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On March 20 2016 13:08 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 11:55 BeStFAN wrote:On March 20 2016 11:46 PtitDrogo wrote:
Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so. read carefully into his post It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. His main point is: don't waste mental energy complaining; he's also implying that you shouldn't be using "the game isn't optimal enough for me (how i play what i play)" as a line of reasoning as a professional player. Instead: focus on improvement But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene. This is following the main point; He's not saying: you need to be more korean you need to not be a foreigner. He's saying: Use beating Koreans as a benchmark for your improvement. If the scene as a whole focuses on getting better then it follows that there will be more foreigner vs korean upsets. But that's not his main point. It's: improve. If you're a progamer then you need to be constantly trying to get better. Also important to note he's probably not referring to every single foreign player, so if you are trying your best there's no need to get insulted by his blog. Totally agreed.
Anyone's capable of anything, region has nothing to do with it. It's about work ethic, the person's mentality towards the game, and dedication towards the game. Koreans are not genetically superior to non-Koreans to play an RTS game, despite the majority of people being under a similar impression.
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Norway28718 Posts
On March 20 2016 03:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote:thx for taking the time to create this blog. Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:
But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.
The game is not that bad. You are.
Get good. grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world. the only time a foreign pro will have a legit shot at becoming world champ is if he or she does like grrrr did more than a decade ago. your thoughts?
Hey, I remember that you made this assertion before, more than 6 months ago. And as I replied then ;
'Also, jimmyjraynor, I really can't agree with your claim that Giyom's success was caused by his korean assimilation. I don't know when you started following competitive brood war, but Giyom was basically the best player in the world before he went to Korea. He won PGL season 4 and the Brood War World Championship in 1999, two of the absolutely biggest tournaments that year, and went to Korea in early 2000.
Additionally, it's not like Korea was really dominant during this era anyway. I'd argue that in 1999, there were more top players outside Korea than inside Korea - this changes for sure in 2000 though, and might not have been true at the end of 99 either. Slayer won KBK in 2000 as well - this was an era where nonkorean players actually could compete with the Koreans. If the OSL Giyom won had had 50% koreans and 50% the best players from outside Korea, it easily could have been a nonkorean final.
in fact Giyom is a funny example to use because you could just as well argue that his assimilation into Korean culture and learning the language is what caused his brood war downfall lol'
The idea that Giyom became so good at brood war because he moved to Korea simply isn't true. It is a very different era though - and stating that a nonkorean in say, 2008, would have to move to korea if he hoped to become one of the best, that's fair enough, but the Giyom story doesn't support your assertion.
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agree completely.. people need to man the fuck up. if you plan on being a progamer, you must first understand that the starcraft competitive scene is A COMPETITIVE SCENE. you aim to play better than anyone else on the planet, not complain about losing.
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Seeing the Lilbow fiasco at the last Blizzcon proves to a certain extent what Nony is saying here.
If the (quite possibly) best foreigner at that time couldn't give a #### about the Most Prestigious Tournament of the year, it really speaks a lot about the mentality of some foreigners.
But, that being said, there are also players who are definitely working hard and trying their best to become better players.
It's just not as easy as Nony says. Not as easy as "Aiming to defeat the koreans".
If mentality and attitude is all that matters, at every world cup, be it football or rugby, we would be seeing all the teams at the same level and completely even-matched games.
We all know that will never be true. There will always be countries which are better. And is it because that the other countries are just not trying hard enough or their mentality is bad.
No way. Some countries are doing better because their infrastructure is already there. Their talent pool is already there. The environment to become better at the sport is already there.
If it is as easy as Nony implies, then we should have football clubs in Africa being able to beat Barcelona or Real Madrid just by working harder and "aiming to beat them".
It's just the same for SC2, Korea already has the infrastructure and that's why their players already start off ahead of foreigners.
Working their ass off, is just not going to cut it. There is a lot more things that foreigners need to overcome compared to koreans and what Blizzard is trying to do with WCS, i feel is trying to build up the foreign scene and slowly establish the infrastructure in the foreign scene as well.
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On March 21 2016 02:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
in fact Giyom is a funny example to use because you could just as well argue that his assimilation into Korean culture and learning the language is what caused his brood war downfall lol'
The idea that Giyom became so good at brood war because he moved to Korea simply isn't true. It is a very different era though - and stating that a nonkorean in say, 2008, would have to move to korea if he hoped to become one of the best, that's fair enough, but the Giyom story doesn't support your assertion.
interesting insight.
i don't want to derail any further if u want to PM me and we can continue that's cool.
+ Show Spoiler +
didn't all the best players all hang out together 2000-2003 in Soeul ? wasn't Patry part of that informal social gang? and wasn't their primary method of communication Korean?
