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On March 21 2016 18:09 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 16:41 FFW_Rude wrote:
Remember when we bought a game and just played it And that sometimes we could download patches because the editor felt like it ? Now everyone wants to "Correct the game".
i'm sur Warcraft, Watcraft II, Starcraft, Brood War were good because the community chimmed in. Yeah but that was also the era where they released games when they're done instead of when Activision wants to publish
Because you think it wasn't like that before ? Starcraft Brood War had to get out at a timed date. They rewrote the engine like 2 month before launch. Yes. It was already like that.
The only example of a "publish when it's really done" you could find would be Daikatana (talking about a game where investors just poured more and more money in until developement was complete). And that wasn't a pretty story.
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On March 21 2016 03:55 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 01:10 JeffKim wrote:On March 20 2016 13:08 TheEmulator wrote:On March 20 2016 11:55 BeStFAN wrote:On March 20 2016 11:46 PtitDrogo wrote:
Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so. read carefully into his post It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. His main point is: don't waste mental energy complaining; he's also implying that you shouldn't be using "the game isn't optimal enough for me (how i play what i play)" as a line of reasoning as a professional player. Instead: focus on improvement But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene. This is following the main point; He's not saying: you need to be more korean you need to not be a foreigner. He's saying: Use beating Koreans as a benchmark for your improvement. If the scene as a whole focuses on getting better then it follows that there will be more foreigner vs korean upsets. But that's not his main point. It's: improve. If you're a progamer then you need to be constantly trying to get better. Also important to note he's probably not referring to every single foreign player, so if you are trying your best there's no need to get insulted by his blog. Totally agreed. Anyone's capable of anything, region has nothing to do with it. It's about work ethic, the person's mentality towards the game, and dedication towards the game. Koreans are not genetically superior to non-Koreans to play an RTS game, despite the majority of people being under a similar impression. it would seem that pitching a baseball is the same. it has nothing to do with being American and speaking English. and it is an entirely individual pursuit. theoretically, any one can be the best baseball pitcher. long meandering story. + Show Spoiler +Let us imagine a french speaking guy living only a 3 hour drive north of the Boston Red Sox home park. and lets imagine this Canadian town is a french speaking hockey-town. and let's pretend our imaginary guy is named Eric Gagne.
He has only 1 path to becoming the best baseball pitcher on planet earth. Move South, learn english and surround himself with the best of the best in the baseball world. And these guys speak English and Spanish. They don't speak french.
THe probability of Eric Gagne reaching the levels he did by staying in Quebec is approximately zero.
His route to being #1 was tougher than any kid born in California in some town that produces Major League Baseball players by the dozen. But he wanted to be #1 so he did the extra work.
This is how region impacts competitive pursuits. Non-Koreans will have to do more work.. that's just the way it is. Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 03:21 BeStFAN wrote:
all the best chess players are from the Soviet Union I guess I need to move to Moscow and learn Russian because it's their primary mode of communication!!!
oh wait I'm Bobby Fischer and I can just study the game and SU games without having to be culturally indoctrinated
cmon dude LOL read story above. Some of that is implied because of cultural things mixed in with the closeness of things in Korea. The "1 path" thing is more cultural than it is situational to SC2. The entire idea of becoming a pro gamer in the US with the opportunities given compared to the educational and job system in Korea and the way that life works there are two different worlds, which is why people who are non-Korean feel somewhat different.
I kind of see your point, though.
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Pretty pointless post to be honest
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the point is quite clear though
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This is a "Thank you, Capitain Obvious" thread, mixed with the occasional insult and/or rough language in order to generate controversy.
Funny enough that the writer has won ZERO relevant tournaments during his peak at BW (at TSL2 were zero koreans participating), so he has no authority here.
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What is this thread even about. Avilo and Morrow thinking about the game?
It does not feel completed yet.
Terran:
Liberator is a band-aid for Terran for every match-up.
Cyclone ...well who gets those?
Choosing Mech= Choosing Turtle
TankyVac and Doomdraps raep your base randomly, with very litte you can do.
Zerg:
3 Larva inject is not ideal..but 4 would be too much.
Swarmhost and Infestor could be removed from the game, and nobody would notice. Seriously Blizzard was not liking the BL infestor and the SH Style. So both were nerfed hard. Take them out of the game.
Protoss
Oh my god.
Pylon cannon is a Bandaid for toss. Makes them almost invulnurable against Terran in the early game, offensive Pylons on the Ramps are a pain in the ass (why are those like they were 6 years ago..still=? Why isnt there some unbuildable plates and stuff?)
