EPTProgamers: Do Your Job - Page 4
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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etofok
138 Posts
the game happened to be perfectly balanced whether by luck or the designers were very competent. given tho the metagame has changed dramatically over time without patches it's save to say it's luck unless Blizzard calculated how the game would be played out in 2016. And maps, don't forget maps | ||
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pique
143 Posts
On March 20 2016 08:21 HuK wrote: The problem is that whining or complaining or the general community outlook on the game directly and significantly effects balance change/issues. Also suggestions made by pros/others can/will come into effect. So when pros do spend time doing these things it can actually impact their jobs. I WISH Blizzard had a intelligent and self sufficient balance team that ignored the community like other game developers or that the game was decently balanced and could be balanced purely off of maps made my competitive leagues like in BW. This is the difference between SC2 and BW. It's worth it for a pro player to campaign his own ideas on balance because it has a real chance of impacting his win rate. The continual balancing act is a real problem in StarCraft but sort of accepted in other popular games (CS/Dota/LoL) because the tools at each players' disposal aren't shared. There's too much rote learning involved for a player to realistically race swap to take advantage of balance or the state of a meta game. It's honestly something close to a miracle that BW managed to develop itself so organically over such a length of time with so many complex interactions between the races. Maybe it can be credited to the lack of meddling from developers. It would certainly be interesting to see how SC2 would have developed if there had been no patching between expansions. | ||
Falling
Canada11218 Posts
On March 20 2016 06:21 HewTheTitan wrote: Temp banned for sassing a guy who insulted half the pro scene? I think Nony asked for some counter swings, no? You can take it website feedback if you have further concerns, but a person that joined this year and has 5 posts to their name could try a little harder with a vet of TL and the Starcraft scene. | ||
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SchnitzelTerran
United States4 Posts
On March 20 2016 07:00 Jakamakala wrote: Just be like avilo. The guy has been trying to save the game and its spot in the e-sports team for years now. He tries to play his best all the time, constructively analyzes his play, and goes out of his way to also weed out hackers and cheaters. This is all in addition to him providing meaningful and well thought out suggestions to the devs on the official battle.net forums. Our role model and answers are right in front of us guys, we just need to listen to him. Absolute delusion at its finest. | ||
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On March 20 2016 05:15 NonY wrote: This sentiment being common is the #1 reason why foreign SC2 has never been and will never be successful. No offense, Nony, this doesn't just come from you. But you couldn't be more wrong.But there's no teamwork or coaching in SC. You never have to speak a word of any language to become the best SC player in the world. And you've already boiled down your culture assimilation thing to just (1) surround yourself with other talented SC players/analysts and (2) be able to communicate with those people. There's a lot more to culture than that. Certainly the web of relationships between such a group of people will establish some kind of culture itself. But it wouldn't require an individual to adapt Korean culture specifically. edit: And before you say the Koreans actually have coaches, they really don't. The player is on his own once the game starts. The coaches are more like trainers and managers. They help you train and prepare but once the game starts, there's no coaching going on. They make decisions for team leagues so they kind of play a meta game against the other coaches but that's irrelevant to player skill. I think that having discussions with players and analysts can be beneficial but not necessary. So many games are played that you only have to watch the games themselves to see a true statement about the game itself rather than listen to words of other players to learn truths about the game. | ||
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BeStFAN
483 Posts
On March 20 2016 17:51 bduddy wrote: This sentiment being common is the #1 reason why foreign SC2 has never been and will never be successful. No offense, Nony, this doesn't just come from you. But you couldn't be more wrong. lmao you realize the man you're saying is "completely wrong" is someone who lived and practiced in korea for a BW proleague team right? it's funny seeing all these really cute posters trying to share their precious "insights" and not have a clue what they're talking about while trying to argue against someone who was good enough to be part of the system, especially at a time when teamhouse conditions were more strict and forced their players to practice way more than they do now. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3121 Posts
On March 20 2016 17:51 bduddy wrote: This sentiment being common is the #1 reason why foreign SC2 has never been and will never be successful. No offense, Nony, this doesn't just come from you. But you couldn't be more wrong. Why do you think so? In lol the west has almost the same infrastructure (team houses, coaches, analyists) and their still a giant joke compared to korea. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
Koreans tend to find more Joy in perfecting the same build, and playing the most efficient way possible. Carriers arent viable - lets only make them to troll. Foreigners try to be more creative - they try to find the games where they can make carriers. They try to outsmart their opponent. LoL and Starcraft are much bigger in society. The internet cafes in Korea and China ive been to, it takes you a few minutes walking distance and youll find one. For a 300k person city, i saw at least 15 with 70-150 pcs. While in my home city of the same size there isnt a single one. If you have 200 people playing starcraft it will be easier to find talent than if there are 5. Esports also explodes in lower income households, of which there are a lot in asia / eastern europe - Of course there are exceptions, but $10 for internet a month and $500 for a pc every 4 years is affordable to most. | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
The point is: I see completely no reason to criticize people who play the game profesionally for lobbying. Because that's essentially what they're doing. SC2 doesn't differ that much from any other industries. | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5521 Posts
I think the method of delivery is perhaps jagged and uncomfortable to swallow (who wants to be compared to a US Senator, after all) but it is really a simple tautology that Nony is reminding us of. That said, Blizzard is reaching out in unprecedented ways to the community. However, that definitely remains a secondary pursuit to increasing overall skill as waiting for -1 adept damage isn't a solution to facing the ultimate opponent. Interesting point to bring up/remind people of. | ||
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Senkii
