EPTYeah, this is pretty much what is happening in this thread...
Progamers: Do Your Job - Page 6
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
Yeah, this is pretty much what is happening in this thread... | ||
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Abacus88
10 Posts
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
On March 21 2016 09:40 Ramiz1989 wrote: https://twitter.com/Artosis/status/711711588147814400 Yeah, this is pretty much what is happening in this thread... Gotta love Artossis | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
Telling pros to focus on getting better is unnecessary and redundant, they are already doing that. Taking 30 minutes to write a post, with the hope to make the game better for everyone, does not suddenly change that. "But back in my day we would just deal with it, after walking 2 hours on foot to get to the only PC in the city that had BW installed, we would still play Saviour on imbalanced maps..." Well guess what, it's 2016. Times change, we should move forward and not backwards. Were are in an era of open communication with Blizzard, something which has been requested for years, and it's awesome. LotV is better than sc2 ever was. Why? Because they took feedback from pros and the community and integrated it into the game. LotV will (hopefully) continue to change and the community and pros will both be heavily involved in that process. Don't shit on pros when they have something to say, be thankful for the input. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
The idea (per avilo) that BW was just "perfectly balanced" (having arrived in a thunderbolt out of heaven in a once-in-a-million-years miracle) is like the biggest urban legend in all of Esports, and one of the most detrimental ones for the SC2 scene. The truth is, balance was all over the place in BW during its height. There were all kinds of crazy units and strats that could be insanely imbalanced based on the maps. There were seasons of the OSL where Zerg lost almost every single PvZ...and seasons where Protoss lost almost every single PvZ...and so on and so forth. Progamers occasionally complained about balance, and people on TL created threads about it. But in the end, everyone knew that there wasn't too much they could do about it, and maps and crazy new strategies were created to deal with these problems. The (tiny) community was committed to the game, and the progamers were committed to getting better no matter what. If they wanted mech to work, then they went out and karking made it work-- like Fantasy made mech TvZ a thing after years of everyone being totally convinced that bio was the only viable strat in the match-up. + Show Spoiler [BW Balance Whine] + Even after all these years, though, I still think that at the very highest level P is the weakest race in BW. Pity us! More than this, everything NonY is saying is completely true, just on the level of basic competitive mindset, as should be fairly obvious. No one in competitive swimming (my own past sport, and one that's more similar to SC given its individual nature) lobbies to get the backstroke changed. I have no desire to criticize current foreign pros (many of whom I'm big fans of), but when half of many progamers' tweets are balance complaints following losses, it's not hard to say that this is hardly a healthy mindset for being the best. For crying out loud, there's a real conversation in the community and among progamers right now over which race whines the hardest, and whether this leads to them getting undue attention and buffs--and you think that's a healthy competitive mindset? Yeah, I know, "the game is garbage" and "there are major design issues" and "David Kim is incompetent and arrogant" and "x strat is completely broken" and "terran are all whiners who get all the buffs" and "P never gets any buffs"...but you can repeat those slogans from now to eternity, and it won't change the fact that this is an extremely unhealthy mindset for actual competitors to take. NonY's post isn't necessarily a swipe against big, well-thought-out TL posts by Huk or whatever--nor is it an insult against foreign pros and the hard work they put in. It's a challenge to a hugely negative and anti-competitive mindset that's taken root in the community and among some pros. Heck, it's practically a friendly suggestion, from one of the all-time greats of foreign SC. Take it as such. | ||
Liquid`Snute
Norway839 Posts
The "stfu" arguments are understandable but i think what happened to the adept and the professional outcries surrounding its issues was a good thing and I wouldn't have traded that for another month of tournament games on the pre-fix patch with nobody speaking their mind and 'trying to find a way around it' be it by building 7 bunkers or proxy-raxing before the adepts even got out. Remember 2013 blink meta? WoL 1/1/1? Broodlord-infestor "kill them before they get there"? At the end of the day it was changed. Swarm Host was eventually changed too, Blizzard said they would've liked to do it sooner. Swarmhost Viper stalemate ZvZ. About 7 hours were spent on like what 3 games in Lone Star Clash but then part thanks to community/pro input a broodlord buff was introduced that removed the issue and we didn't have to watch 30x 4 hour games of Swarmhost vs Swarmhost ZvZ "proved by pro-gamers to be broken" in pro tournaments before a patch would be finally rolled out. Maps didn't have to be designed around Swarmhost Stalemate ZvZ. Some times there isn't a "way around it", and in these cases, feedback and patches are for the better. Compared to Brood War, SC2 has