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8751 Posts
On March 22 2016 19:31 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
You points just seem to come off pinpointing at Koreans on their pedestal, saying how as long as Koreans are better/winning more than foreigners it is a waste of time to think about how the game could be better, though contradicting to what you said later.
It is not a complete waste of time but it is an inefficient use of a progamer's talents. I've said it many times to many people in this thread already but my belief is that progamers make an extremely significant contribution to the development of the game simply by being good at the game and showing what's possible. Virtually nothing the non-Koreans show in their games is actually valid "feedback" because they're not the best! Non-Koreans shouldn't want the game designed around how Masters players play, and neither should anyone want the game designed around non-Korean play when the Koreans are better still. If these players have a passion for improving the game, they can offer ideas theoretically without any authority, or they can prove their ideas in their games by playing at the highest level. The latter is so much better and considering it's their job to do so anyway, why not improve both things at once? And putting game design in perspective for a moment, progamers have a better chance of doing more good overall for the scene by becoming better players. And in a happy coincidence, they're also becoming better contributors to the game design process. Win/win.
The problem is figuring out how to actually get better. It's not as simple as "instead of making this post on game design today, I'm going to get as good as Dark." I don't know what players need to change. But something HAS to change. We can't all, as a community, keep acting like it's fine that Korea is a league ahead of the rest of the world. We can't just accept it. I don't care that you can imagine a progamer being successful while still giving game design feedback. I can do it too. I still made this blog.
Maybe instead of having a passion for game design, these players should become passionate about how to improve. They should make more posts like this blog, saying what they need to do or think differently to get better. For all the objections to my advice in this thread, hardly anyone offers advice or solutions of their own, and yet no one can deny that Koreans are much better players. They just want to defend the thing I said should be changed because they like that thing. It's not an honest attempt at doing what's best for everyone. I have personally participated in plenty of game design discussions and I'm happy to read a non-Korean progamer's opinion but I have no problem letting it go.
On March 22 2016 19:31 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
You seem very fixated on the fact that foreigners are performing as well as Koreans, and that totally misses the point. There can be many reasons why foreigners are not as good as Koreans, everything from practice environment, lack of mechanics and so forth. The question of balance or better game design is just one out of many factors determining whether you can win or not.
Yeah so let's start on this project. The weakest link is the non-Korean's skill, not the gameplay. I don't know why so few players have been able to close the gap, and when they do why it's brief and limited. There are people who are working on trying to find answers to these questions. This is the project that should be at the forefront of our community.
On March 22 2016 19:31 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
Good ideas can help progress the game to a better state regardless of whomever the idea originated from and regardless whether said person can beat Koreans or not.
True. So why is it that we encourage the players who are supposed to be trying to beat Koreans to instead become part-time game developers? Players of any skill level can contribute to game design. But it's only the most talented players, the top non-Korean progamers, who have a shot at beating Koreans. Let's support them in their effort to beat Koreans and not encourage them to do something that someone of any skill level can do.
On March 22 2016 19:59 graNite wrote:
What exactly is Nonys job right now?
If it is not "reminding progamers what to do", then this blog is contradicting itself.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough in explaining the basic logic here. There's an assumption that anyone who is flourishing is not under any scrutiny. But once you are not flourishing, you are under scrutiny. If the people who are affected by my job feel that I'm underperforming, then I would be happy for their advice on how to improve. It doesn't matter what my job is. It only matters if I'm doing it well enough. And even then, it only matters to the people it affects.
I'm affected by how well non-Korean players do their job and they're not doing it as well as the Koreans. None of them are forced to read my blog. The title is descriptive enough that they could immediately decide to not click if they don't want to hear me telling them what to do.
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To everyone:
I'm done replying to comments. It's gotten very repetitive. If you have a comment, I suggest reading the entire thread to see if it was already expressed and if I already responded to it.
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It is the job of the progamers to balance whine.
Balance whine is directly and indirectly relating to the income of pros. You can train 1000s of hours to "get gud", but balance whining doesnt take you more then 5 mins - 2hours, depending on how much effort you put into it. But 1000 hours of "getting gud" can make a much smaller effort to your income as a player then one single patch from Blizzard, that changes the game the way you want, gives you a much bigger edge and thus a better income.