Hungary37 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
On March 20 2016 15:10 pique wrote: This is the difference between SC2 and BW. It's worth it for a pro player to campaign his own ideas on balance because it has a real chance of impacting his win rate. If the top non-Korean players were SO competitive that they dispassionately calculated what feedback to give Blizzard in order to give themselves the best shot of winning, then I think there'd be more evidence of this ultra-competitive cutthroat culture. It's simply not the case. What is the case is this: Progamer runs into a problem that is lowering his win rate. There are a number of ways to tackle this problem, with multiple opportunities to improve mechanics or tweak tactics, or the problem can be avoided completely by doing an entirely different strategy or style of play, etc. In addition to all the avenues of self-improvement to explore, in all likelihood there already exists another player who wouldn't be losing in the situations that are problematic for this player. There's proof it's possible and maybe even some tournament matches to directly copy as a starting point. Despite all this, the line of thinking that the progamer gets emotionally invested in is this: the game is broken and needs to be changed. I wish I could just say "the rules of the game are out of a player's control and a player needs to focus on what can be controlled" but I know it's not literally the case because these players can have some influence on the development of the game. So what I'm saying is that if you want to do what's best for you as a progamer, then forgetting this influence exists is best for your own self-improvement. And if you want to do what's best for the game's development, then becoming the best player you can be and actually putting games out there to show how you respond to the problems you encounter is the most valuable feedback you can give to Blizzard. If you are worried about what's "fun" to play and "entertaining" to watch as a progamer when you are an entire tier of skill behind other progamers, then your priorities are totally off. The only special thing about a pro player's feedback is that it's backed up by actual games played at the highest level. But if you're not actually at the highest level or you don't have the games played to support what you're saying, then your words aren't very valuable. And even when the actual top players do speak with games to back up their words, they have to be humble with respect to what's possible that hasn't been discovered or perfected yet. The REALLY cool parts of BW were these discoveries of things that the best players in the world previously thought were not possible or would never be viable. Progamers should be seeking these things out. Try to prove that what you're doing is overpowered and needs to be nerfed, not that what your opponent is doing is overpowered. And when a strategy seems unbeatable and is on the brink of being nerfed, try to be the one to prove that it's beatable without being nerfed. You're gonna get a lot of important wins from doing these things. It'll be REALLY awesome to watch and it'll be good for the development of the game. This is the ideal role a progamer should be playing. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On March 20 2016 20:54 corydoras wrote: Having read the thread, I keep wondering where else the same attitude could be applied. Other games? Sure. Labor market? Like hell - "quit whining, work harder"! Disruptive economy? Ditto - "if you don't like Uber's model, come up with a better one". The point is: I see completely no reason to criticize people who play the game profesionally for lobbying. Because that's essentially what they're doing. SC2 doesn't differ that much from any other industries. It's a matter of mindset. IDK if you watch sports, like basketball is pretty popular this time of year at least in America, but there's an idea that teams benefit from at least one player being a "talker" or an "enforcer" as someone who will complain about calls to the refs, not back down against opposing players, etc. Basically, someone on the team needs to get heated and kind of be the mouthpiece for the team's unspoken frustrations because that'll benefit the team overall. But most guys aren't cut out to be that guy. They need to focus on the game. They're focused on the game but they still notice things and having a guy be the vent for those things helps them. They don't have to worry about those things because their guy is gonna take care of it. Sometimes it's the coach. It's great to have someone act like this on your behalf, but if you built a whole team of guys like that, then it'd be a mess. There's gotta be a guy who bears that extra burden. Or a guy for whom it isn't actually an extra burden -- their brain is wired to thrive on paying attention and giving emotional energy to that stuff. But most people doing the actual work are best off by focusing on their work. For SC2 players, it should be enough to know that Blizzard is not ignorant of their efforts. If players are struggling with something when it matters (a major tournament), then Blizzard knows. The games are their feedback. Sticking to your role as a progamer is best for everyone. Let the coaches or the analysts offer their interpretations to Blizzard. If there was no one else and Blizzard was very hands-off and the players we were talking about were not second class players (behind the top Koreans), then I feel like it might start to become right for the players to feel pressure to take on this burden. But given that they're not even that good, then the first step is to get good. Given that Blizzard already pays attention to all of their matches and keeps track of balance statistically, then there's no reason to get in their face about it. Given that there are other people who can speak up, don't volunteer yourself for this extra duty. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Poopi
France12750 Posts
On March 20 2016 23:21 Deathstar wrote: The anti-competitive mindset in the foreigner scene is palpable. I can't help but mention Life vs Lilbow in blizzcon. Lilbow felt no shame to say that he only practiced 2 games or so during an entire month. This isn't even a matter of progamers spending time to advocate for a balance patch rather than practicing. It's dubious how much they are committed in the first place to become the best they can be. Lilbow's statements have nothing to do with competitive or anti-competitive mindset, it's just ego protection, which is a sign of healthy competitive spirit. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16259 Posts
On March 20 2016 23:21 Deathstar wrote: The anti-competitive mindset in the foreigner scene is palpable. I can't help but mention Life vs Lilbow in blizzcon. Lilbow felt no shame to say that he only practiced 2 games or so during an entire month. This isn't even a matter of progamers spending time to advocate for a balance patch rather than practicing. It's dubious how much they are committed in the first place to become the best they can be. it is a cultural difference. best way to gain the competitive mindset is to immerse yourself in the culture of the best in the world. that applies to any competitive pursuit. is that the path of least resistance? ya is it fucking brutal? yes it is. life is tough. ( pun and double meaning intended ) | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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