Adept-Stim is OP
Pickup-Range on WP is just Crazy. Medevacs take 1-2 seconds to slow down before pick up, and thats how you handle the AI?
If you do not want deathball games, REMOVE the Colussus. Remove it. not make it bad so nobody would use it, but with range and 3 Attack it deals good damage again..add the reaver.
Psystorms do not matter when you have 30 Reactored Rax on 6 bases.
But looks dank.
somehow the game is off. Many people feel like it is still not done yet. There are so many random things that still feel like beta.
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i think there is a big misunderstanding here. I wouldnt even describe the peepz nony refers to as pros. Its just a fancy word. The real pros are "professionals", thats where the word is derived from. I wouldnt know anyone outside Korea who qualifies being a real "pro" in Starcraft. Foreigners are lazy scrubs and all this talk about infrastructure is just a big excuse.
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8748 Posts
On March 22 2016 02:51 KT_Elwood wrote:
What is this thread even about. Avilo and Morrow thinking about the game?
It does not feel completed yet.
Terran:
Liberator is a band-aid for Terran for every match-up.
Cyclone ...well who gets those?
Choosing Mech= Choosing Turtle
TankyVac and Doomdraps raep your base randomly, with very litte you can do.
Zerg:
3 Larva inject is not ideal..but 4 would be too much.
Swarmhost and Infestor could be removed from the game, and nobody would notice. Seriously Blizzard was not liking the BL infestor and the SH Style. So both were nerfed hard. Take them out of the game.
Protoss
Oh my god.
Pylon cannon is a Bandaid for toss. Makes them almost invulnurable against Terran in the early game, offensive Pylons on the Ramps are a pain in the ass (why are those like they were 6 years ago..still=? Why isnt there some unbuildable plates and stuff?)
Adept-Stim is OP
Pickup-Range on WP is just Crazy. Medevacs take 1-2 seconds to slow down before pick up, and thats how you handle the AI?
If you do not want deathball games, REMOVE the Colussus. Remove it. not make it bad so nobody would use it, but with range and 3 Attack it deals good damage again..add the reaver.
Psystorms do not matter when you have 30 Reactored Rax on 6 bases.
But looks dank.
somehow the game is off. Many people feel like it is still not done yet. There are so many random things that still feel like beta.
Not at all what it's about. Let me paraphrase: In the game design process, the role of competitive players is to show what's possible. They don't need to say what's possible or say what they think is impossible. Just show what's possible. No one else can do that better than them because they're the best at playing the game. And they do that naturally by doing their jobs well. So they should just do their jobs and they're simultaneously making significant and unique contributions to game design.
Beyond that, I'm making two more points. The first is that their concern about game design signifies a concern about the health of the scene as a whole. If they want to do the most good they can for the scene, then they should reconsider their priorities. Again, they can help the scene the most by doing their jobs well. Get better at the game, close the gap with the top Koreans. Better play will be more fun to watch and better results against the Koreans will be more fun to watch. The game is not that bad. Progamers can produce competitive and entertaining games from the game this very moment.
My last point is that it is difficult to be a competitive player and think about game design simultaneously. Focus and mindset are two very tricky things and I think many of the best non-Korean players can improve a lot in these areas. They should consider simplifying their relationship with the game to only focus on self-improvement. Don't think about the game in any other way. These thought experiments about "what if these changes were made..." are a distraction and can be disruptive to a competitive mindset.
Thus progamers should stop commenting on game design. If Blizzard asks them, then cooperate and answer their questions and then forget about it, like how a pro athlete answers questions from the media.
PS: Point 1.5: Even if the progamer could contribute something by taking the initiative to write comments to the game devs, it's not as though they're likely to improve the process much. Game design doesn't halt because progamers aren't randomly submitting memos to the dev team anymore. The game will improve with or without the these posts.
On March 22 2016 02:45 Apoteosis wrote:
This is a "Thank you, Capitain Obvious" thread, mixed with the occasional insult and/or rough language in order to generate controversy.
Funny enough that the writer has won ZERO relevant tournaments during his peak at BW (at TSL2 were zero koreans participating), so he has no authority here.
Tournaments relevant to what exactly? When I was a top non-Korean player, I kept improving. I was steadily climbing the ranks of the Korean players until the day I quit playing BW. When I committed to TSL2, I had not played BW for eight months. I had quit and I decided to make an exception and come back part-time to prepare for TSL2. The top players now have stagnated.
