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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
The minor parts I disagree with, is that I still feel that this is Naniwa, and is how Naniwa functions. His apology however, gives it another dimensions as well.. And that this could have been spun to benefit Naniwa vs Nestea, and even Korean play. Very well written, and not long at all considering the content  @ Post below me, Yes I have, a few times Even wrote a blog on it  | ||
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vanTuni
389 Posts
People need to calm down about the "professionalism" they want so bad in esports. Dont get me wrong. A while ago I was very active in the WC3 progaming community, i also played my part in building this phenomenon. But I do not agree with the tendency these days to blame any sort of emotional over-reaction as damaging esports. Do you remember BroodWar, when people were craving for any Korean progamer to show some happiness when he won a game, or be openly upset about a loss? What I'm saying is, in order for our "show" to be entertaining emotions are VERY important. If this was all just about best manners and clean game shows, we might watch the same 3 people battle it out every night. But what we really want, and what -to my mind- has brought sc2 to where it is today, is watching HUMANS trying hard, feeling with them, be angry when they disappoint us, be happy when our favorites win, witness upsets and domination. And therefore, Nani didnt damage esports - he actually might have helped it, because it was an honest, human, emotional, overreaction. And I liked it. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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UnholyRai
720 Posts
Can someone explain this to me, everything else in the article makes a lot of sense? | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
Thanks! | ||
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Eufouria
United Kingdom4425 Posts
What I think it comes down to is whether the spectators would enjoy seeing two players with not much to play for play a game. I wouldn't have wanted to see that, although I can see that some people might have. To these people I ask, would you have been satisfied as a spectator if Naniwa had executed a standard 4 gate and Nestea had held it and then Naniwa had GG'd or slowly died, or maybe if he had proxied 2 gateways? That is probably the sort of game we'd have seen had Naniwa not pulled his probes and is normally the sort of game we usually see from a Protoss in that situation. You brought up Idra's forfeit against WhiteRa, which was a game I had forgotten about. The general consensus by most people, including me, seemed to be that it was ok, because Idra would have probably not played very well in those games, although in that case Idra forfeited in order to be better rested in the same way a sports team might rest their best players in a league game in order to have a stronger team for a separate tournament they have a chance of winning. | ||
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Havek
Denmark20 Posts
Quite frankly, I think it's unprofessional of you to end the post the what happened at IPL3. These are two quite different situations. I do agree with some of what you red but not all. I think it is GOM's responsibility to make and/ or have a format that is efficient and do not allow for inconvenient matches such as this one (NaNiwa vs NesTea). The format of the GSL Blizzard Cup is absolutely absurd and not fair for the players, which should be their biggest focus. If the players didn't wanna play in GSL tournament, the wouldn't have a show or any money to put up a show that thousands of people could see and follow. I want you to consider that and i don't know if you saw the last SotG of year or not, but check Tyler's opinion out, I think he has a good point and perspective on the matter, since he also have some problems, he has insight into what could have gone trough NaNi's head at time. But I would also say that I think it's cool that you voice your opinion of this case, but making accusations towards (That's what I think you did in your post) and flaming NaNiwa that hard, is a waste of good time, you could have used otherwise, taking in consideration of your posting you have in EG. - a smaller post could have done it, I don't care if it's your style or not, I all most didn't wanna read it, it is a bit bias in my opinion. But none the less, I think it's cool you voice your opinion. That it's all I have to say and now, all of you guys can say what you want about my post or me as a person, but i don't really care about it. Honesty is always the best and that is what i prefer to stick by no matter what situation in might be. | ||
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ReaperX
Hong Kong1758 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
The comparision with professional -offline- sports is too general. You need to further differentiate between League and Tournament systems. In the case of a league system matches and broadcasting time are planned beforehand (i.e. before knowing if a specific game will be meaningless at the end of a season). In those cases all games will be played no matter if they are important or not. On the other hand, with a tournament system at hand, meaningless games are hardly ever played out. Usually (think olympics or soccer world cups) there will only be a petite finale besides the overall finale. The reasoning behind that is that without at least 3rd place left to fight for and after an exhausting tournament, there wouldn t be interesting games, simply because u cannot force a competition without something to compete for - even in professional sports. So I think we shouldn't ask too much of a pro gamer (esp considering their average age), at the very least not ask more of them then we would of professional offline athletes. Which then brings me to one final point I really, really want to bring forward especially after this statement: On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote: As most of you know, IdrA is one of my team's most high-profile players. He's also been involved in some of the more controversial moments in SC2 history (most notably, his early GG's against MMA and HuK). Now, as of late, these kinds of occurrences are much less frequent for Greg - to his credit, he has improved that aspect of his play tremendously. But, back when leaving the game too early was a both common and serious problem for IdrA, people (both fans and community pillars alike) would often ask, "What, exactly, is EG's stance on this? Are they trying to prevent it from happening? Are they talking to IdrA about it? If not, when are they going to step in and do something about it?" The reality is that we really didn't want to intervene, for the most part. Even after the storied games against HuK and MMA, we really didn't say much, other than to be supportive of Greg and let him know that we were there for him. We approached the situation this way for a very long time because we felt that it was Greg's problem to solve (and, to his credit, he eventually did for the most part solve it). However, after taking a passive approach for almost a year, something happened that we felt required our direct intervention. Last September, in TL Open #22, IdrA faced Nerchio in the bo3 Semifinals. After dropping the first map to some surprise baneling pressure from Nerchio, Greg's frustration boiled over, and he forfeited