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On September 14 2010 11:31 Animostas wrote:
What also makes Flash difficult to beat is that although he's so well-known for his 2base 2Armory push, he still mixes it up with bunker rushes, proxy raxes, etc., thereby making him basically unpredictable.
MSL/OSL finals aside, Flash is actually one of the most predictable progamers around. Flash has been known to pick an opening he likes and perfect it, and still people have issues dealing with him.
Flash's top weakness is his earlygame. You gamble a cheesy opening, you might catch him offguard. Not many people can macro up against him.
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yes every player will have their peak and fade away. but in Flash's case, I think he will fade much later than other big names he will stay more on his peak place.
(I'm a JD fan)
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being bonjwa means he's almost invicible, thats why he have a 80% win rate
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On September 14 2010 09:43 nttea wrote:Not invincible! i still feel Jaedong is the better player  but we will see -.-
Agreed. Plus JD play is more fun to watch for me.
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I don't see jaedong coming back to dominate Flash for a whole year, as he did in 09 and as Flash has in 2010. Jaedong is significantly older than Flash (at least as far as sc is concerned). I think he'll be around till the end, playing top games and continuing his own dominance, but I think he's past that young peak where he can smash everybody. And frankly, Flash isn't. He's still very young, his mechanics are superb and he has the mental stamina to boot. He practices his heart out, he is resilient, unshakable on the big stage, and he is ultra intelligent. If Jaedong was the same age, I'd still say it was anyone's game.
But the only way I see Flash dipping now is by his own choice. If he wants to remain at number 1, I think it'll be nigh impossible to shake him from that place. If he switched to sc2 or wanted to retire, then sure. But I doubt he'd do either till he'd squeezed every last bit out of sc:bw and I don't see him leaving before anyone else to sc2.
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No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
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On September 14 2010 09:27 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Fighting Spirit - This was one of the very very FEW games where I felt it was truly standard... and Flash lost. This was one of the games where I felt Flash didn't have a pre-prepared plan (he says so in his interview), and loses the game.
He lost that game because he didn't scout bottom right going up in a situation where he had map control. While it is a mistake, I don't think it's necessarily indicative that his overall micro/macro/multitask/sense is worse than Jaedong's.
I'm not saying that Flash is better in textbook standard games, but I think it's pretty close and that one game is a small sample size.
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On September 14 2010 12:34 iSiN wrote:
No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
Their last 3 finals are 3-0 flash. And no, the WCG Korea aren't more important to them than WCG Grand Finals. The WCG korea was meaningless for 1st/2nd place (they both even said as much), since they both go anyway. It was 3rd and 4th place that really mattered which is why it occured afterwards. In the WCG grand finals, they will both strive to win as their country's representatives.
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Dude, WCG was completely meaningless since both were already qualifiied for the Grand Final.
''After advancing to the finals yesterday, I had already earned the right to represent Korea at the WCG Grand Finals, so to tell the truth I actually didn’t care too much whether I won or lost today.''
JD himself said it straight out. Compare that to him saying he was going to practise as if his life depended on it for the OSL final. And Flash said he pretty much didn't practise at all. So they are 3-0 in the last BoX encounters that mattered.
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On September 14 2010 12:34 iSiN wrote:
No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
Er no it's not more important than the WCG Grand Final, it determines nothing in the WCG (since both players go to LA regardless) and there is no prize money at stake.
Also if you recall in the last 4 meetings it's 1-3 for Flash, and over the course of those 4 meetings the record was 4-11 for Flash...
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5930 Posts
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
[citation needed]
There isn't anything to get out of winning WCG Korea. The only thing I am certain that they care about is making sure that Korea get 1st, 2nd, 3rd and they're even willing to purposely throw games to adjust the brackets.
Flash didn't seem particularly bothered losing the third game of WCG. He seemed to find it quite amusing, even took the effort to type a funny message to Jaedong.
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MSL semis prove it's not a 2 man game yet.
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On September 14 2010 12:34 iSiN wrote:
No he isn't. You can't even say that flash has JD's number. If I recall in the last 3 meetings In a tournament final it's 1-2 for Flash. IT DOESN'T GET CLOSER THAN THAT. FlashDong is bonjwa. Flash isn't Invincible but it's pretty cool to see him win 2 star leagues in a season. Makes me sad that his 5 rax didn't make him insta lose the game like 5 pool does to zerg though.
Edit: And for those of you that say WCG Korea Finals don't matter. It's more important than the WCG Grand Final so you know they cared about those matches too.
Seriously, people who keep trying to argue for Jaedong being a co-bonjwa right now are just making themselves sound stupid. Remember that temp ban handed out to Lightwip a few days ago? I'm beginning to think TL should just temp ban all of the people who keep arguing that Flash and JD are still co-bonjwas right now. Yeah, they're just dragging out the debate, painfully and slowly...