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On March 21 2016 03:55 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 01:10 JeffKim wrote:On March 20 2016 13:08 TheEmulator wrote:On March 20 2016 11:55 BeStFAN wrote:On March 20 2016 11:46 PtitDrogo wrote:
Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so. read carefully into his post It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. His main point is: don't waste mental energy complaining; he's also implying that you shouldn't be using "the game isn't optimal enough for me (how i play what i play)" as a line of reasoning as a professional player. Instead: focus on improvement++ But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene. This is following the main point; He's not saying: you need to be more korean you need to not be a foreigner. He's saying: Use beating Koreans as a benchmark for your improvement. If the scene as a whole focuses on getting better then it follows that there will be more foreigner vs korean upsets. But that's not his main point. It's: improve. If you're a progamer then you need to be constantly trying to get better. Also important to note he's probably not referring to every single foreign player, so if you are trying your best there's no need to get insulted by his blog. Totally agreed. Anyone's capable of anything, region has nothing to do with it. It's about work ethic, the person's mentality towards the game, and dedication towards the game. Koreans are not genetically superior to non-Koreans to play an RTS game, despite the majority of people being under a similar impression. it would seem that pitching a baseball is the same. it has nothing to do with being American and speaking English. and it is an entirely individual pursuit. theoretically, any one can be the best baseball pitcher. long meandering story. + Show Spoiler +Let us imagine a french speaking guy living only a 3 hour drive north of the Boston Red Sox home park. and lets imagine this Canadian town is a french speaking hockey-town. and let's pretend our imaginary guy is named Eric Gagne.
He has only 1 path to becoming the best baseball pitcher on planet earth. Move South, learn english and surround himself with the best of the best in the baseball world. And these guys speak English and Spanish. They don't speak french.
THe probability of Eric Gagne reaching the levels he did by staying in Quebec is approximately zero.
His route to being #1 was tougher than any kid born in California in some town that produces Major League Baseball players by the dozen. But he wanted to be #1 so he did the extra work.
This is how region impacts competitive pursuits. Non-Koreans will have to do more work.. that's just the way it is. Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 03:21 BeStFAN wrote:
all the best chess players are from the Soviet Union I guess I need to move to Moscow and learn Russian because it's their primary mode of communication!!!
oh wait I'm Bobby Fischer and I can just study the game and SU games without having to be culturally indoctrinated
cmon dude LOL read story above.
yo JJR
you knew Eric Gagne became good when he got on steroids right? And that he was born in a city with a MLB franchise?
Guillaume Patry went to Korea because he was fuckn good at starcraft in the first place. Not to become good by training in Korea.
You dont have the monopoly on truth you know...
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[B]On March 22 2016 06:21 NonY wrote:
PS: Point 1.5: Even if the progamer could contribute something by taking the initiative to write comments to the game devs, it's not as though they're likely to improve the process much. Game design doesn't halt because progamers aren't randomly submitting memos to the dev team anymore. The game will improve with or without the these posts.
So what ? Nony, I respect you and generally agree with the 'a little less conversation, a little more action' line. But just because pro posts bring little balancing value doesn't mean they're not otherwise valuable altogether. I suck at the game compared to pros, and so I'm interested in what strategic insights the likes of Snute, Nerchio, Huk and Drogo - who have all posted in this thread - are bringing. If anyone should comment on the state of the game, it should be them. This makes the community better, and sets TL apart from the rest. Whether these insights are framed in a balance context or not is not fully relevant ( pros shouldn't be held to the superhuman standard of posting 100% signal-to-noise ratio either ), and also likely transitory given LotV's relatively young history.
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8748 Posts
On March 22 2016 09:17 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On March 22 2016 06:21 NonY wrote:
PS: Point 1.5: Even if the progamer could contribute something by taking the initiative to write comments to the game devs, it's not as though they're likely to improve the process much. Game design doesn't halt because progamers aren't randomly submitting memos to the dev team anymore. The game will improve with or without the these posts.
So what ? Nony, I respect you and generally agree with the 'a little less conversation, a little more action' line. But just because pro posts bring little balancing value doesn't mean they're not otherwise valuable altogether. I suck at the game compared to pros, and so I'm interested in what strategic insights the likes of Snute, Nerchio, Huk and Drogo - who have all posted in this thread - are bringing. If anyone should comment on the state of the game, it should be them. This makes the community better, and sets TL apart from the rest. Whether these insights are framed in a balance context or not is not fully relevant ( pros shouldn't be held to the superhuman standard of posting 100% signal-to-noise ratio either ), and also likely transitory given LotV's relatively young history.