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all the best chess players are from the Soviet Union I guess I need to move to Moscow and learn Russian because it's their primary mode of communication!!!
oh wait I'm Bobby Fischer and I can just study the game and SU games without having to be culturally indoctrinated
cmon dude LOL
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this is like the streamer who actually believes using Korean characters and Korean sounds and listening to KPOP as he ladders will make his game better.
that's not how it works!!!
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On March 21 2016 01:10 JeffKim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 13:08 TheEmulator wrote:On March 20 2016 11:55 BeStFAN wrote:On March 20 2016 11:46 PtitDrogo wrote:
Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so. read carefully into his post It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. His main point is: don't waste mental energy complaining; he's also implying that you shouldn't be using "the game isn't optimal enough for me (how i play what i play)" as a line of reasoning as a professional player. Instead: focus on improvement But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene. This is following the main point; He's not saying: you need to be more korean you need to not be a foreigner. He's saying: Use beating Koreans as a benchmark for your improvement. If the scene as a whole focuses on getting better then it follows that there will be more foreigner vs korean upsets. But that's not his main point. It's: improve. If you're a progamer then you need to be constantly trying to get better. Also important to note he's probably not referring to every single foreign player, so if you are trying your best there's no need to get insulted by his blog. Totally agreed. Anyone's capable of anything, region has nothing to do with it. It's about work ethic, the person's mentality towards the game, and dedication towards the game. Koreans are not genetically superior to non-Koreans to play an RTS game, despite the majority of people being under a similar impression.
it would seem that pitching a baseball is the same. it has nothing to do with being American and speaking English. and it is an entirely individual pursuit. theoretically, any one can be the best baseball pitcher.
long meandering story.
+ Show Spoiler +Let us imagine a french speaking guy living only a 3 hour drive north of the Boston Red Sox home park. and lets imagine this Canadian town is a french speaking hockey-town. and let's pretend our imaginary guy is named Eric Gagne.
He has only 1 path to becoming the best baseball pitcher on planet earth. Move South, learn english and surround himself with the best of the best in the baseball world. And these guys speak English and Spanish. They don't speak french.
THe probability of Eric Gagne reaching the levels he did by staying in Quebec is approximately zero.
His route to being #1 was tougher than any kid born in California in some town that produces Major League Baseball players by the dozen. But he wanted to be #1 so he did the extra work.
This is how region impacts competitive pursuits. Non-Koreans will have to do more work.. that's just the way it is.
On March 21 2016 03:21 BeStFAN wrote:
all the best chess players are from the Soviet Union I guess I need to move to Moscow and learn Russian because it's their primary mode of communication!!!
oh wait I'm Bobby Fischer and I can just study the game and SU games without having to be culturally indoctrinated
cmon dude LOL
read story above.
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Yeah Nony, I am sure the game is perfect and progamers are just lazy... . I think this is a joke? Most likely not I guess.
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the irony of this post is overwhelming
a former pro whining about current pro's who whine about balance
blizzard opened it up about 'community' discussions.. and you're mad that the top end gamers in the community chime in on that discussion when encouraged?
laughable
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On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:
But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.
The game is not that bad. You are.
Get good.
Nony your totally right on this. (Some Fanboy ♥)
I´m turning 35 this year (played BW casual) didn`t like WoL or HotS too much but LotV feels alot more like "Starcarft" to me.
Anyway:
I`ve watched nearly 90% of every Korean SC2 TV Match and every major non-Korean Tournament since release of the game. With that said the foreigners nearly seemed to get crushed all the time in the big games. I mean the World Championship of Starcraft and all Koreans in the Bracket?? I dont want to see this anymore and I dont think anyone else does niether, its been a sad 6 years of SC2 and I Agree with Nony that this year we have to have a Non-korean in the FINALS!
Progamers: Do Your Job
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On March 21 2016 03:22 BeStFAN wrote:
this is like the streamer who actually believes using Korean characters and Korean sounds and listening to KPOP as he ladders will make his game better.
that's not how it works!!!
i dont know why but this reminds me of  http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DarKFoRcE
lmao :D
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Nony is right. If even one foreigner at Blizzcon wins his initial match vs. a Korean, I'll try to re-think my opinion towards WCS. I'm fed up with qxc making balance posts, change after change after change - this is no beta anymore. It is a game that should be played, and that's it. Foreigners have received a huge WCS gift from Blizzard and I will laugh my ass off if those circuit players altogether lose at blizzcon, lolbow style.
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On March 20 2016 23:02 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 20:54 corydoras wrote:
Having read the thread, I keep wondering where else the same attitude could be applied. Other games? Sure. Labor market? Like hell - "quit whining, work harder"! Disruptive economy? Ditto - "if you don't like Uber's model, come up with a better one".