a lot of issues and is patched far more frequently (including expansions) and also a lot of the time some design choices are just flat out questionable (Hellbat vs Hellbat TvT, thankfully-scrapped-in-BETA Warhound). When HOTS expansion came out, Swarmhost Viper Spore ZvZ became a new issue nobody had seen before. There was no such problem in brood war (thats what it sounds like at least lol), so maybe the mentality to fix it didn't have to be there to begin with? But if you see five 3-hour long ZvZs that ended up in a stalemate despite a player having a "250% advantage" unable to close it out because of a ramp you know that hey, maybe the game might actually benefit (more fair to the player with more winning moves, more entertaining to the audience) from some tweaking of the rules. And it should be okay for professional players to speak out about things like this, Korean or Non-Korean, even in non-mirror match-ups, even if the man-up attitude is so prevalent. It's all just for the sake of saving time, making progress and fast-forwarding development to a better stage in less time, and I think having everyone be quiet (about warhound, adept, hellbat, swarmhost, broodlord/infestor) and telling everyone to be quiet creates a masculine but occasionally toxic culture where a lot of (sometimes very talented) people with reasonable suggestions will be discouraged from bringing potentially positive feedback to the scene. I don't think people would enjoy StarCraft 2 as much if it was StarTvT: Micro Battle of the Warhounds with its upcoming expansion "StarTvT Legacy of the Warhound: It is what it is" | ||
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phantomfive
Korea (South)404 Posts
but now I feel inspired to go and play some Starcraft. | ||
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HyDrA_solic
Portugal491 Posts
On March 21 2016 10:47 Liquid`Snute wrote: i can understand this masculine man-up approach getting a lot of general support but i would like to remind everyone of the tournament games that were played before the adept fix was brought in. These issues were very obvious and in my opinion lowered the quality of the game as a whole, and i think most pro-gamers, anywhere in between high/gm or ~1500+ aligulac or gsl champ/~2500 could make competent calls and comments about the pre-patch adept. The "stfu" arguments are understandable but i think what happened to the adept and the professional outcries surrounding its issues was a good thing and I wouldn't have traded that for another month of tournament games on the pre-fix patch with nobody speaking their mind and 'trying to find a way around it' be it by building 7 bunkers or proxy-raxing before the adepts even got out. Remember 2013 blink meta? WoL 1/1/1? Broodlord-infestor "kill them before they get there"? At the end of the day it was changed. Swarm Host was eventually changed too, Blizzard said they would've liked to do it sooner. Swarmhost Viper stalemate ZvZ. About 7 hours were spent on like what 3 games in Lone Star Clash but then part thanks to community/pro input a broodlord buff was introduced that removed the issue and we didn't have to watch 30x 4 hour games of Swarmhost vs Swarmhost ZvZ "proved by pro-gamers to be broken" in pro tournaments before a patch would be finally rolled out. Maps didn't have to be designed around Swarmhost Stalemate ZvZ. Some times there isn't a "way around it", and in these cases, feedback and patches are for the better. Compared to Brood War, SC2 has a lot of issues and is patched far more frequently (including expansions) and also a lot of the time some design choices are just flat out questionable (Hellbat vs Hellbat TvT, thankfully-scrapped-in-BETA Warhound). When HOTS expansion came out, Swarmhost Viper Spore ZvZ became a new issue nobody had seen before. There was no such problem in brood war (thats what it sounds like at least lol), so maybe the mentality to fix it didn't have to be there to begin with? But if you see five 3-hour long ZvZs that ended up in a stalemate despite a player having a "250% advantage" unable to close it out because of a ramp you know that hey, maybe the game might actually benefit (more fair to the player with more winning moves, more entertaining to the audience) from some tweaking of the rules. And it should be okay for professional players to speak out about things like this, Korean or Non-Korean, even in non-mirror match-ups, even if the man-up attitude is so prevalent. It's all just for the sake of saving time, making progress and fast-forwarding development to a better stage in less time, and I think having everyone be quiet (about warhound, adept, hellbat, swarmhost, broodlord/infestor) and telling everyone to be quiet creates a masculine but occasionally toxic culture where a lot of (sometimes very talented) people with reasonable suggestions will be discouraged from bringing potentially positive feedback to the scene. I don't think people would enjoy StarCraft 2 as much if it was StarTvT: Micro Battle of the Warhounds with its upcoming expansion "StarTvT Legacy of the Warhound: It is what it is" You're stating some obvious design mistakes that were made by Blizzard. However, Nony is wishing for progamers to think before they post. To try to come with strategies to overcome what seems to be difficult to overcome. We have you as an example. You struggled a lot to develop your playstyle in both earlier expansions, yet, you've overcomed those issues. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
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TheoMikkelsen
Denmark196 Posts