I think you misread my post as I didn't say they brought no value whatsoever.
There's something wrong with every non-Korean community to be so much worse at the game than the Koreans for so long. Something has to change culturally or mentally or something. I don't have the complete answer on how to build an environment that will yield players as good as Koreans. But I think my suggestions in this blog are some places to start. Providing interesting discussion on a forum is of such low value and importance relative to this... I'm sorry that it'd be something you miss, but hopefully the improvement of the games would be worth the diminishing of the forums.
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On March 22 2016 09:23 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 09:17 MyLovelyLurker wrote:[B]On March 22 2016 06:21 NonY wrote:
PS: Point 1.5: Even if the progamer could contribute something by taking the initiative to write comments to the game devs, it's not as though they're likely to improve the process much. Game design doesn't halt because progamers aren't randomly submitting memos to the dev team anymore. The game will improve with or without the these posts.
So what ? Nony, I respect you and generally agree with the 'a little less conversation, a little more action' line. But just because pro posts bring little balancing value doesn't mean they're not otherwise valuable altogether. I suck at the game compared to pros, and so I'm interested in what strategic insights the likes of Snute, Nerchio, Huk and Drogo - who have all posted in this thread - are bringing. If anyone should comment on the state of the game, it should be them. This makes the community better, and sets TL apart from the rest. Whether these insights are framed in a balance context or not is not fully relevant ( pros shouldn't be held to the superhuman standard of posting 100% signal-to-noise ratio either ), and also likely transitory given LotV's relatively young history. I think you misread my post as I didn't say they brought no value whatsoever. There's something wrong with every non-Korean community to be so much worse at the game than the Koreans for so long. Something has to change culturally or mentally or something. I don't have the complete answer on how to build an environment that will yield players as good as Koreans. But I think my suggestions in this blog are some places to start.
The quote highlighted explicitly above states you think they bring little value, at best, in a hypothetical scenario that may or may not be realized. Let's not argue semantics and epsilon over zero, shall we. As I said, I do have respect for you and believe you do, to some extent, have a point - but I simply ponder if as always it's not down to the execution ? Balance whining and cathartic hyperbole can all be done in good fun, with a hint of sarcasm, and taken into a wider, strategic context.
Besides, the incremental time gained for a pro-gamer from NOT writing a twenty liner post on TL is not going to win them Blizzcon either. Lacking an internal locus of control - the idea they have nobody to blame but themselves for not being at the top of their race - will.
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On March 22 2016 09:23 NonY wrote:
There's something wrong with every non-Korean community to be so much worse at the game than the Koreans for so long. Something has to change culturally or mentally or something. I don't have the complete answer on how to build an environment that will yield players as good as Koreans. But I think my suggestions in this blog are some places to start. Providing interesting discussion on a forum is of such low value and importance relative to this... I'm sorry that it'd be something you miss, but hopefully the improvement of the games would be worth the diminishing of the forums.[
This is true - neither do I have an answer, sadly. Couple more points :
- Can we agree the current European foreigner scene largely eschews your critic, and it might be more of an NA thing ? Hard not to view it as an ad hominem. As I said, if Snute, MLord, or Nerchio, who are going toe-to-toe with Koreans, balance whine, I think they should be given benefit of the doubt.
- Just playing devil's advocate here, as they clearly have the better work ethic. But as a counter-example, Koreans DO balance whine. Bomber himself switched races to Protoss, joined a team named [Adept], etc. I think it's healthy to let frustration off when you care that much.
I fully agree that I wouldn't miss too much average Joe going '[X] race imba !' up here.
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On March 22 2016 09:23 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 09:17 MyLovelyLurker wrote:[B]On March 22 2016 06:21 NonY wrote:
PS: Point 1.5: Even if the progamer could contribute something by taking the initiative to write comments to the game devs, it's not as though they're likely to improve the process much. Game design doesn't halt because progamers aren't randomly submitting memos to the dev team anymore. The game will improve with or without the these posts.
