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I am by no means a "pro" player, but I've loved this game since WOL. I've never had any major complaints about balance. But with LOTV that all changed. Overall I think this game right now is garbage and has been since the start of beta. So I can imagine if I WAS a pro player, I would be very hard pressed to care all at about the future of this game. Blizzard has done very little in terms of proving they care about the game or the community (IMO).
I only played 3 days of beta before it closed. I held off because something told me not to waste my time. I always thought it was the bad balance in beta, which was expected... because its beta. I blindly held out hope that with the official release all the major issues and whatnot were going to be fixed. Yet I was disappointed, and continue to be. It is depressing to think a game I once loved so much, I actually hate right now.
I can only speculate if others feel the same way.
Sorry I think I'm rambling.
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If I'm not mistaken, it seems NoNy's saying that foreign pros ought focus more on things within their control, rather than things that aren't. And that the Koreans are playing the same game, but to a better standard - which has nothing to do with balance.
Personally, I applaud him for speaking out against a culture of mediocrity and whining. The situation for foreign pros is the best it's ever been, what a good opportunity to focus on gettin' gud.
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I don't see how you can fault a pro for speaking out. If anyone is able to know the issues in the game, it's them. If you don't attempt to educate people or share your views on it, then is a gold leaguer on the balance team supposed to "get it" by themselves? I wouldn't advise holding your breath, waiting for that. And, to actually be good at something and continue getting better, it helps if you enjoy what you're doing. Being forced to play the same build every game, a style you probably don't even like, isn't going to help you. Why should people have to quit over the swarm host? So many senseless things in this game become unbearable because they last for way longer than they should, because people are far too tolerant.
I think it's irresponsible and stupid if you know what the issues are yet you still won't speak on it, even when it's to your detriment... What's annoying is when a pro gamer will vehemently claim a mu is imbalanced in the other guy's favor, no matter what the numbers are. Or, how about Snute? Abused the worst designed unit in RTS history for years, and then had the gall to complain about the health on assimilators? You can't make that stuff up. That's as distasteful as can be, if it were a joke. To be serious? Incomprehensible. Assimilators...
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Korean players were up in arms over the state of the adept and they were right to do so. They openly advocated for 'changing the rules of the game' and they got it and the game has been better off for it.
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Nony, I'm glad you're addressing some of the negative/troll posts, but please don't get too phased by this. Remember it's just a random forum member hiding behind a computer. This is a wonderful post and an amazing mindset to have as a pro gamer. Well said.
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what is this post OP?
my god
edit: drunk post right ?
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I mostly agree with nony, however it's still fine to post your suggestions and feedback reports about what you think as a progamer about the game you devote your life to. The more reports the better, because it's additional exposure of a certain interaction on GM level and another data point for Blizzard as well. But what's wrong is to think your suggestion or idea or proposal is 100% correct or has to be in game, or will ever be. Blizzard despite making some poor decisions in the past are no fools and most likely have learnt from their mistakes to set their feedback filters as tight as it's possible can be.
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Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so.
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On March 20 2016 11:46 PtitDrogo wrote:
Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so.
read carefully into his post
It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players.
His main point is: don't waste mental energy complaining; he's also implying that you shouldn't be using "the game isn't optimal enough for me (how i play what i play)" as a line of reasoning as a professional player.
Instead: focus on improvement
But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.
This is following the main point; He's not saying: you need to be more korean you need to not be a foreigner.
He's saying: Use beating Koreans as a benchmark for your improvement. If the scene as a whole focuses on getting better then it follows that there will be more foreigner vs korean upsets.
But that's not his main point. It's: improve. If you're a progamer then you need to be constantly trying to get better.
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That guy actually got temp-banned for saying his opinion on the first page. Yikes.
All Hail Tyler
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I don't think Nony's post should be read as applying to all players equally. Obviously each person is going to vary in mentality. One player might have a completely play-to-win attitude, yet still recognize that what he's forced to do to win is a result of bad game design, and therefore he complains a lot.
Some players, on the other hand, do let the bad game design get in their head and demotivate them. Either you accept that the game is garbage and know that you agreed to playing a garbage game going into it, or you get upset and accomplish little.
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France12793 Posts
Thing is Stephano is gone and there won't be another one before SC2 actually becomes a daed game.
Edit:
French already surpass the koreans tho NoNy, didn't you see the Nation Wars? :D.
We are gud already.
But yes NA should become relevant in games that aren't only played by NA players (SSBM, Halo...), get good NA, stay strong.
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On March 20 2016 07:18 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 06:55 sabas123 wrote:On March 20 2016 03:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote:thx for taking the time to create this blog. On March 20 2016 00:27 NonY wrote:
But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene.
The game is not that bad. You are.
