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On January 08 2010 16:40 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2010 16:37 sassme wrote:On January 08 2010 16:32 numLoCK wrote:
ZZang. Or someone else.
Showmatch him?
I mean, I haven't watched the reps, but based on what you guys are saying his builds are fucking retarded. If the guy gets B+ with retarded ass builds then he must be doing something right. So he can keep talking about his old reps or past achievements, but I'd love to see some actual games.
this i know it might come off as a dick measuring contest but everyone would love to see this if machinehead doesnt mind it a lot and since he has some spare time id love to see him play either of those guys, bo5 or so somehow i expect some shitty excuse from "zzangdreamjoy" I'll play him. It doesn't matter. If he wins or loses, it's a null/void situation. It doesn't mean he'll be a godo teacher or anything. His style will get you to a certain rank, and that's it. You'll never be a good/great player. I realized that. I think it's about time he does too.
so the only good players in starcraft are those terrans who sit on 4 bases, wait for 200/200 3-3 and then attack, cuz that's standard and common nowadays and wat teh 500 apmz pr0gamerz do rite!!11 Or zergs who go 3 hatch spire, into 5 hatch hydra, into muta sniping templars, into lurker contain, into 4 gases ultra ling into doom drop win... those are teh gosus!
Seriously? You guys want him to go B+ playing the same crap every single game? -___-!!
All this whole macro standar shit is getting out of proportions... if any player does something different from this macro shit he automatically becomes a: fucking skilless lucky shitty newbie with no mechanics (PRO MECHANICS 300 EAPM LULZ!!)
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machinehead, your problem is not understanding that we're talking talking about OTHER peoples money. Do they want to pay you so that they 'probably' will get DECENT or better advice? When we're talking about money people want to know that what they get is good.
They have no idea what your teaching skills are. They don't even have a verification how good you are. Perhaps you beat mondragon or JF, but so what? Obviously you're not a BAD player, but it doesn't prove that you're good enough to teach either. People don't know you, and you're incapable of proving it except in a few replays you post.
I beat Cloud 2-0 in a NW 4-5 years ago, I've beaten JF etc. Does it make me qualified to teach someone, and now people would pay me should feel really fuzzy inside that they're getting good advice? no..
You got to post actual proof and show that you're a capable teacher for people to believe you. Perhaps offer to give the first lesson for FREE, and then if they feel good about it, like they should if we're to believe you, they may go for more. The only problem with that is that people think that you're a dick because of how you've posted in this thread, but you should give it a try regardless.
Don't expect people to be sure of your skills just because you beat a few known players.
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On January 08 2010 16:51 El Resplandor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2010 16:40 ZZangDreamjOy wrote:On January 08 2010 16:37 sassme wrote:On January 08 2010 16:32 numLoCK wrote:
ZZang. Or someone else.
Showmatch him?
I mean, I haven't watched the reps, but based on what you guys are saying his builds are fucking retarded. If the guy gets B+ with retarded ass builds then he must be doing something right. So he can keep talking about his old reps or past achievements, but I'd love to see some actual games.
this i know it might come off as a dick measuring contest but everyone would love to see this if machinehead doesnt mind it a lot and since he has some spare time id love to see him play either of those guys, bo5 or so somehow i expect some shitty excuse from "zzangdreamjoy" I'll play him. It doesn't matter. If he wins or loses, it's a null/void situation. It doesn't mean he'll be a godo teacher or anything. His style will get you to a certain rank, and that's it. You'll never be a good/great player. I realized that. I think it's about time he does too. so the only good players in starcraft are those terrans who sit on 4 bases, wait for 200/200 3-3 and then attack, cuz that's standard and common nowadays and wat teh 500 apmz pr0gamerz do rite!!11 Or zergs who go 3 hatch spire, into 5 hatch hydra, into muta sniping templars, into lurker contain, into 4 gases ultra ling into doom drop win... those are teh gosus! Seriously? You guys want him to go B+ playing the same crap every single game? -___-!! All this whole macro standar shit is getting out of proportions... if any player does something different from this macro shit he automatically becomes a: fucking skilless lucky shitty newbie with no mechanics (PRO MECHANICS 300 EAPM LULZ!!)