So what ? Nony, I respect you and generally agree with the 'a little less conversation, a little more action' line. But just because pro posts bring little balancing value doesn't mean they're not otherwise valuable altogether. I suck at the game compared to pros, and so I'm interested in what strategic insights the likes of Snute, Nerchio, Huk and Drogo - who have all posted in this thread - are bringing. If anyone should comment on the state of the game, it should be them. This makes the community better, and sets TL apart from the rest. Whether these insights are framed in a balance context or not is not fully relevant ( pros shouldn't be held to the superhuman standard of posting 100% signal-to-noise ratio either ), and also likely transitory given LotV's relatively young history. I think you misread my post as I didn't say they brought no value whatsoever. There's something wrong with every non-Korean community to be so much worse at the game than the Koreans for so long. Something has to change culturally or mentally or something. I don't have the complete answer on how to build an environment that will yield players as good as Koreans. But I think my suggestions in this blog are some places to start. Providing interesting discussion on a forum is of such low value and importance relative to this... I'm sorry that it'd be something you miss, but hopefully the improvement of the games would be worth the diminishing of the forums.
While I think it is true that some progamers suffers from a biased mentality, and while it is true that progamers should yearn to improve at the same rate or better than the koreans, I think it is flawed to suggest that the answer is to not at all provide valuable feedback to the game developers through the assumption that it is impossible to avoid the distraction of thinking of a better game design. I would be the first to admit that in my case, my mentality is often flawed. But provided with the right tools to find ways to see through your frustrations, both in terms of improving yourself rather than blaming the game, but also how to think of and present ideas to improve game design. In reality I think the best option is to proceed to improve your ability to give your very best at developing your skills in the game while also using your player experience to think hard on ways to improve game design. Doing this seperately is the true show of a consistently strong mentality rather than thinking these go hand in hand, outbalancing one another.
For example, what I would say to progamers is to never think of aspects of the game negatively. Instead of saying that Lurkers/Liberators/Disruptors are OP and should be nerfed, you say: "I think there are ways to improve this area of the game by changing A and B." - Though this is more complicated than it sounds.
I would set aside your progaming shoes when describing your ideas and instead look at it from the developing perspective. You think of ways to improve the game design and present those ideas to the community rather than thinking you are trying to better your own position in the game or you are frustrated with issues. The idea should be to forward the game with progressive ideas rather than complain about the game with a regressive state of mind. And the latter does not only apply to bad ideas for game design improvement, it also regresses the game development to have not the very best players think about ways to improve the game they love.
I spent a lot of time thinking about PvP and ways to improve it since I did recognize my own frustrations and issues with the matchup, but when I really want to change something, I transcend into a different state of mind. We decided that changing the Oracle from Light to Armored checks many things on the list of presumed Blizzard design regulations: It is simple, does not affect other matchups, is not "too creative" etc. Here you told us that you were certain that mistakes are made in either the phoenix vs phoenix case or the oracle vs ground case. While mistakes are important, we must always remember that while we could technically correct mistakes and through very strong (some would say perfect) execution actually secure ourselves a good position with ground vs oracle, the oracle player may also correct his/her mistakes, and perhaps that only happens when some players, despite all odds, consistently gets even or ahead versus oracle - though I believe this will not happen with the current PvP design, and like Snute said, a lot of tournament games and time can be saved by simply doing the change we suggested that indeniably makes the matchup as good as before or better, and this is absolutely key in this context.
Oracles would perform better versus Phoenixes with armored tag, and since they warp from the same structure, the interaction would almost certainly improve.
It is my belief that Oracles perform, oh christ the percentages, +/- 15% better than ground. By allowing 2 stalkers to roughly perform 1/4 more of needed-to-kill shots as 3 stalkers, I would almost dare say the reasoning here does not stand more explicitly.
The Oracle from light to armored idea will ultimately improve PvP with little to no impact on other matchups.
And while you could always correct mistakes or find ways to improve your position with ground against oracle, with oracle against phoenix, with phoenix against phoenix, just remember it is a neverending continuum of whoever corrects his or her mistakes the most, and it is my prediction that the oracle player, mathemathically, always has the upper hand versus ground, and if there is a general consensus amongst protoss progamers that this issue does exist, and if the proposed change of changing oracle from light to armored almost certainly will improve the matchup and at worst not do anything negative, then the case is compelling to take action towards this or something similar.
A fear I have now, personally, is that when Zerg, likely justifiably, has been sufficiently nerfed on their earlygame timing/allin strength and Protoss starts winning to the extent that they would be considered OP, Blizzard starts to revert changes when in fact they should buff Zerg lategame instead. I absolutely want to stirr the PvZ balance discourse towards this direction before it is too late, and if progamers does not speak on such things, then perhaps the developers may oversee the higher value in buffing the lategame of Zerg and instead regress back to where things where roughly stabile.
P.S. I would not be so sure to say that Koreans are only focused on improving and not at all thinking about ways to improve starcraft 2, though I do think many players would rather see flaws rather than opportunities to help the game grow.