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United States10774 Posts
On September 14 2010 12:09 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 09:43 nttea wrote:Not invincible! i still feel Jaedong is the better player but we will see -.- Agreed. Plus JD play is more fun to watch for me.
hahaha this is a bit absurd, considering flash has beaten jaedong in last three finals. "they didn't play standard games" is a ridiculous reasoning, because starcraft is not just about making buildings and units. especially in a series where both players prepare for a long time. it's adaptability, game sense, creativity, mind game, and a ton of other factors.
honestly, if you had to lay down 100K dollars on who would win, I'd imagine over 90% people would pick flash at this point. for me, what separates him from jaedong is his game sense. yes jaedong's is great as well but nobody is on flash's level. commentators talked about this too. he reads his opponents too damn well and his decisions are simply impeccable most of the time. his macro is clearly unbelievable but he mixes up his plays depending on his guts. these qualities, along with many other things, make him the greatest starcraft player ever.
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On September 14 2010 11:31 Animostas wrote:
In Starcraft, skill isn't everything. Luck still plays a very important factor. If you're a Terran just think of the number of times you scouted a Protoss last and sees that he went for a 12Nexus, even though you have say, the perfect bunker rush that you could have used if you scouted him first or second.
I think that to beat Flash, you just need a build order advantage, and seriously abuse that whenever you get that chance. What also makes Flash difficult to beat is that although he's so well-known for his 2base 2Armory push, he still mixes it up with bunker rushes, proxy raxes, etc., thereby making him basically unpredictable.
2 base 2 armory push is so 3 years ago 
Anyways, to answer your question. NO, Flash is not invincible. There is no such thing as an invincible player in starcraft. He is just right now the BEST PLAYER in the world and is a favorite against anyone.
Invincible would mean 100% winrate but even still he only has around 85% win rate which is amazing but not invincible. But I guess you can say that he is invincible in a box right now.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 14 2010 12:55 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 12:09 GreEny K wrote:On September 14 2010 09:43 nttea wrote:Not invincible! i still feel Jaedong is the better player but we will see -.- Agreed. Plus JD play is more fun to watch for me. hahaha this is a bit absurd, considering flash has beaten jaedong in last three finals. "they didn't play standard games" is a ridiculous reasoning, because starcraft is not just about making buildings and units. especially in a series where both players prepare for a long time. it's adaptability, game sense, creativity, mind game, and a ton of other factors. honestly, if you had to lay down 100K dollars on who would win, I'd imagine over 90% people would pick flash at this point. for me, what separates him from jaedong is his game sense. yes jaedong's is great as well but nobody is on flash's level. commentators talked about this too. he reads his opponents too damn well and his decisions are simply impeccable most of the time. his macro is clearly unbelievable but he mixes up his plays depending on his guts. these qualities, along with many other things, make him the greatest starcraft player ever.
Remember that game against Calm I think where he didn't even scout his opponent but still built bunkers against a lurker all-in. That is just how imba Flash's game sense is. :X
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we thought a lot of player were invincible until they meet the next generation of player that eventually will surpass them.
FlaSh might be near godly at the time being but it won't be forever because he will age too just like BoxeR , NaDa , Oov
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On September 14 2010 12:49 l0st_romantic wrote:
Er no it's not more important than the WCG Grand Final, it determines nothing in the WCG (since both players go to LA regardless) and there is no prize money at stake.
On September 14 2010 12:52 Womwomwom wrote:
There isn't anything to get out of winning WCG Korea.
I do have to correct you guys there, there is prize money involved but its very low considering.
1st place in WCG Korea is 5M₩ (~$4,300)
2nd place iirc is 3M₩ (~$2,600)
3rd place is 1M₩ (~$860).
So the difference in the WCG Korea 1st/2nd place is only about $1,700 and considering these guys' saleries and actual league winnings, I don't think the prize pool really motivated either of them.
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FLASH WILL NOT BE STOPPED. One thing to consider about players who've dominated in the past (Iloveoov, Savior, Boxer, etc) is that they all did it when they were around 20. Flash only just turned 18 a couple months ago. There is still a ton more that he can do.
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On September 14 2010 13:01 Nemesis wrote:
Remember that game against Calm I think where he didn't even scout his opponent but still built bunkers against a lurker all-in. That is just how imba Flash's game sense is. :X
I was thinking about that specific game just hours ago. How the fuck did he know that lurkers were incoming in that game?
Seriously, sometimes I wonder if Flash has discovered some way of ''ear-hacking'' or similar. It's just ridiculous how smart he is.
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I'd say the closeness of their standard games indicates that they are still really close in skill level. I always thought that JD was ahead of flash in the mind games too, before the Hana Daetoo MSL that is.
maybe im just too blinded by fanboyism but I kinda think the maps have had a lot to do with it (it always meant that the onus was on Jaedong to come up with some build to win on the map while flash had way more options and completely dictated almost every map). With maps like triathalon, odd-eye, polaris rhapsody, and grand line all being played I feel like flash had it way too easy picking builds for each series compared to JD.
the way I see it, JD still convincingly crushed flash on fighting spirit and in the WCG. flash definitely out-mind gamed JD in the past month, but consistently JD has ALWAYS found a way to get back on top (flash once beat JD in the mind games back in 08 but then JD came back on top before falling again recently) mentally. I can't wait for the next season. no one holds a grudge better than Jaedong, just ask  Tyson lol
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EPT