No, the best players are people who can play straight up, but also mix in these unorthodox things. He can't help anyone with straightup play, as he himself does not understand it. He's wanting money to teach people useless shit.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
these threads make good reads if nothing else o-O
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On January 08 2010 15:17 Sadist wrote:
For what its worth I completely disagree with a majority of people on this site who seem to have this idea that ranks are incredibly hard and accurate measurement of skill. That somehow a C+ player is better than a C player. Or that B+ > B. All you need to do is get lucky and win several games in a row and you can move up a rank. It also has a shitload to do with when/who you play.
100% agree. Pretty much anyone can get to C- easily if that's what they set out to do. Select your opponents, maps, match-ups and aim for build order wins, learn to execute them well and you will easily get the win-rate necessary to move up that high, at least. Throw in some luck, and some ability to play real games and people who should be above D- and you can add a couple extra ranks to that. Throw in more time, dedication, and luck, and you've reached the B range. We have no reason to think ICCup's ranking system accurately correlates to skill. If all players did was try their best to raise points, even then we'd have huge luck bubbles. Fact is most player behavior doesn't work that way. People train. People dodge and get dodged. People jump all over players who are higher than they should be, and try to avoid players who are under-ranked. Within any given rank the difference of possible skill levels is huge, and not in order according to points. 100% agree.
On January 08 2010 15:38 machinehead.. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2010 15:34 old times sake wrote:On January 08 2010 15:27 machinehead.. wrote:
I'm not even trying to advertise myself as a good player. The only point is I can help people who are d through c+. Only thing that is really being implied is that I'm above c+.... Obvious things get made into a biggest dick contest, I don't get it. "You don't play like you are b+." It's a good thing I'm not offering to teach B players then...
Guys, I'm not interested in teaching standard play... D through C+ players should already know standard play... I can give pointers if they choose to play that way, but I would suggest other ways of playing. You seem to be implying that being 1 (or at most 2) ranks above someone qualifies you to be their teacher. I'm not sure that this is true. Teaching talent doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with knowledge, and furthermore, usually to teach a subject you are required to be quite a bit more than 2 ranks above your students in most cases. For instance, if you want to teach pre-calc you often need to have at least a Master's degree in Math, right? You can't teach Calc 1 because you're in Calc 3. Now, sometimes you can tutor though. But again, in those cases it's not about the talent differential but about the fact that they are your peer who has already succeeded what you are at and has made the effort to become able to listen to people and help them help themselves. Usually they aren't so much professors or teachers as people who try to make you solve things yourself, but saving you some time when you're making big mistakes. Now I'm not sure, based on your posts so far, that we can put you in either category (tutor or professor). Clearly, 2 ranks difference doesn't make you a professor (not to say anything of teaching talent, an issue not addressed at all). As far as being a tutor, we haven't seen anything of your methods or your intent to become helpful--you are advertising based on your skill level alone, which doesn't necessarily mean you will be a good tutor. D through C then.... If someone has achieved ranks above you and they have inferior mechanics to you, that simply means you have more potential than them... and all the more reason to have them teach you the game, because obviously game knowledge is the only difference.
I don't understand how you think this is a complete response. You simply lower the boast a rank or two. That doesn't address the gap between teaching or tutoring skills and ability. Maybe every NBA player would be a decent coach for children, but as far as we can tell, you are more like a high school basketball player. Who can you necessarily coach? If you aren't good at coaching, then nobody, even if you're a starting player on a good highschool team. I don't even think I would put you that high (from what we know). You're more like a second string at his random highschool or something. Show some signs that you know what it means to tutor, mentor, or coach, rather than playing credentials.