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On March 20 2016 14:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 13:21 HyDrA_solic wrote:On March 20 2016 13:04 avilo wrote:
Imo there should be a balance. I do not think it's wrong for progamers to comment on balance/design when, for example, right now we are seeing games where ravagers are literally being spammed 100% in almost every match-up, or things like mech being completely killed in LOTV.
I mean, i 100% agree with Nony's OP if this were brood war. But it's not...and that's because brood war was almost perfectly balanced. With LOTV...you have stuff like an invulnerable nydus worm in the game...in my opinion when there are things like this that are unhealthy for the gameplay for pros and joes and viewers alike...people need to speak up and get blizzard to get that out of the game or tweak it.
SC2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay different from Brood War...there are many things in SC2 that are absurdly broken in one way or another that are left alone for months at a time, and no, there will never be "progamer solutions" to those because they are fundamentally broken game mechanics (mass air, invincible nydus, current ravager stats, etc.)
I mean, blizzard basically patches so little already...if anything most of the SC2 community should be asking for more patches. It just boils down to SC2 is a way different game than BW and no where near as balanced.
If we all wanna "let the pros figure it out" then GL having 0% mech games for the entire rest of SC2's lifetime after blizzard already made changes to kill mech.
Do you realize the time that BW took to balance? Even then Koreans were better. Always will be better. Why? They blame balance too, they're humans too. However, their way of effort, to get the job done, is way different than us foreigners. I'll take you for example, you constantly whine and whine about balance in your stream, yet I do not see you changing your playstyle 1 bit. I always like to use the example: Hey, if (KR Terran Progamer) was in my position, would he lose? Or would he say with 100% that everything that beats us is imba, and it's blizzard fault? LotV is still fresh (BW and SC2 wise) and we cannot tolerate major changes to a game this fresh. I see ravagers, I see ravagers getting beat down. The game is still evolving, and there are major aspects we're still missing. No one knew in the early days of WoL how imba BL+infestor was. No one knew in early HotS how boring Swarm Hosts would become. Just try new stuff, practice harder, think! After all, this is a strategy game, so strategy should be involved, somehow. BW had only ONE huge balance pass which was patch 1.08 iirc and after that nothing else was ever changed and the game happened to be perfectly balanced whether by luck or the designers were very competent. After that patch, it was all on players/maps, but there was nothing blatantly bad balance wise.
Yet statistically Sc2 is actually more balanced
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8748 Posts
On March 22 2016 09:35 MyLovelyLurker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 09:23 NonY wrote:On March 22 2016 09:17 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On March 22 2016 06:21 NonY wrote:
PS: Point 1.5: Even if the progamer could contribute something by taking the initiative to write comments to the game devs, it's not as though they're likely to improve the process much. Game design doesn't halt because progamers aren't randomly submitting memos to the dev team anymore. The game will improve with or without the these posts.
So what ? Nony, I respect you and generally agree with the 'a little less conversation, a little more action' line. But just because pro posts bring little balancing value doesn't mean they're not otherwise valuable altogether. I suck at the game compared to pros, and so I'm interested in what strategic insights the likes of Snute, Nerchio, Huk and Drogo - who have all posted in this thread - are bringing. If anyone should comment on the state of the game, it should be them. This makes the community better, and sets TL apart from the rest. Whether these insights are framed in a balance context or not is not fully relevant ( pros shouldn't be held to the superhuman standard of posting 100% signal-to-noise ratio either ), and also likely transitory given LotV's relatively young history. I think you misread my post as I didn't say they brought no value whatsoever. There's something wrong with every non-Korean community to be so much worse at the game than the Koreans for so long. Something has to change culturally or mentally or something. I don't have the complete answer on how to build an environment that will yield players as good as Koreans. But I think my suggestions in this blog are some places to start. The quote highlighted explicitly above states you think they bring little value, at best, in a hypothetical scenario that may or may not be realized. Let's not argue semantics and epsilon over zero, shall we. As I said, I do have respect for you and believe you do, to some extent, have a point - but I simply ponder if as always it's not down to the execution ? Balance whining and cathartic hyperbole can all be done in good fun, with a hint of sarcasm, and taken into a wider, strategic context. Besides, the incremental time gained for a pro-gamer from NOT writing a twenty liner post on TL is not going to win them Blizzcon either. Lacking an internal locus of control - the idea they have nobody to blame but themselves for not being at the top of their race - will.
