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Edit- Wow, this is a lot of feedback, but I feel my title is unrepresentative of my actual point which is: I feel Jaedong is not as out of it as a lot of people think him to be now that Flash is bonjwa. I feel that a huge combo of luck and pre-prepared builds, in addition to map advantages, is giving Flash a lot more hype than he deserves. Maybe I am wrong, and I will not deny Flash's starsense and general play have been improving, but I feel that in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash.
At this point, a lot of people will think I am lying when I say I am a Flash/Terran fan, but all I can say is I love Flash, but having Flash being undisputedly better than Jaedong takes a lot out of SC for me XD. (I also feel really bad for OZ fans since KT have basically won everything and they dont have much to go on... personally I am KT fan, but its always to see a healthy debate. -end Edit.
I'd just like to start this by saying I've been lurking at TL for ~2-3 years now, but this is my first topic. I would also like to say that I have and always will be a Terran Fan, and was a huge Flash fan since I saw his face (he happens to look just like a good friend of mine at school). I've hated Jaedong for god knows how long, and have posted multiple rage comments about dark swarm/ultra imba after watching him.
I have always feared FvJ finals as Jaedong would come out with his badass mechenics and rip Flash apart, but recently, Flash has beaten Jaedong in 3 finals and everyone is claiming Flash is bonjwa (a title I am not gonna discuss). However, I always did have an eerie feeling, despite these recent victories, that should Flash and Jaedong play a 12 hatch/12 pool vs 1 rax CC into standard muta play on a completely balanced map, Jaedong will win. I'm not sure if this is just a lingering omen from the past, or if its still me who thinks Jaedong's unit-by-unit mechanics are stronger. For reference to why I feel this way, let me analyze some of their recent games:
Korean Air OSL
Flight Dreamliner - Jaedong lost this game I feel because 1. Flash rushed, throwing off his timings, 2. the whole abusable point of the map was short air distance (ie Muta Harass). By refusing to do Muta Harass, I felt Jaedong failed to take advantage of the map (The drops were frankly dumb... dropping lurkers into a terran base next to a bunch of buildings with tanks covering them won't do jack).
On this game, I would like to note Flash's failed attempts to get either one of his marines into the bunker.
Grand Line - Jaedong 4 pools, but I mean once again, Flash can't get the marine in the bunker.
Polaris Rhapsody - When Flash goes with his 8 marines, and Jaedong has 2 lings, Flash refuses to run or even scout the ramp into instant victory. Instead, Flash runs his marines around the natural aimlessly and ends up poking the hatchery before losing all of them.
Eye of the Storm - Once again, this game was by no means standard; Jaedong gets defilers into his third seconds too late, and fails to do any muta harass as he babysits his burrowed lings... This entire series, I feel that Jaedong fails to utilize what he is best at -muta harass, aka pure mechanics.
Bigfile MSL
Polaris Rhapsody (Game 5) - Jaedong as one of the TL writers said, had a perfect counter-mech build planned, but Flash fooled him with a sudden 4-rax bio rush. I felt that this frankly was in part to the map imbalance forcing Jaedong into a certain build, but I might be wrong.
Triathalon - Flash "gifts' a game to JD, placing a CC after scouting an early pool... once again his mechanics fails him as he loses.
Fighting Spirit - This was one of the very very FEW games where I felt it was truly standard... and Flash lost. This was one of the games where I felt Flash didn't have a pre-prepared plan (he says so in his interview), and loses the game.
I'm not going to look into any more games for fear of boring you guys, but I feel that Flash has been on this streak in lage part due to (1)map imbalances (2)pre-prepared 1-time-use specialized builds (3) a decent amount of luck (Ie not getting the builds scouted).
After this post, I know its hard to believe, but I AM a Flash fan, but I feel bad for the JD fans out there, and personally believe that despite all the Bonjwa talk, Jaedong is by no means out of the picture. If some more balanced maps were introduced, and Jaedong wipes these memories from his brain, he has all the tools he needs to compete head to head with Flash.
Once again, sorry for the long post, but please tell me whether Flash has really reached an untouchable state or has this just been a long run of luck and pre-prepped specialized builds?
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yes hes been lucky for one year going to 6 finals. Win winners league. win PL grand finals and is a PL MVP
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Flash isn't INVINCIBLE - Starcraft is too variable a game for anyone to win everything forever. What he is is the best progamer. He's not going to win every bo5 much less every bo3 much less every game - maybe fantasy picks a different build and wins their recent series - but he ought to have the highest winrate out of all progamers over a long period of time.
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Yes, he is. Flash would've been bonjwa a long time ago if it weren't for the existence of Jaedong, and similarly Jaedong would have been bonjwa (imo) if not for the existence of Flash. They are so far ahead of the competition at this point, and now Flash has Jaedong's number. I don't think it matters what opening they each go for, especially given Flash's play in the last game of the finals. He just completely shut JD down and that's what he's been doing in their mid-late games lately.
He knows how he plays and he knows how to shut it down. I don't think Jaedong has had more than 2 successfully saturated bases vs Flash in any of the recent games and that's what (I believe) messes him up.