Get good. grrrr was more competitive than any other foreigner. he assimilated... learned to speak korean... etc etc. i believe you must do this to become the best Starcraft player in the world. AFAIK he didn't really learn to speak korean on a basic level years after he was irrelevant, plus on one of the talkshows he did he was famous for having bad korean. The pre-2001 foreigner scene is really poorly documented but from what I've read it was as good or better than the Korean scene and grrr was not the only foreigner who could have won an OSL. If he did speak Korean in 2000 there's no record of it.
you do not learn to speak a language in 1 year though. patry assimilated into the subculture surrounding the top SC players. the language of the best players is korean and patry learned the language while living there year round.
if SC2 were like European Football and a handful of different countries produced world class players and had world class coaching then you would have many options in your path to becoming the best. you could go to Germany or Brazil or maybe Italy or etc etc. you could speak german or english or italian or portuguese etc etc.
However, currently the top level SC2 scene is like basketball and baseball before 1970 or like women's hockey is today. There is only 1 place to go and 1 language to learn. USA and English.
When a Canadian wants to be the best baseball, basketball or football player in the world where do they travel and live almost all year round... and year after year? to the place where all the best players are.
If any Canadian ever hopes to be amongst the best SC2 players in the world the last thing he or she should do is live here. Starcraft ain't hockey. The results speak for themselves.
Tying this back into the topic. Part of becoming as good as the best includes becoming part of the subculture of the best. That is hard to do when you can't speak the language and do not live in the same country where all the best players are located.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Glad I'm not the only one that hold these views
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Imo there should be a balance. I do not think it's wrong for progamers to comment on balance/design when, for example, right now we are seeing games where ravagers are literally being spammed 100% in almost every match-up, or things like mech being completely killed in LOTV.
I mean, i 100% agree with Nony's OP if this were brood war. But it's not...and that's because brood war was almost perfectly balanced. With LOTV...you have stuff like an invulnerable nydus worm in the game...in my opinion when there are things like this that are unhealthy for the gameplay for pros and joes and viewers alike...people need to speak up and get blizzard to get that out of the game or tweak it.
SC2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay different from Brood War...there are many things in SC2 that are absurdly broken in one way or another that are left alone for months at a time, and no, there will never be "progamer solutions" to those because they are fundamentally broken game mechanics (mass air, invincible nydus, current ravager stats, etc.)
I mean, blizzard basically patches so little already...if anything most of the SC2 community should be asking for more patches. It just boils down to SC2 is a way different game than BW and no where near as balanced.
If we all wanna "let the pros figure it out" then GL having 0% mech games for the entire rest of SC2's lifetime after blizzard already made changes to kill mech.
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28087 Posts
On March 20 2016 11:55 BeStFAN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 11:46 PtitDrogo wrote:
Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so. read carefully into his post His main point is: don't waste mental energy complaining; he's also implying that you shouldn't be using "the game isn't optimal enough for me (how i play what i play)" as a line of reasoning as a professional player. Instead: focus on improvement Show nested quote +But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene. This is following the main point; He's not saying: you need to be more korean you need to not be a foreigner. He's saying: Use beating Koreans as a benchmark for your improvement. If the scene as a whole focuses on getting better then it follows that there will be more foreigner vs korean upsets. But that's not his main point. It's: improve. If you're a progamer then you need to be constantly trying to get better.
Also important to note he's probably not referring to every single foreign player, so if you are trying your best there's no need to get insulted by his blog.
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On March 20 2016 13:04 avilo wrote:
Imo there should be a balance. I do not think it's wrong for progamers to comment on balance/design when, for example, right now we are seeing games where ravagers are literally being spammed 100% in almost every match-up, or things like mech being completely killed in LOTV.
I mean, i 100% agree with Nony's OP if this were brood war. But it's not...and that's because brood war was almost perfectly balanced. With LOTV...you have stuff like an invulnerable nydus worm in the game...in my opinion when there are things like this that are unhealthy for the gameplay for pros and joes and viewers alike...people need to speak up and get blizzard to get that out of the game or tweak it.
SC2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay different from Brood War...there are many things in SC2 that are absurdly broken in one way or another that are left alone for months at a time, and no, there will never be "progamer solutions" to those because they are fundamentally broken game mechanics (mass air, invincible nydus, current ravager stats, etc.)
I mean, blizzard basically patches so little already...if anything most of the SC2 community should be asking for more patches. It just boils down to SC2 is a way different game than BW and no where near as balanced.
If we all wanna "let the pros figure it out" then GL having 0% mech games for the entire rest of SC2's lifetime after blizzard already made changes to kill mech.
Do you realize the time that BW took to balance? Even then Koreans were better. Always will be better. Why? They blame balance too, they're humans too. However, their way of effort, to get the job done, is way different than us foreigners. I'll take you for example, you constantly whine and whine about balance in your stream, yet I do not see you changing your playstyle 1 bit. I always like to use the example: Hey, if (KR Terran Progamer) was in my position, would he lose? Or would he say with 100% that everything that beats us is imba, and it's blizzard fault?