Thats also why I cant blame Rain for his infamous balance states in 2014 during the blink-all-in era. It is his job to whine some minutes on stage or one hour ina community forum, delaying or forcing patches by balance whining (or at least have an impact on blizzards patch policy) will give much greater return of time investing then grinding training games. One patch or missing patch makes alot of income, much more then 2 weeks of training. And all you need to do is balance whine here and there.
Take for example Brofestor. It took arround 8 months (or longer?) to patch a clear OP strategy out of the game. The patch (or rather HotS itself) which got rid of Brofestor had more affect on income of all players then the hardcore training of 8 month before. Rising Patchzergs made alot more money by telling the world that Brofestor is not OP to Blizzard then by training Brofestor, Terrans and Protoss made more money by whining for a massive nerf and then start winning again then by training against a clear OP strategy they had no way to adept or "get gud" against.
The same goes for todays Protoss. Protoss sits on these maps now since the beta and is playing these maps for money since LotV launch. All they got from "getting gud" was the patch that nerfed protoss. Protoss players got a clear hit in income from the map-pool and the 3 55-60% winrate maps. 1 hour of whining each week till finally the mappool gets patched will bring a much better return of time investet then 1 hour of more training each week.
These players are not just some grinders who play SC II in their free time, they do it for the money. And it would be stupid for them to not try to max out their profits from their job. And guess what, lobbying for patches brings more return then grinding games and "getting gud".
And now a personal attack:
It is super ironic that a player who never "got gud" enough to play agains koreans and who won his only major competition in a tournament without koreans is now attacking the foreigners who cant win against koreans on major stages. The very same person that wasnt able to do the same is now attacking a new generation of foreigners who, after 10 years of "getting gud" did not work out, use lobbying and whining as a new approach.
"I'm affected by how well non-Korean players do their job and they're not doing it as well as the Koreans."
The same could be said about the thread OP and makes his statements even more..., i am not going the Redeye way... strange.
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@Clonester ya just don't get it, do you?
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On March 22 2016 14:00 NonY wrote:
PS: Point 1.5: Even if the progamer could contribute something by taking the initiative to write comments to the game devs, it's not as though they're likely to improve the process much. Game design doesn't halt because progamers aren't randomly submitting memos to the dev team anymore. The game will improve with or without the these posts.
OK well first allow me to be super confused at your logic because quoting you from this thread, it's about time :
All of that external stuff can be quantified by the amount of minutes it takes from a player's attention and then we can clearly see that they have plenty of minutes remaining to do their jobs.
Earlier in this thread :
Already said it's not about time but rather how a player thinks about a game.
Just being facetious here, but worth checking consistency of arguments.
Also, there is quite some nerve in titling a post 'Progamers do your job' with a strong-armed ending, and making sweeping generalisations over their behaviour, whilst then admitting that
I'm not sure what the point is of defending the actions and mindsets of the players. Anything is possible. One guy can thrive while talking shit, another can thrive while whining, another can thrive while remaining silent, another can thrive while engaging in social media, etc.
In which case, surely it is pretty pointless to advise them regarding their actions and mindsets as well ?
Finally :
This is such an unbelievable waste of time and effort while players are getting outclassed by Koreans. I can't even fathom how you could think that this is a good use of our most talented players.
I think surely you jest at this point ? I'm not a fan of LiquidMana's balance post - but I can't believe he would have spent more than an hour writing it. You can't tell us with a straight face that had he spent that hour on three more practice games, you would have expected him to 5-0 Rogue. Yes, that time would have been better invested, yes, he would have been ever so slightly more focused, but no, it would not have made any material difference, in the grand scheme of things. It is just that : a small waste of time. And it will become increasingly whiny and immature as the game settles, for sure.
I rest my case on pure logic. I do not want to sound hostile at all - consistency of logic is important to the debate, and you bring extremely important points to the table. Some of them are uncomfortable truths.
On Koreans vs top foreigners : Snute 2-4 Polt, Nerchio 2-3 sOs. Yes they lose the series and yes you could argue those two are not the hottest TY-Zest-Dark-Maru top brass of the moment, but those are tight series in my book. Nerchio's ELO 6 points less than Innovation's or Zest's ! Yes ELO is flawed and yes there definitely is a skill gap, but I'm not gonna be the guy telling Nerchio to work more ( or kiss goodbye to his life, to go to Korea and take that Code S spot - that's a personal and economic decision ). You rightly ask what can we do to lift him up to Dark's level ? A commendable goal if there ever was one, but I believe there might be little actionable insights - emulation, the presence of a scene, is probably what we need, like what you are beginning to see in France.