On March 21 2016 12:04 HyDrA_solic wrote: You're stating some obvious design mistakes that were made by Blizzard. However, Nony is wishing for progamers to think before they post. To try to come with strategies to overcome what seems to be difficult to overcome. We have you as an example. You struggled a lot to develop your playstyle in both earlier expansions, yet, you've overcomed those issues. I think Snute is well aware that players must be able to come up with strategies to beat their opponents despite the balance/design issues at hand. What he is really saying is that he thinks most players of a certain very high skill level are capable of providing feedback backed up by a strong theoretical understanding. Assuming Terran or Zerg would have found ways to beat the Adept build pre-patch to a say 45% winratio then the Adept would not necessarily be rendered unoverpowered/non-imbalanced/non-designflawed. It was clear that despite any possibility to actually find ways to deal with the Adept, you would either sacrifice your position versus other Protoss builds or Protoss were not executing their strategies well enough due to a variety of reasons, perhaps one of them being that some Adept pushes/allins were quite easy to execute. Easy to execute to an extent that that alone made it deserving of a Patch. While I agree that every player must do his/her best to improve your own game, ultimately I think the right call is to improve the game itself. If you improve yourself you ultimately improve your own game experience - but aiming for a better game design also accomplishes this, and likely even more so. I would personally encourage anybody ranging from a skill level of that Snute described, but otherwise just anybody, to raise their concerns about Starcraft II if they are thought through and sincere. Mana´s posts, Nerchios posts and my posts or other proplayers thoughts about the game are all sincere, even if they are formulated with sarcasm, seriousness or bias. I think those who truly believe what they have to say is true should raise their concerns publicly so the rest of us can make a judgement call on whether it would be worse or better for the game. If everybody at semi-professional or professional level to the fullest followed the guidelines provided in the OP, the game would be in a regressive state. Period. Some of the points made in defence of the notion in the OP sounds really Willy Wonka to me. I do not know what it means when some things are said like "it is more beautiful if players change the game rather than the developers" or the nostalgic comparisons to Brood War. Starcraft II is not Brood War, there should not be much of a surprise there. I never played Brood War, but it is obvious that this game had the tools to provide extermely mechanically gifted players with the opportunity to win games from as far behind as one could possibly imagine. Due to these differences in mechanics, players had more room to explore options to beat their opponents, thus a larger range of imbalance could be allowed. This would not be the case in a vast majority of instances in StarCraft II and an intervention would be required from the development team side. In fact, Terran is by far the most overpowered race. If you had an A.I to micro each individual marine, you would never lose. (At least In HotS, but my point stands.) The more superior mechanics/macro/micro are versus the other significant things that makes a StarCraft II player, the more imbalance/design flaws are acceptable. To me there is compelling evidence that rational feedback/suggestions to improve the design of Starcraft II (and in some cases imbalance issues) have forwarded the game much more frequently than the opposite regardless of whether you are a GSL champion or top 100 GM on Europe. The key thing here is to improve the game, not fix the game. Even if there is a general consensus that an aspect of the game is fine - if you truly have evidence that there are improvements to be made, I would listen to it - and I would encourage everyone else to do so as well. I do not see how you can not point out your concerns or good ideas to the community / Blizzard to put on the watch list while you do everything you can to improve your own game while also in this case doing everything you can to improve the actual game. Improving the game follows the commonly agreed regulations that they serve the greater good, including but not limited to skill, macro, diversity and playstyle rather than their each respective opposites. Now to be fair, I think Nony makes some good points. - Koreans does not necessarily through cultural aspects have any significant advantage over foreigners other than the ability to play on Korean Ladder. And unless you are top 5 GM on Europe, you probably will not benefit as much from Korean ladder as you would on Europe if at all. This depends on the target area you wish to improve for/against. - There is a relatively large and easy tendency to have a flawed mindset and think that the game is at fault rather than yourself. - It is possible to imagine yourself beating the best korean in the world. Not as a goal, but as a mindset. If you already put yourself in the shoes of realism and choose to only focus on Blizzcon, you are subconciously limiting yourself. And perhaps this is the entire point of the OP, to tell progamers to not limit themselves through clouding thoughts about improving the game. I would however argue that even if that is even remotely true, you may still be capapble of saying some very good things about ways to improve the game, even if when doing so you hurt your own potential skill development in the game, it would still be for the greater good. However I am absolutely certain it is possible to share your fullest thoughts on the game while still doing your very best to improve, and this should be the official message. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