the second game of the bo3, giving Nerchio the free win and a spot in the finals. This was, frankly, completely unacceptable. And I expressed this point to Greg without any sugar-coating. Out of the many early GG- and bad manner-related IdrA moments that have taken place during his tenure on EG, this was the first time I felt that I needed to step in and say something. And as of now, it's still the only time I've tapped Greg on the shoulder. Entertaining fans and viewers sure is very important in sports, yet I think there are limits to what you can tolerate if you want to further professionalism in that sport - all the more if the sport at hand is a young one struggling for acceptance: When Idra played Mana in the IPL he called the game a "fucking joke" but more importantly Mana a " fucking idiot" Up to today I cannot believe that this did not have a larger impact on the scene. Why wasn't Idra tapped on the shoulder for that one? Why wasn't there a public apology? This is not meant to be some kind of idra-bashing but rather an expression of my utter bafflement how this could be acceptable on a pro level. Entertaining the fans (i am thinking the bad boy factor here) at all costs is not professional but a mere reduction of professionalsim to the extend it creates revenue. That is acceptable (and only logical) if we see sc2 as mere entertainment programme like for example Big Brother. If one wants to speak of eSports though, professionalsim requires more than that. | ||
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ComusLoM
Norway3547 Posts
All that should matter is that Naniwa is still by far the best foreigner and GOM should have felt lucky to have him in Code S next season given all the drama and hype that surrounded him especially after the probe rush. | ||
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souLess419
Canada11 Posts
What's funny is if naniwa just 4 gated, no one would say anything. Throwing games will happen. It's all about how blatant you throwing the game really is, but no matter what form it comes in, it accomplishes the same goal. I actually found it funny when he pulled his probes, got a good laugh out of it. | ||
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michielbrands
Netherlands1146 Posts
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steisjo
Sweden81 Posts
like lets say its a table of 1-12 teams.. then each and every spot in there gives different money each of every team gotta compete to get his team in a better position to get more money. which nani vs nes didnt make a difference | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
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Beeker
Netherlands1 Post
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The Void
Germany428 Posts
On December 15 2011 19:29 Angelbelow wrote: I disagree, the game does matter. Naniwa agreed to the format and he agreed to compete with.. oh... just the top players of 2011 in SC2's most prestigious tournament organizer. Therefore, Naniwa has an obligation to the fans, to his team, and to the tournament organizers to play it out (after all they're all putting time and/or money to see him succeed.) At the end of the day, the game does matter or it wouldn't have caused this community backlash. It wouldn't have led to his candidacy for Code S being revoked. The posters and fans that continue to defend Naniwa, know this, you're not doing him any favors. In fact Naniwa himself (along with other notable figures in the sc2 world) have agreed that this situation will only make him better if he learns from it. the game officially doesn't effect anything in the tourney. that's it. so it doesn't matter. if you want to put something in there that doesn't exist officially. ok do that - that's your thing. also regarding "obligation to the fans, to his team, and to the wournament organizers" - Naniwa has a personality in the first place. if you don't like it - ok, that's your thing again. i like personalities and every person has to judge by her self which things matter and which not. he doesn't offend anyone. or do you think (bad)manner mules or hatches, nexi, offend someone? lol idra saying "fuck you" or "random fat guy" is offending. not this shit. GOM acted like being emotional unstable and personally offended - i think they have to calm down and apologize to Naniwa and community. making bad format in first place and then acting like a kid whose fiends doesn't want to play the way they wanted. | ||
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lovekr
9 Posts
He disrespected and offended alot of people with his unprofessional attitude in his match against nestea and got punished for it, yet what I see from the community is blame not on the player but on GOM and the culture in general like its some weird unknown thing that only these koreans care about respect, honour and professionalism. Its actually extremely sad that people in this community are so easily ready to throw away the most basic of requirements. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
But that argument lies on the highly subjective assumption that half-ass 4-gate is better product than probe rush. Not only is it subjective, but it is also divisive as there does not seem to be overwhelming majority that prefers one over the other as many people prefer clearly thrown game over pretend game. So the argument holds the ground only so-so and it seems quite clear that if one wants to declare Naniwa's behavior unacceptable this is not the way. | ||
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Bhaalor
8 Posts
Your post is insightful and I agree on many points, but there is something I would like to have clarified. When you say that you agree that what NaNiwa did was wrong but for different reasons than what most say and you cite their reasons as "...related to sportsmanship, honor, and respect for the game." Yet when I read your statement it seems that you are in full agreement with those reasons. I can't help but to be confused and wonder if you really meant to say something else. I suppose one could take your statement as saying that none of that matters and that the reason you are against such behaviour it is purely $$$? At which point I respectfully would like to disagree and say that such viewpoints and ideas, however much $$$ is needed in e-sports, are not needed in our e-sports community. /Bhaalor | ||
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philipov
United States81 Posts
I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. Speaking personally as a GOM customer, at least in my case this is because Naniwa's probe rush did not significantly degrade the quality of the product. It certainly shortened the length of the game, but it offered a novel punchline, and because of how the casters presented the match, it ended up being the highlight of the night. I suspect that on the other side, to people who want to find something to criticize, it also was the highlight of their night, by providing them with the "thing to hate." So to the extent that you've been surprised about lack of complaints about the reduction of quality of product, that mitigates the claim that the quality of the product was actually degraded. It was transformed into something else than a high-level starcraft match, but not in the same way as completely forfeiting the match would have. The match happened, and it was the most dramatic and comical minute and a half of the broadcast. | ||
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