It's not even a matter of arguing semantics. There's some amount of value there and I judge it to not be large enough while you judge it to be large enough. I dismissed that value and you responded to that dismissal by saying that I didn't recognize that there's any value at all and then proceeded to say that the value is significant. If you want to state that you think the value is significant then you can simply state that opinion without misrepresenting me and then saying that my correction of your paraphrasing is just semantics.
I'm not sure what the point is of defending the actions and mindsets of the players. Anything is possible. One guy can thrive while talking shit, another can thrive while whining, another can thrive while remaining silent, another can thrive while engaging in social media, etc. All of that external stuff can be quantified by the amount of minutes it takes from a player's attention and then we can clearly see that they have plenty of minutes remaining to do their jobs.
-Can we agree the current European foreigner scene largely eschews your critic, and it might be more of an NA thing ? Hard not to view it as an ad hominem. As I said, if Snute, MLord, or Nerchio, who are going toe-to-toe with Koreans, balance whine, I think they should be given benefit of the doubt.
Toe-to-toe? No, not nearly as good. Nowhere close. I guess that's another thing we'll have to agree to disagree. If you want to bet your life on MLord beating Zest, TY, Dark, Solar, etc, when the conditions are fair and the Koreans actually care about winning, then I think you are nuts. It is nowhere near even. In a bo7, those Korean players win 95%+ of the time I think.
I think it's possible that a player can flourish while doing a whole bunch of stuff. One guy might love talking shit while another would be really uncomfortable with it. One guy loves engaging with fans on social media while another guy gets torn down by the haters. A player might be unable to ignore the imbalances and poor game design he perceives in the game so he has to write huge posts about those thoughts to vent, and then the next practice session he's able to focus on self-improvement again.
It's hard to give general advice because different things work for different people. But as a whole, it's clear that the status quo is bad. Personally I would not even feel comfortable trying to object to anything my blog said without having my own suggestion on how to improve the situation. I think it's easy to "defend" the players from my "attacks" but there's no denying that there's a problem. If my advice is ineffective then something still needs to change.
On March 22 2016 11:06 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
For example, what I would say to progamers is to never think of aspects of the game negatively. Instead of saying that Lurkers/Liberators/Disruptors are OP and should be nerfed, you say: "I think there are ways to improve this area of the game by changing A and B." - Though this is more complicated than it sounds.
This is such an unbelievable waste of time and effort while players are getting outclassed by Koreans. I can't even fathom how you could think that this is a good use of our most talented players. If I had a 70% win rate against someone and I saw he was writing posts on forums about how the way that I beat him is unfair, while my buddy who plays the same race goes 50/50 with me, I'd just be laughing my ass off. When a player thinks something is OP, it simply goes higher on their priority of things to learn how to beat. It's hard enough figuring out how to beat something, but you want the best non-Korean minds to split their energy into creating a better version of SC? They've got no game design experience. The only authority they have is how good they are at the game but they're second class. Despite all that they could still contribute something but they have more important things to do!! And they'll likely contribute something anyway in the games they'll show.
[B]On March 22 2016 11:06 TheoMikkelsen wrote:
P.S. I would not be so sure to say that Koreans are only focused on improving and not at all thinking about ways to improve starcraft 2, though I do think many players would rather see flaws rather than opportunities to help the game grow.
I never said Koreans are only focused on improving. It doesn't matter what the Koreans are doing. Non-Koreans have to figure out what will work for them. Mimicking Koreans is one route but not necessarily a good one. Assuming that anything a Korean does must be an okay thing to do is definitely a trap.
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On March 20 2016 07:39 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 07:36 Granas1 wrote:
Sry nony but first: doing suggestions about the game has nothing to do with them beeing bad. The game needs to improve either way. With or without foreigner winning.
Also I think its kinda insulting since you are not a pro anymore, nor did i see you on one of the tournaments I've watched in the last weeks. So what gives you the right to insult other people that they are not doing there job correctly, that you decided to give up on? Nony isn't being insulting at all imo, he's just saying "rather than focusing on suggesting changes to units and maps in a game that isn't close to being understood or figured out, practice first and foremost, and only bring up suggestions later", which i agree with.
~_~ "Get good" is extremely insulting in video games, do you even play video games?