i'm sur Warcraft, Watcraft II, Starcraft, Brood War were good because the community chimmed in. | ||
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
On March 21 2016 09:57 showstealer1829 wrote: On the one hand I agree with everything Nony said. But really why do they need to get good anymore? They have WCS Welfare. Who cares if the first round of Blizzcon will make the Lolbow fiasco look like the GSL Finals? Foreigners get their free money. Which seems to please a lot of people here. I dont think it should be a Money thing (of course Progamers gotta live of a something) but i feel like it should be more about wanting to be the best Player in the world. Which leads us to the Mindset again: On March 20 2016 07:14 NonY wrote: It's a matter of mindset and attitude and focus. + Show Spoiler + On March 20 2016 06:50 Chubz wrote: if only you applied your own advice for yourself  When I was good at BW, it never crossed my mind for a second that the rules of the game were going to be changed. When WCG or TSL or KeSPA announced the maps that we were gonna play on, we just accepted them and did what we could to maximize our chance to win. And to even think of Blizzard doing a balance patch would have been absurd. As for SC2, I did try to play both roles to some extent, as a "personality" who commented on things and as a player. I agree with you that this would have been good advice for me. But knowing personally how I was different at the time of my success in BW from how I was at the time of my failures in SC2, I'm sure that this advice would not have been enough to help me. It wasn't the main thing tripping me up. Is it the main thing tripping up some of the top talent right now? I don't think it's exactly it, but it's a symptom of the bad mindset of the scene, which definitely isn't competitive enough and is not right for getting everyone to play the best they can. Maybe staying focused on a problem-solving and winrate-improving mindset will help some players. Maybe having someone like me tell them they suck will spur them on to prove me wrong. Motivation works in weird ways. I'm sure someone wants to go outplay Zest and then bring this up, even though I'm nobody and it doesn't really matter that I doubted them. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On March 21 2016 16:41 FFW_Rude wrote: Remember when we bought a game and just played it And that sometimes we could download patches because the editor felt like it ? Now everyone wants to "Correct the game". i'm sur Warcraft, Watcraft II, Starcraft, Brood War were good because the community chimmed in. Yeah but that was also the era where they released games when they're done instead of when Activision wants to publish | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On March 20 2016 08:42 SoleSteeler wrote: I lived and worked in Korea for 6 years. Koreans aren't genetically gifted or special. I am married to one! I find they just work a lot harder and train smarter. They are also extremely competitive. It's easy for me to be critical of foreigners but there's really no reason they can't compete with the best if they put in the same amount of hours and properly focused effort as Koreans do. It almost feels like a mental block. Like they know they are at some big disadvantage already... Yeah, I completely agree with this one. Lets take a look at competitive LoL. Koreans in Korea are doing really good. They're the best, they win the worlds since they came into the business. But, they are challenged (sometimes greatly) by foreigner teams. Now take a look at Koreans that left for China. Take a look at Mata, who even stated in an itw that he was training half a day in china, then just had free time (with a fucking lot of money to enjoy it on top of that), compared to the rigorous training conditions in Korea. So what ? Training conditions, coaching, and living the life of a progamer are the only thing that are different throughout the different regions of the worlds. Not anything about being Korean or not or whatever. EDIT : in fact it does lmao It just isn't about genetical material or so, it's just about hardworking and also, being in a country in which Esport MEANS actually smthg.(I still acknowledge the fact that comparing LoL to BW/SC2 is a little bit biased, since the mechanical part of the game is not as important as in the previous two. You can be better on the laning phases and in the TFs (so, mechanically), and can still get steamrolled because you don't know how to play macro (rotations, vision, ...) HELLO CHINA !) | ||
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
On March 21 2016 11:33 phantomfive wrote: The OP made me smile inside. I am not anywhere close to pro, but now I feel inspired to go and play some Starcraft. Word | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
On March 21 2016 18:09 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Yeah but that was also the era where they released games when they're done instead of when Activision wants to publish Well i agree but dont want to trade back to the old system we can make the game better on the fly | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
that was my motivational speech, my fee is $4,000, thank you and goodnight | ||
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