FWIW I'm a Jaedong fan, but it's clear even to me that Flash has his number right now, and I would agree that Flash is bonjwa.
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Thank you for articulating how I've been feeling with all the JvF finals! There really havent been that many standard games with these two players in a grand finals. (unless 14cc v 12hatch is standard?TT)
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On September 14 2010 09:39 andeh wrote:
Thank you for articulating how I've been feeling with all the JvF finals! There really havent been that many standard games with these two players in a grand finals. (unless 14cc v 12hatch is standard?TT)
More like 14cc v 3 hatch before pool
mmmmm
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Not invincible! i still feel Jaedong is the better player  but we will see -.-
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There's no such thing as invincible in SC. But Flash is a small step above JD, a medium step above Fantasy, and a huge step above everyone else. That's as good as it gets in BW.
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Even though Flash has been on a roll in finals recently with Jaedong, it's never a series of one sided games. The two are always entertaining to watch, and it's not all about one or the other. I've been watching Brood War for a long time, and I have to say this is the most even, healthy, entertaining match up of any of the top players in the game's history.
Although I wish there was also a Protoss on their level to make it a cool trifecta of awesome
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Well this is what I feel of Flash's play. If he fail at cheesing or do a timing push, he'll go just like sitting there squeezing as much unit as he possibly can to defend with the bases and then when the opponents tries to break the defence, he'll just defend to the best of his ability (the mass turrets guyz vs ZerO guys?) and if he feel that the opponents have gotten tired or like is only focussing on attacking he'll do a a multiple front attack (the game vs Kal where Kal lost like 3 expo at the same time?) to win. What Jaedong is doing is going for TOO straight up play or shall I say predictable play against Flash, yeah he did 4-pool against Flash but Flash also knew it was coming (Come on, of course Flash would think that Jaedong will try to do some aggressive build). If JD and Flash plays at the absolute top level, I feel that Jaedong will take that one (even Flash said that JD is better at raw talent). What you need if someone who is able to "fake" flash like Effort did versus Flash at the MSL and Snow did at PL (or was it WL?). When EVERYONE in the business fear you, of course you have a massive advantage over them. This is what I call momentum, even the best players in the world would lose if his confidence is shattered.
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Not really invincible, just too damn good.
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Flash is invincible in the current era, on the current battlefields (maps).
We will see if he would maintain this streak in the next season (probably, since the maps for the next season will still follow the same format as the last 2 seasons) they can add some features to favor Zerg but it won't matter because his turtle style (I mean no disrespect, it's a good and valid style) is so perfect that attacking him is impossible in a ground-based map.
+ Show Spoiler +
They really need to add one air-based map to balance out the odds (and to give Protoss a super edge ^^, just look at the 02-03 years with island maps in the pool Protoss just dominated lol).
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10387 Posts
Off-season is when things change (like this last one, Bisu's slump, Flash's godmode), so most likely we'll see a shift in the power structure when games start again. I'm gunning for Flash to hit a massive slump
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Canada2480 Posts
nice analysis and good first topic
I remember my first topic being a Bonjwa thread :facepalm:
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On September 14 2010 09:50 Xiphos wrote:
Well this is what I feel of Flash's play. If he fail at cheesing or do a timing push, he'll go just like sitting there squeezing as much unit as he possibly can to defend with the bases and then when the opponents tries to break the defence, he'll just defend to the best of his ability (the mass turrets guyz vs ZerO guys?) and if he feel that the opponents have gotten tired or like is only focussing on attacking he'll do a a multiple front attack (the game vs Kal where Kal lost like 3 expo at the same time?) to win. What Jaedong is doing is going for TOO straight up play or shall I say predictable play against Flash, yeah he did 4-pool against Flash but Flash also knew it was coming (Come on, of course Flash would think that Jaedong will try to do some aggressive build). If JD and Flash plays at the absolute top level, I feel that Jaedong will take that one (even Flash said that JD is better at raw talent). What you need if someone who is able to "fake" flash like Effort did versus Flash at the MSL and Snow did at PL (or was it WL?). When EVERYONE in the business fear you, of course you have a massive advantage over them. This is what I call momentum, even the best players in the world would lose if his confidence is shattered.
Did you see how agreesive flash was vs jd?
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I'd really wait to see how the World Stage gets played. I'm sure everyone is expecting another JvF finals to occur. Just a few weeks off
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Flash is really really invincible.
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On September 14 2010 10:12 ArvickHero wrote:
Off-season is when things change (like this last one, Bisu's slump, Flash's godmode), so most likely we'll see a shift in the power structure when games start again. I'm gunning for Flash to hit a massive slump
It would seem that once someone arrives at the peak, in this case bonjwa status, they would have nowhere else to go but down. Though, I don't believe Flash will hit a major slump just yet. He's still quite young and his mental fortitude over the past several months has been nothing but spectacular.
Now that he has time to finally rest and relax, once we get back into the thick of things when Proleague rolls around, he'll just get back into his rhythm. You can't really say the same for Jaedong though. Flash has his number now, and I think Jaedong will become even more desperate to beat him.
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EPT