The point is: I see completely no reason to criticize people who play the game profesionally for lobbying. Because that's essentially what they're doing. SC2 doesn't differ that much from any other industries. It's a matter of mindset. IDK if you watch sports, like basketball is pretty popular this time of year at least in America, but there's an idea that teams benefit from at least one player being a "talker" or an "enforcer" as someone who will complain about calls to the refs, not back down against opposing players, etc. Basically, someone on the team needs to get heated and kind of be the mouthpiece for the team's unspoken frustrations because that'll benefit the team overall. But most guys aren't cut out to be that guy. They need to focus on the game. They're focused on the game but they still notice things and having a guy be the vent for those things helps them. They don't have to worry about those things because their guy is gonna take care of it. Sometimes it's the coach. It's great to have someone act like this on your behalf, but if you built a whole team of guys like that, then it'd be a mess.
I see your point. I actually follow pro basketball (mostly NBA) and you surely know there is a LOT of lobbying there. I think it's a better example then referring to on-court 'talkers'. There is lobbying with regard to policies (consider discussions whether hack-a-Shaq should be allowed or whether the so called rip move should lead to so many foul calls) and individual decisions (trying to influence the league to reduce individual penalties, whic is nicely desribed in "Seven Seconds or Less"). The difference is that in pro SC2, the foreign scene seems to be less organized and it is up to the players to lobby. If the infrastructure was as well developed as in pro basketball, you would be right in most cases. But it's not, hopefully not yet.
But still, in traditional sports you will see pro players directly involved in lobbying (like during the collective bargaining agreement negotiations) or at least making their voices heard during the ongoing discussions (for example about flopping). I don't mind that.
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8751 Posts
On March 21 2016 04:04 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Yeah Nony, I am sure the game is perfect and progamers are just lazy... . I think this is a joke? Most likely not I guess.
Not saying the game is perfect. I'm saying that the best way for progamers to contribute to the health of the game is to learn as much about it as possible and become as proficient at playing it as possible and then to show us all that knowledge and skill in tournaments. History of SC2 and BW has shown repeatedly that breakthroughs in mechanics and strategy can make the impossible possible. The job of the progamer is to work on those things. Blizzard is monitoring the pro scene and will take action if something is too strong for too long. The real beauty of the game comes through when the game changes without any patch. Players have not been giving themselves nearly enough time to let things develop before they're asking Blizzard to make changes. Such behavior is a symptom of a poor competitive mindset.
When Blizzard wants the opinions of players, they will ask. Those lines of communication are established. In the meantime, they communicate through their games.
On March 21 2016 05:48 corydoras wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 23:02 NonY wrote:On March 20 2016 20:54 corydoras wrote:
Having read the thread, I keep wondering where else the same attitude could be applied. Other games? Sure. Labor market? Like hell - "quit whining, work harder"! Disruptive economy? Ditto - "if you don't like Uber's model, come up with a better one".
The point is: I see completely no reason to criticize people who play the game profesionally for lobbying. Because that's essentially what they're doing. SC2 doesn't differ that much from any other industries. It's a matter of mindset. IDK if you watch sports, like basketball is pretty popular this time of year at least in America, but there's an idea that teams benefit from at least one player being a "talker" or an "enforcer" as someone who will complain about calls to the refs, not back down against opposing players, etc. Basically, someone on the team needs to get heated and kind of be the mouthpiece for the team's unspoken frustrations because that'll benefit the team overall. But most guys aren't cut out to be that guy. They need to focus on the game. They're focused on the game but they still notice things and having a guy be the vent for those things helps them. They don't have to worry about those things because their guy is gonna take care of it. Sometimes it's the coach. It's great to have someone act like this on your behalf, but if you built a whole team of guys like that, then it'd be a mess. I see your point. I actually follow pro basketball (mostly NBA) and you surely know there is a LOT of lobbying there. I think it's a better example then referring to on-court 'talkers'. There is lobbying with regard to policies (consider discussions whether hack-a-Shaq should be allowed or whether the so called rip move should lead to so many foul calls) and individual decisions (trying to influence the league to reduce individual penalties, whic is nicely desribed in "Seven Seconds or Less"). The difference is that in pro SC2, the foreign scene seems to be less organized and it is up to the players to lobby. If the infrastructure was as well developed as in pro basketball, you would be right in most cases. But it's not, hopefully not yet. But still, in traditional sports you will see pro players directly involved in lobbying (like during the collective bargaining agreement negotiations) or at least making their voices heard during the ongoing discussions (for example about flopping). I don't mind that.
