EPTIs Flash really invincible? - Page 9
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
On September 15 2010 10:22 moopie wrote: I'd say Skyhigh is (was) a better TvT player (he's pretty terrible in the other matchups though). Hard to do a recent comparison these days since he never advances in leagues. But yeah, the other players listed (fanta/hiya/leta/light/sea/fbh/upmagic/baby/mind) don't come close to beating flash. Fanta vs Flash was not a close series? Baby didn't completely dominate Flash in PL? Some of those players have beaten flash, or have been very close, even in series. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On September 15 2010 10:39 Murderotica wrote: Fanta vs Flash was not a close series? Baby didn't completely dominate Flash in PL? Some of those players have beaten flash, or have been very close, even in series. Re-read the post chain I replied to. This isn't discussing a strong series vs flash, this is about their matchup comparisons. Fanta TvP vs Flash TvP. And no, Baby doesn't hold a candle to flash these days, rainbow socks or not. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines559 Posts
obviously jk, but at least now they're even in terms of OSL wins to compete for platinum. and i'm pretty sure they will BOTH get platinum mouse before they quit, maybe one or both will even get diamond | ||
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omgbbq2
Canada169 Posts
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G3nXsiS
United States656 Posts
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MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
On September 15 2010 10:16 GolemMadness wrote: ...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up. Not what I wanted to say, brother. I meant that their strength, their specialty did not lay in tvt, but in other areas, whereas Flash's strongest, most confident matchup is his tvt. That does not exclude Flash being better in tvp or tvz than these other players. The other tvt specialists are also not stronger than Flash in tvt, for the reasons I mentioned before. If Skyhigh, for example, would be as fit and as confident as Flash is now, I'd say that they'd be about equally skilled in tvt and a match between them would be really close. However, I think that Fantasy, as he is now, about equally fit and confident as Flash, will probably lose to him, as Fantasy lacks the confidence in the matchup that Flash does have. On the other hand, if a strong Snow or a confident Stork shows up, I'll bet that Fantasy will have a better chance of beating them than Flash, as his specialty is tvp. | ||
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MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
On September 15 2010 10:22 moopie wrote: I'd say Skyhigh is (was) a better TvT player (he's pretty terrible in the other matchups though). Hard to do a recent comparison these days since he never advances in leagues. B ut yeah, the other players listed (fanta/hiya/leta/light/sea/fbh/upmagic/baby/mind) don't come close to beating flash at their top respective MUs. If I may be so bold as to jump in here, Flash himself has mentioned that he feared and look forward to playing tvt versus FBH and Upmagic the most. Besides that, Baby has beat him in the past, and Sea is consistently sent out to battle Flash by MBC. Mind has been slumping for a long time now and it is difficult to see him defeat anyone these days, but he was once a really good player with a killer tvt. You could add Iris and Canata to this list as well, though they are definitely past their peak. Point is however, not to argue that these players are at this moment, better in any match-up than Flash, but that they'll lose to Flash in a tvt for the reasons mentioned. EDIT: Sorry for double post :\ | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
On September 14 2010 10:12 ArvickHero wrote: Off-season is when things change (like this last one, Bisu's slump, Flash's godmode), so most likely we'll see a shift in the power structure when games start again. I'm gunning for Flash to hit a massive slump YEAH!!!!!!!!!! Haha I absolutely love your signature | ||
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
On September 15 2010 20:15 MisteR wrote: Not what I wanted to say, brother. I meant that their strength, their specialty did not lay in tvt, but in other areas, whereas Flash's strongest, most confident matchup is his tvt. That does not exclude Flash being better in tvp or tvz than these other players. The other tvt specialists are also not stronger than Flash in tvt, for the reasons I mentioned before. If Skyhigh, for example, would be as fit and as confident as Flash is now, I'd say that they'd be about equally skilled in tvt and a match between them would be really close. However, I think that Fantasy, as he is now, about equally fit and confident as Flash, will probably lose to him, as Fantasy lacks the confidence in the matchup that Flash does have. On the other hand, if a strong Snow or a confident Stork shows up, I'll bet that Fantasy will have a better chance of beating them than Flash, as his specialty is tvp. Disagree. Flash has the best vP of all Terrans ever, Fantasy's doesn't even come close. In fact many consider TvP to be his best matchup in spite his claims that it's the matchup he's the least confident in. I'd go as far as to say that no protoss stands a chance in a bo5 against Flash right now. Not even Snow, though in time to come he may have the potential to. You can't say Flash is a specialist either, when you consider that other than his TvT and TvP, his TvZ also outclasses all of the other Terrans except maybe Light's. He's the most complete player BW has ever witnessed. Calling him a TvT specialist because he has the highest win % in that matchup isn't appropriate. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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etch
