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On September 16 2010 01:32 etch wrote:
i dont think he's saying fantasy has better TvP than flash. i think he's saying if there was a flash-like protoss right now fantasy would have a better chance against the protoss than he would against flash.
Except that wouldn't make sense either, as Flash flat out has better TvP anyway.
On September 16 2010 03:06 iSiN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 21:40 POWEROUTAGE wrote:On September 15 2010 20:15 MisteR wrote:On September 15 2010 10:16 GolemMadness wrote:On September 15 2010 00:38 MisteR wrote:The previous mentioned terrans all are stronger in different match-ups (Fanta and Hiya tvp, Light, Sea, and Leta tvz) while the other tvt specialists like Skyhigh, FBH, Upmagic, Baby or Mind are either slumping, retired, or too young. Fantasy lost in a close bo5 to Flash, while Light lost to Jaedong. At the moment Flash seems to be without terran rival, but that has more to do with Flash being a tvt specialist than anything else. ...What are you talking about? None of those players are better than Flash in any match up. Not what I wanted to say, brother. I meant that their strength, their specialty did not lay in tvt, but in other areas, whereas Flash's strongest, most confident matchup is his tvt. That does not exclude Flash being better in tvp or tvz than these other players. The other tvt specialists are also not stronger than Flash in tvt, for the reasons I mentioned before. If Skyhigh, for example, would be as fit and as confident as Flash is now, I'd say that they'd be about equally skilled in tvt and a match between them would be really close. However, I think that Fantasy, as he is now, about equally fit and confident as Flash, will probably lose to him, as Fantasy lacks the confidence in the matchup that Flash does have. On the other hand, if a strong Snow or a confident Stork shows up, I'll bet that Fantasy will have a better chance of beating them than Flash, as his specialty is tvp. Disagree. Flash has the best vP of all Terrans ever, Fantasy's doesn't even come close. In fact many consider TvP to be his best matchup in spite his claims that it's the matchup he's the least confident in. I'd go as far as to say that no protoss stands a chance in a bo5 against Flash right now. Not even Snow, though in time to come he may have the potential to. You can't say Flash is a specialist either, when you consider that other than his TvT and TvP, his TvZ also outclasses all of the other Terrans except maybe Light's. He's the most complete player BW has ever witnessed. Calling him a TvT specialist because he has the highest win % in that matchup isn't appropriate. Kang Min(out of his prime) beat him. That is all
Ah, that's only because Kang Min is a complete baller. We know what happened after that customary game though 
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Vatican City State431 Posts
On September 15 2010 21:50 Holgerius wrote:
How the fuck could anyone argue that Fantasy has better (or as good) TvP as Flash? Flash is 100 ELO points ahead in TvP, has almost 10 % higher winrate and still he's playing Bo5's vs the some of the best players in the game in Starleague semi-finals whereas Fantasy hasn't played a Bo5 vs a Toss since forever. Seriously, how the fuck?
Yeah! Didnt Fantasy get his ass kicked in OSL in a group with 3 protoss? lol
Also you can't say that Light has a better TvZ because he failed to beat Jaedong...
Flash has around 75% winratio vAll in the last year and this is as close as you'll get to invincibility in professional SC.
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Invincibility is never forever for any sport/games. Everyone gets old or loses focus after a period of time, Flash will drop a game now and then stop his dominance after a while. Flash is miles ahead of other pro-gamers right now in terms of confidence and maintaining a strong mentality, he might dominant for long time still at this rate.
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I doubt he's invincible. I'd have to stab him or poison him to be sure though.
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Well I think FlaSh will eventually fall, just as every player who once appeared invincible and flawless before him. However, with SC2 gaining popularity, I don't know if FlaSh's era will end before the BW scene itself.
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On September 17 2010 15:18 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:
Well I think FlaSh will eventually fall, just as every player who once appeared invincible and flawless before him. However, with SC2 gaining popularity, I don't know if FlaSh's era will end before the BW scene itself.
I believe that BW scene is in better shape than SC2 scene at the moment, so please don't make too far fetched predictions...
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I partially agree with what the OP is saying, but overall Flash does have a much better grasp of the game than you give him credit for. Jaedong can't just rely on pure mechanical play to overcome Flash. Ultimately it'll take some more interesting play on JD's part to overcome Flash's game sense.
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On September 15 2010 06:46 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 06:26 nimoraca wrote:
What you call the most standard TvZ game is exactly what terrans are trying hard to avoid. When defilers come out, they make 95% of terran army obsolete. Combine that with plague and consume and you get the most imbalanced unit in the game. And when terrans use the only unit that is somewhat effective against the dark swarm (yes, its the tank) you call that gay play or turtling. Do you just expect all terrans to go bio against the dark swarm, and when they lose say that zerg player is mechanically better.
The whole point of TvZ for terrans is to not let zergs get to defilers easily, with 3 or more gasses, because it becomes almost impossible to win if that happens. You can not just call that scenario a standard game and say Jaedong would win in a standard game. Probably if you look at the statistics of those "standrad" TvZ games you would see that most of them are won by zerg players.
Also, MSL game 3, Flash played brilliantly for most of the game. He denied Jaedongs third for such a long time. The only mistake he made was letting Jaedong expand easily in the bottom right corner, when he had no army to defend it. If you look carefully the first game of the OSL you will see that jaedong again tried to sneak an expansion in the bottom-right, but now Flash was prepared, and denied that, winning the game easily.