Even if game knowledge is what sets you apart from your intended students, that doesn't mean that you are a worthwhile person to help them gain this knowledge. It's not as simple as telling them. It doesn't mean you will be useful to them at all. The knowledge is already out there for free, so what will you do better than that? Telling people is not the same as helping them. You can tell somebody how to shoot threes. It doesn't do dick.
Second, it's not just knowledge. It's mechanics. Maybe it can be coached, but I don't think everybody who has achieved great mechanics necessarily knows how to get somebody else to.
On January 08 2010 14:55 machinehead.. wrote:
I swear most of you have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old. Yes, can't read at all. I was saying I was cheesing in the reps I uploaded in a sarcastic tone, because someone kept saying I was cheesing in all my games, "u went 1 gate forge in a pvt." I made a freaking cannon at my natural. Bisu must be cheesing hard in pvz... I mean it just baffles me how people can be of this caliber.
I am surprised to see you critiqing people's reading comprehension. You clearly missed large chunks of what I said, judging by your reply.
I'm not even against you, dude. You might be a good coach. You might even be a good player. I think people are not critiquing you, just the evidence you've provided. Either stream some first person games along with your commentary, write an essay, take on a student for free so he can testify as to your helpfulness, or provide a larger set of your games so people can see what you can do. If you only show hand-picked games people are going to be suspicious. In fact, when it comes to paying somebody to coach you, people are going to be downright paranoid, and you should just expect this and see it as what you're going to have to overcome by giving what seems a large, unnecessary amount of assurances.
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my question is whether this guy truly believed he was top 16 or not. did his ego really blind him or was he just talking big with the knowledge that we can't truly disprove his claim (but he can't prove it either).
regardless, i'll offer lessons on how to attack your own buildings for $1/hr.
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personally i think its really hard to "teach" someone mechanics of how to macro/micro properly. the best way to learn to get better at those things is just through a lot of practice - not so much through coaching or tutoring by someone else. that's probably why machinehead isn't trying to teach lower level players these kinds of skills, but rather tries to teach ideas that are more related to strategies and understanding why certain tactics are done and how they can give you an advantage - basically giving you a better game sense and understanding of the game
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Ifrostmourne's post is dead on; you should clone yourself. GJ, guy. I'm not going to lie, I haven't read anything but the last response because frankly I don't value much of what was being said prior to what I had read. Guys, I wouldn't even charge much if someone wanted help... it's just a jump start to a freaking poker account, not to feed me or even money I couldn't deposit already...
In all honesty, I don't think it's right to charge much of anything for this kinda stuff till Day[9] does. Day[9] is the most well-rounded player I know, excluding Idra. Day is a brilliant person and player, and he gives out invaluable information for free. I hope you guys realize how good of a deed and privilege that is. If people think I'm a noob -- we are all nubs in someones eyes -- then I would gladly lower the target range. Less pressure on me anyways to not suck...
I think you guys are trying to discuss whether things like these should be going on in the first place, and I'm the whipping boy because no one knows me so there isn't much repercussion for scolding me. Nothing I could say would change that is the vibe I have, so I can't say I'm listening.
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When someone doesn't see where he went wrong, but instead sees himself as victim and the others as less intelligent, hilarity ensues. Seriously, get over yourself machinehead.
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For all of you that don't know who I am, I am [Pan]Gretorp. I play completely theoretical based, and rely on being smart in my game play since my execution sucks T.T I've known machinehead for at least 5 years now, and I have learned a majority of my theoretical Starcraft from him.
Throughout playing machinehead.. as long as i've ever known him, I've never seen him cheese once. He's the one that taught me never to cheese in any type of practice game, and explained to me the fundamentals of effective learning. I have no clue what people are talking about and it's really sad to keep hearing that.
His play style is unorthodox at sometimes but it's never to get a build order win. He plays deliberately, and the majority of people don't understand the reasoning which is why people discredit his play. In reality, he plays extremely smart imo.
It boils down to this:
There are those that think he's not qualified to teach.