Yeah, when you start trying to draw on experience from sports that are so different for a million reasons, you've gotta be careful with your comparisons. It's easy to be intellectually dishonest and only use the comparisons that favor your argument (not saying that you did or that I did, just saying it's a tricky thing to do). Not only are there issues like rule changes in the NBA, but in a more direct way, players are constantly influencing the refs during a game to try to get the calls they want. My fav player in the league for a couple years now has been Kawhi Leonard and now it seems like it's getting to the point where being quiet might be a disadvantage because he needs to learn how to "work the refs." I think JVG even mentioned it last night. This kind of stuff could easily be used in an argument against me. But some NBA players ruin their own games by chasing calls or getting upset about calls against them. That's obviously a problem. And the equivalent to that for SC2 players is something that shouldn't even be a risk, in my opinion, because the best thing for them to do, for themselves and everyone else, is to not even think about the "refs" or the rule makers.
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The fact that foreigners in general suck compared with Koreans is absolutely no indicator of how good or bad the game is. Koreans don't complain because they're really disciplined, but for all we know half of them may be dreaming about playing LoL at night and the other half thinking about retiring.
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nony is right, not much to add to the subject rlly.
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This is kind of a very vague argument to make. Nony seems to agree that progamers have a right to comment on imbalances, but that their focus should be on the game - what exactly does this mean in practical terms? How do you quantify that?
For example if someone like Huk writes a lengthy balance post on TL, is that enough of a distraction from his practise time that he is now 'not focusing on the game', or is it in actual fact, sufficiently minor that he should be "allowed" to make it under Nony's criteria? How do you tell what a person's gaming schedule is, how much they focus on it compared to posting, and when it has gone too far?
You certainly can't make the absolutist claim that they should *only* focus on winning. If there really are egregious balance issues that seriously detract from the enjoyability of the game for the person who is playing, and the viewers at large, then it merits pointing these things out if it doesn't look like Blizzard is aware of them. So again the question seems relative; some pros may feel certain issues are of fundamental importance and are damaging the game, and that they should be pointed out, while others may not feel this way. How do you tell which is which?
In the cases where their criticisms are universally seen as valid, and they have free time that they want to spend trying to point things out to the community and blizzard, then why not? If they are important issues that aren't being addressed I don't see what is wrong.
Basically I feel like all of this stuff is relative. It makes sense that the progamer's first goal should be to win games, that is clear. But emphasizing that is embracing a truism that everyone already knows. To be absolutist is to go too far, especially because pro's have free time and they should be allowed to do what they want. To say their focus has 'slipped' is to make a judgement that can't really be verified by any evidence, or to make a claim that seems highly relative to the person.
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8751 Posts
On March 21 2016 09:01 radscorpion9 wrote:
This is kind of a very vague argument to make. Nony seems to agree that progamers have a right to comment on imbalances, but that their focus should be on the game - what exactly does this mean in practical terms? How do you quantify that?
For example if someone like Huk writes a lengthy balance post on TL, is that enough of a distraction from his practise time that he is now 'not focusing on the game', or is it sufficiently minor that he should be allowed to make it? It seems to me, that in order to be sufficiently dedicated as Nony wants, one shouldn't have the time to make any suggestions on balance, because that is a distraction. But how much of a distraction is it really, can you really quantify it? This is not clear.
But maybe its just meant to be taken as general advice. In case pros are spending too much time critiquing (and we will let them decide if that's the case for themselves), they need to remember their primary goal is to win tournaments and help bolster the 'foreigner' pride. I'm not even sure whether this is true. If there really are egregious balance issues that seriously detract from the enjoyability of the game for the person who is playing, and the viewers at large, then it merits pointing these things out if it doesn't look like Blizzard is aware of them. So again the question seems relative; some pros may feel certain issues are of fundamental importance and are damaging the game, and that they should be pointed out, while others may not feel this way.
I don't see how one can argue that their statements are correct or misguided, or that we should relegate that authority to only one body. If they have free time, and they want to spend time trying to impact the dialogue, then why not? If they are important issues that aren't being addressed I don't see what is wrong.
Basically I feel like all of this stuff is relative. It makes sense that the progamer's first goal should be to win games, that is clear. But emphasizing that is embracing a truism that everyone already knows. To say that it should be to mostly focus on winning games, and only when necessary make balance posts, is something which no one can say for sure.
Already said it's not about time but rather how a player thinks about a game. They're encountering some kind of problem while they're playing the game and having a mindset toward the game that even considers whether rewriting the rules is necessary is not a good competitive mindset. It is possible to dispassionately comment on the game when in a different state of mind than practicing/competing, but what is the point? It's not productive. They aren't game designers. They aren't the best players. They're hardly ever saying anything original (that SC2 devs don't already know). Anything they say must be backed up by evidence (tournament matches) which the SC2 devs have already seen anyway. Most of the feedback recently hasn't been backed by meta data (tournament statistics).
If it's what some people want to do as a hobby, fine I guess. But for most non-Korean players, there should be a sense of urgency to massively improve and catch up to the best players in the world. I think every pro giving feedback is trying to do what's best for the scene and what's best for everyone and contribute any way they can. My blog is giving my opinion on how they can do that.
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