who got nervous (I think he is somewhat depressed). Flash mindfucked him pretty bad. I still stand on my arguement of Flash being invincible to anyone BUT Stork
On September 23 2010 09:15 Xiphos wrote: Well tbh its really Jaedong who got nervous (I think he is somewhat depressed). Flash mindfucked him pretty bad. I still stand on my arguement of Flash being invincible to anyone BUT Stork
therefore JD gets some credit for all-in Stork on osl game 5? and not enough credit for Stork not taking both of them down? lol
Jaedong has not been playing his best since the Nate MSL finals. He actually owned Flash in that finals. Games 1,2 and 3 Flash went for the same build, losing games 1 and 3, and won game 2 with a massive comeback only after JD threw the game away with fail guardians. The 8 rax in game 4 was not Flash saying "fuck it" after the power outage it was him trying a new build since his 1raxCC wasn't doing well. Flash then practiced hard prepared great builds and destroyed JD 3-0 in the Hana Datoo MSL finals and since then Jaedong has played pretty terrible against Flash no doubt partly due to mental problems when facing him and has been easy picking. If Flash didn't get to play Jaedong in the finals over and over and had to vs varied opponents for example say Jaedong in the Nate MSL, Effort in the OSL, Fantasy in the next MSL final, a top form Bisu in another MSL and a top form Stork in the other OSL final...I can't see him winning as much as he did.
No. Being scared to go 1rax CC instead going to mass 14CCs is not what i would call invincible. He looks good on terran favoured maps I will look forward to a change in the map pool to something a little like bias.
I want to see Flash vs. the Bisu that shamed him in that one Bo3 about a year ago with Medusa in the map pool. Sure that map sucked for Terran (relatively speaking), but it was still a great game.
On September 23 2010 11:44 Sworn wrote: No. Being scared to go 1rax CC instead going to mass 14CCs is not what i would call invincible
If it wins...that's all that matters
this
It is like saying Savior wasn't invinsible, because he was scared and was going mass 3 hatch muta into fast defiler. Damn you, people, and your retarded arguments!
Jaedong is just taking out too many possible contenders with flash and flash has throughly read through jaedong's mind. We need some underdogs to fight flash cause he won't know their mindset, but jaedong takes out too many of themT_T. Hopefully jaedong can completely change his gameplay, or flash would just keep on reading him like a book that he has read countless times
On September 23 2010 11:44 Sworn wrote: No. Being scared to go 1rax CC instead going to mass 14CCs is not what i would call invincible. He looks good on terran favoured maps I will look forward to a change in the map pool to something a little like bias.
I would say shaking your opponent up to the point where he 4pools in two consecutive games is what I would call invincible.
On September 23 2010 11:44 Sworn wrote: No. Being scared to go 1rax CC instead going to mass 14CCs is not what i would call invincible. He looks good on terran favoured maps I will look forward to a change in the map pool to something a little like bias.
I would say shaking your opponent up to the point where he 4pools in two consecutive games is what I would call invincible.
1-1 = isn't invincible, nor desirable for Flash, especially on the two maps which he was obliged to take 2-0 by default.
Flash is incredibly good, but by no means invincible, Jaedong is a very strong contendor for Flash and during almost all finals it boils right down to Jaedong vs. Flash, and the Bo5s usually always run into 4, most commonly 5 games.
Flash seems beatable pure gameplay wise, he has lost a decent amount of straight up games to a variety of good players.
The problem is no one seems to prepare for matches quite like Flash (and whoever helps him on KT) can. I really love Flash's playstyle in BO5 series, where he's completely unafraid of taking risks because he knows they pay off in the long run. Variance says you'll have things like the Effort series where the risks don't pay off, but overall he got a nice payout with THREE CONSECUTIVE LEAGUE WINS ;o
Also, now that he's friends with JD, he seems to be in his head. God, why couldn't Stork have drawn Flash in the semis instead. Would have been sooooo fun to watch. Although, I would have predicted Flash to win with some incredible cheese :o
EPT
but we will see -.-