Canada176 Posts
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CoWsGoesMoo
250 Posts
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ArbAttack
Canada198 Posts
On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote: in a completely standard game (1rax CC vs. 12Hatch --> zerg getting his third gas up-->lategame ultra/defiler play), Jaedong will still beat Flash Stopped reading right there, can you scream Jaedong fanboy harder please. Slim chance but if you read this before you read OP, I suggest you stop too. | ||
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Delerium
United States324 Posts
you don't debate a bonjwa, a bonjwa just is. if someone completely dominates everyone for a long period of time, they're a bonjwa; that's what it means. there wasn't a bonjwa since savior because the scene was too competitive, the average level of play was too high for anyone to exceed it by enough to become a bonjwa. jaedong and flash exceeded that level of play for a long time, but at the same time, so they were, alternately: both bonjwas, or neither was (because of the other). flash is leading the leessang-rok at the moment, and he's done it for long enough this year that a lot of fans are willing to call him a bonjwa now, or they feel strongly that he deserves it (or they're sentimental about the 10 year OSL anniversary) it all depends on how you define it. does a bonjwa have to dominate for a year? two years? does it matter if all the other progamers are bad, like ten years ago? that's why I think "god" tier is better. nobody is dominating these days like the old bonjwas did. these new players are better than bonjwas. bonjwas are washed up scrubs these days compared to god tier, compared to the new S class. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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iSiN
United States1075 Posts
On September 15 2010 21:40 POWEROUTAGE wrote: Disagree. Flash has the best vP of all Terrans ever, Fantasy's doesn't even come close. In fact many consider TvP to be his best matchup in spite his claims that it's the matchup he's the least confident in. I'd go as far as to say that no protoss stands a chance in a bo5 against Flash right now. Not even Snow, though in time to come he may have the potential to. You can't say Flash is a specialist either, when you consider that other than his TvT and TvP, his TvZ also outclasses all of the other Terrans except maybe Light's. He's the most complete player BW has ever witnessed. Calling him a TvT specialist because he has the highest win % in that matchup isn't appropriate. Kang Min(out of his prime) beat him. That is all | ||
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bluetrolls
United States139 Posts
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malathion
United States361 Posts
On September 16 2010 02:38 ArbAttack wrote: Stopped reading right there, can you scream Jaedong fanboy harder please. Slim chance but if you read this before you read OP, I suggest you stop too. Yeah I really don't get this either. The reason Flash won games 1 and 4 is because he so expertly kept Jaedong on 2 base: even while getting doom dropped in his main, he had the presence of mind to load up a drop ship to patrol around for Jaedong's inevitable timing expansion, something few star players could manage. So what the OP is saying, as I read it is: If Terran does a passive opening and everything goes right for Zerg in the midgame, Jaedong would win. Wtf? The whole point of the Terran midgame is to wreck the Zerg economy, and Flash accomplished that repeatedly in these games. After the MSL people complained that Jaedong was letting Flash get away with economically greedy builds. In the OSL, Flash did a 4-rax aggression build and a 5-rax every time Jaedong didn't 4 pool, and won 3-1, so now they are complaining that the games don't count because it's not "standard". I'm glad to see that the debate is finally tipping here because in my opinion Flash was bonjwa a long time ago, but it's also disappointing to see people tying themselves up in knots trying to rationalize how he still isn't even though there is literally nothing he hasn't achieved in the past year and a half. He's not invincible and he'll eventually burn out if BW doesn't burn out first, but right now, he's absolutely the king. | ||
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Piste
6177 Posts
On September 15 2010 09:07 krndandaman wrote: bio is not easy for us zergs? are you joking? mech is easy for us these days, it's the fucking bio-> mech switch that combines the worst of both worlds for us. bio in early game is fucking strong mech in late game is fucking strong combine the two and what do you get? fucking strong terran dont get me wrong tho, i dont think tvz is imba lol so you're saying both bio and mech are easy but bio to mech transfer is hard? yeah I think so too. + Show Spoiler [in case you wrote " not "…] + well, i shouldn't have included the word "easy". but I have no idea why are you saying "fucking strong terran" if you don't think it's imba. or do you mean that both zerg and terran is "fucking strong"? | ||
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