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It's a bit of a shame that most of this post will be overshadowed by the aggressive "get good" comment, and people arguing against that one line.
But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.
This quote is so extremely true. Balance can swing back and forth, but the best players (usually) remain the best players through it all. Talent usually makes balance irrelevant. Foreigners doing well at Blizzcon would be huge for viewership.
That being said I don't think it's bad for players to give their thoughts on the state of the game. But at the end of the day, balance isn't the thing holding anyone back from winning, and focusing on balance too much will only hinder performance.
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Italy12246 Posts
The "get good" argument is perfectly fine imo. I feel like a lot of the Starcraft community (pros included) went from "ok this might strategy is really tough, let's figure this shit out" to "we absolutely instantely need to change this it's imbalanced and i know exactly what game design decision wpuld make things better".
I think that attitude is really arrogant, and it's a fairly big reason why i've been much less active; i just don't enjoy the community nearly as much anymore. Compare the attitude in these threads (against strategies that were immensly problematic at the time):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/320894-pvz-beating-stephano-style-roaches
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/250379-qtips-guide-to-defending-the-1-1-1-pvt
to any discussion that happens now. It's night and day.
It's fine to have your own suggestions and ideas, it's not fine to focus too much on them. Right now i feel most people focus too much on that side of things and too little on actually playing the game.
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Sry nony but first: doing suggestions about the game has nothing to do with them beeing bad. The game needs to improve either way. With or without foreigner winning.
Also I think its kinda insulting since you are not a pro anymore, nor did i see you on one of the tournaments I've watched in the last weeks. So what gives you the right to insult other people that they are not doing there job correctly, that you decided to give up on?
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Italy12246 Posts
On March 20 2016 07:36 Granas1 wrote:
Sry nony but first: doing suggestions about the game has nothing to do with them beeing bad. The game needs to improve either way. With or without foreigner winning.
Also I think its kinda insulting since you are not a pro anymore, nor did i see you on one of the tournaments I've watched in the last weeks. So what gives you the right to insult other people that they are not doing there job correctly, that you decided to give up on?
Nony isn't being insulting at all imo, he's just saying "rather than focusing on suggesting changes to units and maps in a game that isn't close to being understood or figured out, practice first and foremost, and only bring up suggestions later", which i agree with.
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this is your chance to make an aggressive provocative reply to nony and feel important standing up to a colored icon poster and I'm glad my previous posters have taken the opprotunity to grab the attention they crave
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i disagree with the hate/criticism Nony is getting. He's done more than his fair share of practice for the games he's played competitively.
He sees the mentality of blame the design / developer/ tournament of pros in the scene, instead of actual hauling ass and working in spite of inconveniences or perception of imbalance. That's a luxury pros back in the day did not have and its probably why Koreans just suit up and just do their job instead of whining on twitter.
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But there is no need to get good with the new WCS rules, free spots for every foreigner!
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woah still trying to stay relevant somehow?
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow getting banned for sharing his opinion, interesting methods here in this forum...
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The problem is that whining or complaining or the general community outlook on the game directly and significantly effects balance change/issues. Also suggestions made by pros/others can/will come into effect. So when pros do spend time doing these things it can actually impact their jobs. I WISH Blizzard had a intelligent and self sufficient balance team that ignored the community like other game developers or that the game was decently balanced and could be balanced purely off of maps made my competitive leagues like in BW.
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Italy12246 Posts
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On March 20 2016 08:17 Pawel95 wrote:
woah still trying to stay relevant somehow?
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow getting banned for sharing his opinion, interesting methods here in this forum...
Guy comes to a blog post, says nothing about the topic, makes a 1-line insult to the creator. What a lovely contribution to the forums.
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8748 Posts
On March 20 2016 07:36 Granas1 wrote:
Sry nony but first: doing suggestions about the game has nothing to do with them beeing bad. The game needs to improve either way. With or without foreigner winning.
Also I think its kinda insulting since you are not a pro anymore, nor did i see you on one of the tournaments I've watched in the last weeks. So what gives you the right to insult other people that they are not doing there job correctly, that you decided to give up on?
Here are the two things I've got going for me:
(1) I understand the game well enough that I can see the major mistakes that cause losses. I can see specifically how well a top Korean player does a thing and then see a top non-Korean player lose a game because he didn't meet the same standard. Everyone can see these kinds of things to some extent but I think I'm pretty good at it. More importantly, I'm good at judging how important things are according to how much they influence winning and losing.
(2) My experience with what kind of attitude a pro player benefits from does not go away just because I'm not playing at that level anymore. It's still valid.
If you disagree with either of those two things, then I guess you could think of my post as having no authority behind it and then you'd have to judge it based on the ideas it presents.
As far as me giving up on SC2 or mostly failing at it, there are a lot of reasons a person won't succeed. I've had my own issues not related to the topics of this blog that held me back. It doesn't mean I don't know a bad competitive mindset when I see one.
With BW, I didn't imagine making a career out of it when I started getting good. And there was no reason to even think about giving my feedback on game design. I also didn't care about "the scene" because we were all really just Korean BW fans, following their scene in our English-speaking community, and some of us happened to be pretty good at the game so we got to enjoy WCG once a year (and TSL at the very end). Those are three big things affecting progamers today that weren't an issue for me. That's all that mattered was getting good at the game. If progamers today did not feel like they had to be custodians of the scene or custodians of the game or worry about making enough money, and that that's all they had to do was get really good, then the scene would be better off and the game would be better off and there'd be more money.