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On March 22 2016 14:00 NonY wrote:
This is such an unbelievable waste of time and effort while players are getting outclassed by Koreans. I can't even fathom how you could think that this is a good use of our most talented players. If I had a 70% win rate against someone and I saw he was writing posts on forums about how the way that I beat him is unfair, while my buddy who plays the same race goes 50/50 with me, I'd just be laughing my ass off. When a player thinks something is OP, it simply goes higher on their priority of things to learn how to beat. It's hard enough figuring out how to beat something, but you want the best non-Korean minds to split their energy into creating a better version of SC? They've got no game design experience. The only authority they have is how good they are at the game but they're second class. Despite all that they could still contribute something but they have more important things to do!! And they'll likely contribute something anyway in the games they'll show.
Feel free to correct me on any misunderstandings.
You seem very fixated on the fact that foreigners are performing as well as Koreans, and that totally misses the point. There can be many reasons why foreigners are not as good as Koreans, everything from practice environment, lack of mechanics and so forth. The question of balance or better game design is just one out of many factors determining whether you can win or not. Honestly I would consider such a fixation a mental issue as well, even more so in this context when presenting the case utterly attached to the concept of winning and losing. I do not think any sincere person goes to the forums and whines about how he lost to X strategy and claims it is unfair. Nobody is saying here either that there has to be something to complain about in order to come up with ideas.
Not all progamers shares their thoughts because they are losing. You are painting this with an incredibly broad brush as if you assume all progamers talking about balance / game design who are not in a Kespa team have nothing to say what so ever. To me it is clear that if you have a solid understanding about StarCraft II on a theoretical level the chances that your thoughts ought to be valued are extremely high. These skills will require to some extent experience and the ability to comprehend mechanics/strategy and basics of game design on multiple levels.
My point was never that people should somehow surpress their feelings about something being OP. I definitely feel some things when I play, and I am absolutely certain, as you conceded as well, that Koreans also have similar emotions. The point is to not let these emotions cloud your judgement on ideas on how to improve the design/balance of the game - however - even if you have emotional attachement to your ideas on how to advance the game, if these ideas are good, your intentions does not matter as much. The ideas matter.
Your message to progamers, frankly, is almost definitively invoking player censorship, and if I would be more frustrated with silence and lack of audience on solid ideas rather than my ability to get better at StarCraft II. It is a delusion to think that it is a distraction to talk about the game and find things you think can be improved on while also doing your best to get better. At worst you spend time on it when done correctly.
Good ideas can help progress the game to a better state regardless of whomever the idea originated from and regardless whether said person can beat Koreans or not.
On March 22 2016 14:00 NonY wrote:
I never said Koreans are only focused on improving. It doesn't matter what the Koreans are doing. Non-Koreans have to figure out what will work for them. Mimicking Koreans is one route but not necessarily a good one. Assuming that anything a Korean does must be an okay thing to do is definitely a trap.
You points just seem to come off pinpointing at Koreans on their pedestal, saying how as long as Koreans are better/winning more than foreigners it is a waste of time to think about how the game could be better, though contradicting to what you said later.
I rest my case.
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How long did it take Kespa Koreans to become better than most top foreigners, once switching from BW to SC 2? An embarrassingly short amount of time. That's pretty much all you need to know to realize they're always going to be better. The skill they've built in BW has transferred over well. Fundamentally they're way better. For instance the hotkey usage of non Koreans is bronze league, Christ. I think I remember Nony saying when he went to Korea (in BW) that they forced him to use F Keys. It blew my mind that he didn't already do so. Foreigners put 0 effort into attempting to play optimally.
No effort into common sense optimal things. And, god knows what they're missing out on that it would take a Korean team/coach to point out for them. Then you have to factor in Koreans have teams, with practice partners, where they practice amongst each other for 14 hours a day or however long. That's a deck stacked against them far more than D Kim could do via balance changes.
This game makes 0 sense to play. The game gives no chances for new players. Most of the pros now are the very first ones to play SC 2, who were lucky enough to get on good teams. Chances that the select few of lucky players are talented enough to compete with Koreans, even if conditions were similar? Slim... or no reason has been given to believe differently.
Without a form of revenue sharing, players who might possess the talent (if any) are going to realize the deal with SC 2, the lack money and realistic chances, and just gravitate elsewhere. It makes sense for foreigners to just worry about competing amongst each other and trying to lobby for their race to either become more balanced or stay OP.
Saying the game is dying is a euphemism. I'm surprised more pros don't spend 80% of their time trying to think of ways for Blizzard to rejuvenate their game, so there actually is a thing called "pro SC 2 gamers" in the future. Guys need to take a break...
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What exactly is Nonys job right now?
If it is not "reminding progamers what to do", then this blog is contradicting itself.
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