There exists no qualification to teach. a D+ could teach a D, and a D could teach a D+. Mike Tison's coach could never beat Mike Tison, but this mean does not mean he shouldn't bother with a trainer.
There are those that discredit his rank, mechanics, knowledge of "standard play"/theoretical understanding.
There isn't much I can say for this other than I can vouch that he probably understands this game more than the majority of players. In my opinion his rank is correct although rank is just an arbitrary indicator of approximate skill. However, anyone that can get B+ is going to be theoretically stronger than the majority, generally.
I do believe he is being victimized, as people are unnecessarily harsh right off the bat. Do I believe there could be better ways of marketing his product, yes, however people are being extremely rude and delegitimizing his service because of that.
As for skill, theory, and ability to explain and teach, I think machinehead is strong still since I have talked with him about this many of times throughout the years. I've played with him twice recently and went 1-1 with him. He's still capable of strong mechanics.
As for marketing, D- :O!
However, I don't think the people trolling this is helping anyone.
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Canada9720 Posts
after seeing his responses in this thread only a retard would believe this guy is capable or interested in teaching anyone. the only coherent response he can manage is "it's only to jumpstart my poker account...". who the fuck cares about your poker? lmao what the fuck does that have to do with bw?
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As I've found out first hand from the TL.net community, it's hard to keep composure when posters are so rash with their comments, and they relentlessly keep attacking the OP.
I'm not a retard either, and you shouldn't use that word :O!
How can you honestly say all comments that were originally posted by others are legitimate. Look again and see how harsh everyone is. Not to mention, the majority of posters will go in this order.
OP is posted
Posters bash OP
OP defensive
Posters legitimizing harsh comments with their reasoning
OP defensive
Posters saying how OP's responses are ridiculous
Before people start to speak their reasoning of why they think a particular thing is bad, they start with an attacking tone, and instantly set a aggressive stance against the OP. I guess i'd characterize it as trolling before speaking instead of having a discussion/argument like a regular person with normal social skills.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 09 2010 00:15 Pr0terg wrote:
For all of you that don't know who I am, I am [Pan]Gretorp. I play completely theoretical based, and rely on being smart in my game play since my execution sucks T.T I've known machinehead for at least 5 years now, and I have learned a majority of my theoretical Starcraft from him.
Throughout playing machinehead.. as long as i've ever known him, I've never seen him cheese once. He's the one that taught me never to cheese in any type of practice game, and explained to me the fundamentals of effective learning. I have no clue what people are talking about and it's really sad to keep hearing that.
His play style is unorthodox at sometimes but it's never to get a build order win. He plays deliberately, and the majority of people don't understand the reasoning which is why people discredit his play. In reality, he plays extremely smart imo.
It boils down to this:
There are those that think he's not qualified to teach.
There exists no qualification to teach. a D+ could teach a D, and a D could teach a D+. Mike Tison's coach could never beat Mike Tison, but this mean does not mean he shouldn't bother with a trainer.
There are those that discredit his rank, mechanics, knowledge of "standard play"/theoretical understanding.
There isn't much I can say for this other than I can vouch that he probably understands this game more than the majority of players. In my opinion his rank is correct although rank is just an arbitrary indicator of approximate skill. However, anyone that can get B+ is going to be theoretically stronger than the majority, generally.
I do believe he is being victimized, as people are unnecessarily harsh right off the bat. Do I believe there could be better ways of marketing his product, yes, however people are being extremely rude and delegitimizing his service because of that.
As for skill, theory, and ability to explain and teach, I think machinehead is strong still since I have talked with him about this many of times throughout the years. I've played with him twice recently and went 1-1 with him. He's still capable of strong mechanics.
As for marketing, D- :O!
However, I don't think the people trolling this is helping anyone.
I don't really feel he's being unfairly treated at all. It's his approach that's so flawed. Like everyone knows, drilling build orders is the best way to get better, learning theorycrafting and game sense comes with time and can be helped with training, people acknowledge that, but it's developing fundamental economic, tech and attack timings that will really make a bad player improve very quickly..