LotV is still fresh (BW and SC2 wise) and we cannot tolerate major changes to a game this fresh. I see ravagers, I see ravagers getting beat down. The game is still evolving, and there are major aspects we're still missing. No one knew in the early days of WoL how imba BL+infestor was. No one knew in early HotS how boring Swarm Hosts would become.
Just try new stuff, practice harder, think! After all, this is a strategy game, so strategy should be involved, somehow.
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On March 20 2016 13:08 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 11:55 BeStFAN wrote:On March 20 2016 11:46 PtitDrogo wrote:
Honestly I feel insulted.
I fucking knows korean are better than me, I worship these guys and would suck their dicks to have half their game knowledge and experience. I know strategies are changing and I'm working 24/7 to try to be decent at the game (and failing miserably I know ).
You're telling me to Get Good ? Why good thing you're here tyler now I know what to do !
I really hate the fact that you're surfing on the "foreigners are bad and lazy they whine all the time lololol" wave. I thought that as a experienced pro gamer yourself you would know better.
Koreans do whine themselves ( A LOT) you know, except they're better than us so I guess it's ok for them to do so. read carefully into his post It's not just about trying to be competitive with the Korean players. His main point is: don't waste mental energy complaining; he's also implying that you shouldn't be using "the game isn't optimal enough for me (how i play what i play)" as a line of reasoning as a professional player. Instead: focus on improvement But the Koreans are way better than you. Getting good results against the Korean players at Blizzcon this year would be absolutely the best thing you can do for the scene. This is following the main point; He's not saying: you need to be more korean you need to not be a foreigner. He's saying: Use beating Koreans as a benchmark for your improvement. If the scene as a whole focuses on getting better then it follows that there will be more foreigner vs korean upsets. But that's not his main point. It's: improve. If you're a progamer then you need to be constantly trying to get better. Also important to note he's probably not referring to every single foreign player, so if you are trying your best there's no need to get insulted by his blog.
Pretty much this, it's just any player who's under performing or feeling insecure with their gameplay will definitely fee like they're being attacked.
I wont go much into balance because I could talk for ages. Beta's over and we wont see any more crazy patches IMO unless it gets figured out and patched (like MMA/Boxer BFH builds), we know how Blizzard do it, atleast they're keep us more updated and I think most people turn that into hope for more patches but they like to 'check the stats' as people know.
Personally speaking, I enjoy LotV more (especially as a caster) than HotS and I feel there's a huge amount left to be figured out, I'd say kinda say its balanced through imbalance with all the crazy shit each race can do.
Also stop talking about the temp ban, this is a blog post not general and we're on TL not reddit.
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On March 20 2016 13:21 HyDrA_solic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2016 13:04 avilo wrote:
Imo there should be a balance. I do not think it's wrong for progamers to comment on balance/design when, for example, right now we are seeing games where ravagers are literally being spammed 100% in almost every match-up, or things like mech being completely killed in LOTV.
I mean, i 100% agree with Nony's OP if this were brood war. But it's not...and that's because brood war was almost perfectly balanced. With LOTV...you have stuff like an invulnerable nydus worm in the game...in my opinion when there are things like this that are unhealthy for the gameplay for pros and joes and viewers alike...people need to speak up and get blizzard to get that out of the game or tweak it.
SC2 is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay different from Brood War...there are many things in SC2 that are absurdly broken in one way or another that are left alone for months at a time, and no, there will never be "progamer solutions" to those because they are fundamentally broken game mechanics (mass air, invincible nydus, current ravager stats, etc.)
I mean, blizzard basically patches so little already...if anything most of the SC2 community should be asking for more patches. It just boils down to SC2 is a way different game than BW and no where near as balanced.
If we all wanna "let the pros figure it out" then GL having 0% mech games for the entire rest of SC2's lifetime after blizzard already made changes to kill mech.
Do you realize the time that BW took to balance? Even then Koreans were better. Always will be better. Why? They blame balance too, they're humans too. However, their way of effort, to get the job done, is way different than us foreigners. I'll take you for example, you constantly whine and whine about balance in your stream, yet I do not see you changing your playstyle 1 bit. I always like to use the example: Hey, if (KR Terran Progamer) was in my position, would he lose? Or would he say with 100% that everything that beats us is imba, and it's blizzard fault? LotV is still fresh (BW and SC2 wise) and we cannot tolerate major changes to a game this fresh. I see ravagers, I see ravagers getting beat down. The game is still evolving, and there are major aspects we're still missing. No one knew in the early days of WoL how imba BL+infestor was. No one knew in early HotS how boring Swarm Hosts would become. Just try new stuff, practice harder, think! After all, this is a strategy game, so strategy should be involved, somehow.
BW had only ONE huge balance pass which was patch 1.08 iirc and after that nothing else was ever changed and the game happened to be perfectly balanced whether by luck or the designers were very competent.
After that patch, it was all on players/maps, but there was nothing blatantly bad balance wise.
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