Generally speaking in the last 3 finals, all the games jaedong won against flash, he was extremely lucky. It could have easily be 3:0 in the last MSL. Yeah. It should have been 9:0 for Flash, that would show the real difference between them. All this luck with the opening builds, all that luck that even Flash sometimes messes up, all this fucking luck Jaedong had in these three series. I'm pretty sure he is still quite happy. Remember game 4 OSL where the Defiler that Jaedong dropped in Flashs main made 95% of Flashs army obsolete and therefore brought Jaedong to game 5? Yeah, me too. Those 5% rest-army stood no chance against those ~24lings and ~6 lurkers. Yeah, I wrote what I had to say on the last page. More isn't probably good for my blood pressure.
You got the point wrong. If you read my post carefully you will see that I said "The whole point of TvZ for terrans is to not let zergs get to defilers easily, with 3 or more gasses". In that game Flash did just that. He delayed defilers as much as possible (he had irradiate when first defiler popped out), he denied Jeadongs third. So that's why he won.
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He has a huge edge over Jaedong and other top players now because of his 'aura'. The other player is not in the mind state to beat him. Jaedong is too nervous and desperate against flash that he can't play as well as he should and seems to make terrible micro mistakes. Flash just shuts him out.
Maybe one positive thing about Bisu's slump is that he hasn't vsed Flash in any meaningful games since Flash started dominating. If he does return to his top form he won't have to get over any mental scars when vsing Flash like Jaedong will have to.
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On September 17 2010 22:38 crazeh wrote:
He has a huge edge over Jaedong and other top players now because of his 'aura'. The other player is not in the mind state to beat him. Jaedong is too nervous and desperate against flash that he can't play as well as he should and seems to make terrible micro mistakes. Flash just shuts him out.
Maybe one positive thing about Bisu's slump is that he hasn't vsed Flash in any meaningful games since Flash started dominating. If he does return to his top form he won't have to get over any mental scars when vsing Flash like Jaedong will have to.
true dat, but i think tvp has more innate stability than tvz. tvz is a very volatile matchup for both sides, while tvp offers less potential for the worse player to take off a game from the superior opponent. and bisus pvt was never good, he just somehow was always playing well against flash. but i wouldnt rely too heavily on this pattern. jd also always seemed ahead of flash until he got his ass kicked 3 times in a row...
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On September 14 2010 16:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote:
Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all. Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with. Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more.
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On September 23 2010 05:00 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 16:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote:
Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all. Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with. Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more.
Flash has been the most aggressive terran since october. He borders on hyper aggressiveness. Just because he opens up economically doesn't mean he isn't aggressive.
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On September 14 2010 09:36 stafu wrote:
Yes, he is. Flash would've been bonjwa a long time ago if it weren't for the existence of Jaedong, and similarly Jaedong would have been bonjwa (imo) if not for the existence of Flash. They are so far ahead of the competition at this point, and now Flash has Jaedong's number. I don't think it matters what opening they each go for, especially given Flash's play in the last game of the finals. He just completely shut JD down and that's what he's been doing in their mid-late games lately.
He knows how he plays and he knows how to shut it down. I don't think Jaedong has had more than 2 successfully saturated bases vs Flash in any of the recent games and that's what (I believe) messes him up.
FWIW I'm a Jaedong fan, but it's clear even to me that Flash has his number right now, and I would agree that Flash is bonjwa.
i find it hard to believe you consider jaedong a bonjwa when bisu was on top of his game
yeah bisu has been slumping but hed still beat jaedong in a bo5 even now
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United States10361 Posts
if jaedong wasnt around, flash would already have CRUSHED the record and be holding both platinum leagues (5 wins) on both hands... probably like a diamond thingy too (like 7 wins idk?) INVINCIBLE MAN
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On September 23 2010 05:53 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:00 figq wrote:On September 14 2010 16:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote:
Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all. Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with. Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more. Flash has been the most aggressive terran since october. He borders on hyper aggressiveness. Just because he opens up economically doesn't mean he isn't aggressive. Okay, he's Boxer.
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On September 23 2010 06:42 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 05:53 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 23 2010 05:00 figq wrote:On September 14 2010 16:19 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 14 2010 16:02 figq wrote:
Bonjwas aren't invincible. And even for the most invincible there's always power shutdown and chicken-pox. Flash has done a great job in BW vs great players, so he is great too. I don't appreciate his style much, I wish he could pull off convincing wins with many more different styles, but he won them all. Name one style that Flash hasn't won with, nay, dominated with. Poor wording on my part, I made it sound like he can't win otherwise. He can win with various styles, but he mostly plays defensively. A matter of taste here, nothing more. Flash has been the most aggressive terran since october. He borders on hyper aggressiveness. Just because he opens up economically doesn't mean he isn't aggressive. Okay, he's Boxer.
He's good, but no one is Boxer except for Boxer - and there will never be another Boxer who will bring so much to the stage.
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Flash only seems invisible due to terran favored map. We've seen how effective flash's turtle style is. Even when he's on the verge of losing he turtles his way out. If map pool changes to favor another race and he was still dominating thats when we should consider flash invisible as of now not really.
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So long as we don't call maps terran-favored just because Flash wins on them.
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On September 23 2010 08:05 BreakerD wrote:
Flash only seems invisible due to terran favored map. We've seen how effective flash's turtle style is. Even when he's on the verge of losing he turtles his way out. If map pool changes to favor another race and he was still dominating thats when we should consider flash invisible as of now not really.
Well tbh its really Jaedong who got nervous (I think he is somewhat depressed). Flash mindfucked him pretty bad. I still stand on my arguement of Flash being invincible to anyone BUT Stork 
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EPT