In general I think you are asking the right - and hard - question, which is, how does one raise to the absolute top of their game ? How does one become a world champion ? How do we ignite the e-sports movement in one country ?
On March 22 2016 19:31 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
You seem very fixated on the fact that foreigners are performing as well as Koreans, and that totally misses the point. There can be many reasons why foreigners are not as good as Koreans, everything from practice environment, lack of mechanics and so forth. The question of balance or better game design is just one out of many factors determining whether you can win or not.
Yeah so let's start on this project. The weakest link is the non-Korean's skill, not the gameplay. I don't know why so few players have been able to close the gap, and when they do why it's brief and limited. There are people who are working on trying to find answers to these questions. This is the project that should be at the forefront of our community.
Yes and yes.
As a recommendation, and since I think it's about the environment, let's do this thought experiment : put the top 20 Euro and NA foreigners in a common practice house in London, Paris, or Berlin, and have them play each other pretty much daily, in front of a coach who is grading them. Rinse and repeat for 6 months. What is your expectation of how much the skill gap to Korean would have narrowed then ? Do you not think that team would have fair odds against a mid-level Proleague team ? I do. I think the environment would strongly encourage them to increase locus of control and sense of agency there.
If your point then becomes that the more discipline and focus in that house, the better, then let's shake hands and say fully agreed.
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On March 23 2016 00:26 Clonester wrote:
It is the job of the progamers to balance whine.
Balance whine is directly and indirectly relating to the income of pros. You can train 1000s of hours to "get gud", but balance whining doesnt take you more then 5 mins - 2hours, depending on how much effort you put into it. But 1000 hours of "getting gud" can make a much smaller effort to your income as a player then one single patch from Blizzard, that changes the game the way you want, gives you a much bigger edge and thus a better income.
Thats also why I cant blame Rain for his infamous balance states in 2014 during the blink-all-in era. It is his job to whine some minutes on stage or one hour ina community forum, delaying or forcing patches by balance whining (or at least have an impact on blizzards patch policy) will give much greater return of time investing then grinding training games. One patch or missing patch makes alot of income, much more then 2 weeks of training. And all you need to do is balance whine here and there.
Take for example Brofestor. It took arround 8 months (or longer?) to patch a clear OP strategy out of the game. The patch (or rather HotS itself) which got rid of Brofestor had more affect on income of all players then the hardcore training of 8 month before. Rising Patchzergs made alot more money by telling the world that Brofestor is not OP to Blizzard then by training Brofestor, Terrans and Protoss made more money by whining for a massive nerf and then start winning again then by training against a clear OP strategy they had no way to adept or "get gud" against.
The same goes for todays Protoss. Protoss sits on these maps now since the beta and is playing these maps for money since LotV launch. All they got from "getting gud" was the patch that nerfed protoss. Protoss players got a clear hit in income from the map-pool and the 3 55-60% winrate maps. 1 hour of whining each week till finally the mappool gets patched will bring a much better return of time investet then 1 hour of more training each week.
These players are not just some grinders who play SC II in their free time, they do it for the money. And it would be stupid for them to not try to max out their profits from their job. And guess what, lobbying for patches brings more return then grinding games and "getting gud".
And now a personal attack:
It is super ironic that a player who never "got gud" enough to play agains koreans and who won his only major competition in a tournament without koreans is now attacking the foreigners who cant win against koreans on major stages. The very same person that wasnt able to do the same is now attacking a new generation of foreigners who, after 10 years of "getting gud" did not work out, use lobbying and whining as a new approach.
"I'm affected by how well non-Korean players do their job and they're not doing it as well as the Koreans."
The same could be said about the thread OP and makes his statements even more..., i am not going the Redeye way... strange.
That's a very, very unhealthy attitude for the scene as a whole, though. Which is precisely the problem. If progamers are incentivized to balance whine rather than getting better at the game and showing entertaining games and strategies, entertainment value suffers, the mindset of players and the community suffers, the level of competition suffers, the integrity of competition suffers, and the scene takes a huge hit. It's very important to avoid that kind of situation. If there are things that make the incentive structure of the scene this way, then they need to change, or progamers need to learn to overcome them. It's as simple as that.