The absolutely overwhelming directive that should be going through every non-Korean's mind this entire year is "We must win some matches at Blizzcon." That is way more important than anything else. And I get the feeling no one even thinks about it. My more specific advice to progamers, other than do your job and get good, is this: Your goal is to beat the best Korean player in the world and that match is taking place in early November. Figure out how you're going to get from where you are now to being favored in that match and start that training right now. In the process, you will qualify, so don't even worry about that. But if so many people get so much better that you don't qualify even though you're playing a lot better, then you've still done a great service to yourself and the scene.
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8748 Posts
On March 20 2016 08:21 HuK wrote:
The problem is that whining or complaining or the general community outlook on the game directly and significantly effects balance change/issues. Also suggestions made by pros/others can/will come into effect. So when pros do spend time doing these things it can actually impact their jobs. I WISH Blizzard had a intelligent and self sufficient balance team that ignored the community like other game developers or that the game was decently balanced and could be balanced purely off of maps made my competitive leagues like in BW.
I'm replying just to acknowledge this post. I'm commenting back to other random people but for any pro that comments, I'd rather just let their comment stand on its own. I don't want to get into a back-and-forth with everyone. So any pro that wants to say their piece, feel free. I'm not gonna attack it or whatever.
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This is just a simple well worded and not trying to be that rude version of 'stop complaining about the imbalance which you could overcome if you weren't bad' (defeatist attitude), which is true for some people and I can imagine was brought on more by a recent battle.net post (and troll post).
While Nony has a point, I still think pro input on balance is important as they're pro's and I know there's more behind the scenes that goes into it too (as in Blizzard talking with pro's/wasn't there a skype group during beta with players/Blizzard?).
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If you want to attack anything in this thread, attack Nony's claim, not his person. His person has nothing to do with the merits of his argument.
On March 20 2016 08:17 Pawel95 wrote:
woah still trying to stay relevant somehow?
User was temp banned for this post.
Wow getting banned for sharing his opinion, interesting methods here in this forum...
Teamliquid mods rule with an ironfist. It is how it has been for the past decade and longer, it is how I wish it to be in the future.
Blizzard is in a tough place. If they don't respond to all this feedback (including community whining), people will see them as inactive and unresponsive. If they do respond, they tempt these kinds of feedback from frustrated players, pros and amateurs alike, on game balance. This type of feedback has its place, but the extent to which it should affect blizzard's balance decision is highly debatable.
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I lived and worked in Korea for 6 years. Koreans aren't genetically gifted or special. I am married to one!
I find they just work a lot harder and train smarter. They are also extremely competitive. It's easy for me to be critical of foreigners but there's really no reason they can't compete with the best if they put in the same amount of hours and properly focused effort as Koreans do. It almost feels like a mental block. Like they know they are at some big disadvantage already...
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The problem with the "get good" attitude is that if the best and most well-known players of two races put their heads down and play hard and don't mention balance, and a few well-known players of the third race constantly complain about balance, you'll eventually see the game's balance swing in favor of the third race since their advocates are most vocal.
Were there strategy threads for zerg players in 2011 that didn't devolve into balance whining?
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Italy12246 Posts
I don't remember any threads as good as the two i linked but to be fair Protoss was always the most active race in the sc2 forum. Also i didn't read Zerg threads at all, i only linked those two because i remember how much they helped my own game.
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ur opinion is wrong dude. its way more fun to watch people like idra than innovation. it might give +20% viewers to watch some korean dude win WCS NA and cant even speak american english but im pretty sure it will give twice the viewers to have a foreigner with soul and some spirit and "maybe" a attitude. u should watch the league of legends scene. they know all about it and they're doing pretty well. koreans are just not good marketing, Zest, innovation, solar, maru dont stream on twitch, they dont make content, they dont feed the casuals with attention or content. something to think about (this is no a rage post. u're welcome to give me your opinion on my post)
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Katowice25012 Posts
On March 20 2016 07:14 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 06:50 Chubz wrote:if only you applied your own advice for yourself  When I was good at BW, it never crossed my mind for a second that the rules of the game were going to be changed. When WCG or TSL or KeSPA announced the maps that we were gonna play on, we just accepted them and did what we could to maximize our chance to win. And to even think of Blizzard doing a balance patch would have been absurd.
This is one of the things I've never really liked about the SC2 community, in the 'good old days of BW' there was this attitude that you just had to learn to deal with it and figure shit out with what maps you had (even if it meant playing TvZ on Battle Royal like Flash once tried) and strategies were constantly evolving to fit things even as late as say 2012 (I think that's when people finalized the evolution of that bio->mech->bio shit on Fighting Spirit TvZ? around there), a decade after the last balance patch. It was fun and neat to see, and maps had a pretty good regular schedule of rotation that kept things fresh.
When I first started playing/watching Dota it blew my mind that there was this attitude like "well if this sucks it doesn't matter because the game will be totally different in 4 months maybe I can do better then". I like the constant patching in that context because it does a good job of keeping that particular game fresh year after year, but it breeds a kind of laziness that sometimes you just do the same thing over and over again even if its not that good because soon enough it won't matter.
All that being said there were more than a few instances of a guy like Bisu or Yellow saying embarrassing things about how maps were unwinnable for their race, even savior liked to complain about how hard he had to fight to win on the maps he was given (though for him there was more truth to what he was saying than most others).
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