But the way he's tried to get people onboard is just stupid, and his attitude doesn't appear to be that of somebody who actually wants to help people improve, just brag post about beating named players, his iccup rank and how he has a deep understanding of the game that somehow makes doing retarded bo's and strange styles an acceptable avenue to improvement.
I mean this guy goes 1 rax fac starport off 1 base, with a bunker above his ramp against zerg. He goes 1 zeal cannon expand vs terran. These are pointless outdated builds, and he is advertising his "services" by posting replays of them, and they aren't even against good players, they're against total scrubs on python.
He then gets raped by G5's terran. And if he plays the way he did in those replays I can see why.
So forgive me if he actually is an incredibly knowledgeable player who has just somehow gone unheard of for 4 years, but based on the games he has provided, his inane comments about standard play in this thread and the way he has treated everyone who has pointed out the very reasonable problems I have outlined in this post, it seems safe to conclude that he is nothing more than a mid level cheesey player, with low APM and weak mechanics, with a bad attitude and a nasty temper.
And that's all I've got to say about that.
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So machinehead tilted all his full tilt bankroll and is now desperate for some bucks...
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Calgary25981 Posts
On January 09 2010 00:23 CTStalker wrote:
after seeing his responses in this thread only a retard would believe this guy is capable or interested in teaching anyone. the only coherent response he can manage is "it's only to jumpstart my poker account...". who the fuck cares about your poker? lmao what the fuck does that have to do with bw?
It's pretty obvious he has no desire to teach people. That doesn't mean we need people piling up on him though.
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I wonder why you want to teach if you don't like 99% of the BW community and you can't take criticism.
Seems to me that you would be an awful teacher
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i just guess its ppl like this who remind us how good incontrols offer is right now ^^
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On January 09 2010 01:21 MorroW[MB] wrote:
i just guess its ppl like this who remind us how good incontrols offer is right now ^^
Could machinehead be inc trolling?
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On January 09 2010 01:40 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2010 01:21 MorroW[MB] wrote:
i just guess its ppl like this who remind us how good incontrols offer is right now ^^ Could machinehead be inc trolling?
No this sicko is actually a real person.
He got cocky one day claiming he dominates me in some LR thread. So I post a replay and he never posted on the name again and then was banned.
TL.net has lowered the standards for trash coming back repeatedly in the last six months. I don't know if it is just to much work with TSL or what but SO many weirdo's around it is getting lame.
This guy is like a flashyfinanncier that really does think he is good lol.
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I have no doubt machinehead is "in the know" and can teach people quite a bunch. But this just really goes to show that you should "get your shit together" (not an assault just because it has "shit" in it) before trying to market your expertise. The presentation has been less than stellar, and with the prev. thread the OP didn't even bother to change the post somebody else suggested as an outline. Last time I looked it still had text in it that was meant as suggestions to machinehead to change, not to the reader of the OP.
This to me suggests a degree of "slapdashness" I wouldn't immediatly pay for. Also, the emphasis on who the OP has beaten, contrary to the widely used metric of a stable rank on iCCup makes me believe that he holds himself to his own standards and nobody else's. This could mean anything, and is sometimes just a measure of the person's ego rather than anything else. Also, I would expect anyone serious about teaching for money to be able to produce a concise and coherent post presenting the offer, at least the second time around, if for some arbitrary reason not the first.
The OP is well aware of the existing offers, and should have no problem deciding a price from there. If you want to market yourself, you want to be concise and sincere. Nobody is interested in blabber, and very few people will be interested in spending time negotiating a price, which could take days over the Internet.
The problem here seems quite apparent to everyone else on this forum, so unless machinehead is truly out of synch with the cosmos he will have no problem ironing out the kinks. He might want to consult the advice of his peers before he has another go, however. I can't see him having quite a control group of extra lives on this one.
hf,
best of luck
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EPT