Basically, after following the scene for this wrong, I think the basic part of what NonY is saying--that mindset is one of the biggest problems in foreign SC2 among players and the community--is almost self-evidently correct. Fixing it is obviously harder, though.
Also, I'm karking sick and tired of ignorant people coming into this thread and shitting on Nony's record. This is a man who, in an era where there essentially was no foreign scene at all, where the prospects for a foreigner making any real money off the game were basically nil, was so committed to the game and getting better at it that he moved to Korea, moved into a team-house, and steadily worked his way up the ranks to the point of beating Koreans. As an accomplishment, that's something much harder than anything any SC2 foreign pro has ever done, and it shows a level of commitment to self-improvement that's considerable.
That he ended up retiring from the scene to get married is his own business. And that that he didn't do great in SC2, because he was suffering from clinical depression, is also his own business.
So, yes, he didn't do well in SC2 while dealing with a competitive handicap bigger than most people can imagine. But the bottom line is that if Nony doesn't have the background and the right to say what he's saying, no one does.
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France12911 Posts
I don't see why you would need to become better players to talk about design.
ByuN is one of the best koreans, yet he got f*cked by very bad design (Ulrena and the tempest build in PvT), thing that was shown already in foreigner games.
If it stresses you out that foreign pros post things about design instead of "doing their job", consider they did it in their free time :o.
People didn't complain about the game in BW? I don't know, but foreigners still got trashed by koreans ultimately, and BW probably could have been (or not, can't know) a better game if it was possible to talk to Blizzard about it.
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If something has an even 1% chance of being patched in your favor by complaining about it/posting about it on the forums, why would you not? Seems like a clear way to gain an edge imo and as many others have pointed out it's not just foreigners that have complained about balance. Also, this post just seems slightly out of line as it insinuates foreign players aren't putting in as much effort as Koreans simply because their play is inferior. (Which may or may not be true)
Whether we like it or not the Korean scene has always and most likely will always be miles ahead of the foreign scene as a whole and there is very little that can be done about it in the near future.
I agree that a more competitive foreign scene would be great for the game however I'm not sure a post like this is going to do much to accomplish that.
Just my thoughts!
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On March 23 2016 05:57 Response wrote:
If something has an even 1% chance of being patched in your favor by complaining about it/posting about it on the forums, why would you not?
Because clinging to that idea will poison your mindset?
The perceived imbalance affects you way more than the actual imbalance. Thats why you shouldnt think about it too much imo.
you only control what you can control...
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On March 23 2016 00:26 Clonester wrote:
And now a personal attack:
It is super ironic that a player who never "got gud" enough to play agains koreans and who won his only major competition in a tournament without koreans is now attacking the foreigners who cant win against koreans on major stages. The very same person that wasnt able to do the same is now attacking a new generation of foreigners who, after 10 years of "getting gud" did not work out, use lobbying and whining as a new approach.
"I'm affected by how well non-Korean players do their job and they're not doing it as well as the Koreans."
The same could be said about the thread OP and makes his statements even more..., i am not going the Redeye way... strange.
You're speaking to a foreigner who almost won a Courage tournament. NonY is far from a scrub who never "got gud" enough to take on Koreans.
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On March 23 2016 00:26 Clonester wrote:
It is super ironic that a player who never "got gud" enough to play agains koreans
......... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
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TLADT24920 Posts
Really good OP and overall, some pretty terrible replies. Nony laid out the point very clearly, even more so with his subsequent replies. Stop balance whining and focus on your game, that's pretty much it. It's not some revolutionary idea and it makes perfect sense as well.
Even if it takes mere minutes to write something and go back to practicing, the idea of x unit is causing me to lose y% of my games is a big detriment to one's game. It becomes a subconscious block for the majority of players and affects their performance.
In other words, if you are someone who truly loves the game and wants to be the best, focus on finding the weakness in your game and work hard on overcoming it. Same thing applies to overcoming new "imba" strategies. It goes without saying that only those who can adapt and are willing to reinvent themselves constantly will survive in an ever-changing RTS game like starcraft.
Also, you guys should really stop it with the personal attacks. I think it's great that his post seems to be engaging the community but no reason to attack one's achievements.
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Seems like there's a general consensus that its necessary and even good to complain and suggest better game design, but what I'm not seeing from the pros who have responded is why they have not been able to rise to the task of challenging top Koreans, which is what Nony is really getting at. His suggestion to focus more on the game is good, his suggestion to stop complaining about balance is wrong. I think you can complain about balance while still focusing on the game.
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I agree with NonY. I think he makes his points pretty clearly. His responses in the thread further clarify his positions and openness to other opinions.
Love the blog NonY, hope you write more despite some potentially frustrating responses to this one
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Have any of you ever watched Nony`s Stream? I`m not really good at the game. But Nony Knows the game PERIOD. AGAIN watch he`s stream and LISTEN to how he plays the game....!! Really Nony i Respect you alot and your totally right about this "Problem"
Toe-to-toe? No, not nearly as good. Nowhere close. I guess that's another thing we'll have to agree to disagree. If you want to bet your life on MLord beating Zest, TY, Dark, Solar, etc, when the conditions are fair and the Koreans actually care about winning, then I think you are nuts. It is nowhere near even. In a bo7, those Korean players win 95%+ of the time I think.
sad that you dont play anymore (said it before)
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I personally blame some former community figures and current players who whine all the time. Strangely it is always the own race that is underpowered while verything else is obviously OP. I think the climate is now somewhat poisoned because anyone who is halfway decent at the game now thinks he's a game designer.
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On March 25 2016 03:29 AngryMag wrote:
I personally blame some former community figures and current players who whine all the time. Strangely it is always the own race that is underpowered while verything else is obviously OP. I think the climate is now somewhat poisoned because anyone who is halfway decent at the game now thinks he's a game designer.
Do you think the game would be in perfectly good shape now if the people who "whined" had just been quiet and more people would be playing because there's no problem at all with the game and all complaints came from divas and idiots? Because I feel like the overwhelming negative feedback may actually have been due to people actually not liking the game that much.
Reading some of you people it's like everything is perfect and people complained out of the blue. "SC2 was great but then there was mass paranoia!".
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On March 25 2016 04:45 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 03:29 AngryMag wrote:
I personally blame some former community figures and current players who whine all the time. Strangely it is always the own race that is underpowered while verything else is obviously OP. I think the climate is now somewhat poisoned because anyone who is halfway decent at the game now thinks he's a game designer. Do you think the game would be in perfectly good shape now if the people who "whined" had just been quiet and more people would be playing because there's no problem at all with the game and all complaints came from divas and idiots? Because I feel like the overwhelming negative feedback may actually have been due to people actually not liking the game that much. Reading some of you people it's like everything is perfect and people complained out of the blue. "SC2 was great but then there was mass paranoia!".
Nah but I would say that 99% of the whine is unqualified bitching. I think that it actually makes the game designer's job harder because they have to filter out the 1% of viable complaints out of a sea of bullshit.
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On March 25 2016 04:59 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2016 04:45 Djzapz wrote:On March 25 2016 03:29 AngryMag wrote:
I personally blame some former community figures and current players who whine all the time. Strangely it is always the own race that is underpowered while verything else is obviously OP. I think the climate is now somewhat poisoned because anyone who is halfway decent at the game now thinks he's a game designer. Do you think the game would be in perfectly good shape now if the people who "whined" had just been quiet and more people would be playing because there's no problem at all with the game and all complaints came from divas and idiots? Because I feel like the overwhelming negative feedback may actually have been due to people actually not liking the game that much. Reading some of you people it's like everything is perfect and people complained out of the blue. "SC2 was great but then there was mass paranoia!". Nah but I would say that 99% of the whine is unqualified bitching. I think that it actually makes the game designer's job harder because they have to filter out the 1% of viable complaints out of a sea of bullshit.
It just seems to me like if you have that many complaints maybe there's something that people fundamentally dislike about the game. Like do you imagine that people in other games are more qualified at all? If anything the SC2 community has some of the more insightful comments about the game when compared to MOBAs where the ratio of knowledgeable folks to idiots is absolutely astounding, or even CSGO. SC2 players tend to think a whole lot more, as is expected of people who play RTS. And no one is concerned for those games.
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I don't believe that Blizzard only looks at Korean pro-gamer gameplay.
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EPT
