EPTA Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 2
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smashedpotato
Australia9 Posts
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mojo_ca
Canada38 Posts
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Snorkle
United States1648 Posts
On December 15 2011 18:08 Adebisi wrote: I agree with what you say everywhere more or less (could be nitpicky on certain details and analogies maybe I guess) but I think the one point you miss is that games that do not matter for the progression of the tournament/league should not be broadcast. Ultimately if you want to advocate preserving the integrity of GOMtv's product, the tournament structure must create only games that actually matter (or just be ready to not play/broadcast irrelevent games, simply following the precedent they set in up/down matches) otherwise this situation will rise again, it may not be as blatant as a probe rush (and given this shit storm, I'm shirt it won't), but it will happen again. Did you read the OP? Every sports league has games played and televised that don't matter. People even pay and show up in person to watch games that don't matter. That is really fucked up to deprive a player the opportunity to show their ability just because they no longer can advance in the tournament. Not everyone is Naniwa, many players would jump at the chance to be able to show their skills against Nestea to thousands of fans even if they were playing for beans. | ||
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blamous
United States377 Posts
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Synche
United States1345 Posts
Certainly worth the read if you decided to skip over the wall of text. | ||
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TheSilverfox
Sweden1928 Posts
After reviewing many, many discussion threads on TL and Reddit, as well as other community commentaries, the public sentiment seems to be somewhere between 65/35 and 70/30 in disapproval of NaNiwa's actions I think you have to see things from two ways. Yes, there is likely a majority that thinks that what Naniwa did was wrong - but what I've read on forums (Reddit/TL/Local/GOMTV) there is also pretty much a majority that thinks that GOMTVs punishment was too harsh. I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. What NaNiwa did was basically akin to a last-place MLB team, during its final game of the season, intentionally striking out in every at bat. Just imagine what would happen in that situation: fans would ask for their money back; advertising contracts would be violated; and the league would certainly take action against the team and its players - just like GOM did with NaNi - in order to protect its product. Interesting thought, instead the opposite has actually happened. If you read the posts on Naniwas fanclub: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=208834¤tpage=122 as well as the on the GOMTV forums: http://www.gomtv.net/forum/list.gom?cid=0&kind=1 you will see a lot of rage where customers want their money back, not because of Naniwas decision but instead because of GOMTVs decision. On different Swedish forums there are also a lot of people demanding the money back. I'm guessing that the GOMTV support mailbox is pretty full right now. | ||
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On December 15 2011 18:30 mojo_ca wrote: Absolutely yes. It is your JOB as a pro gamer to entertain the fans. It is your GOAL to win championships for yourself. If you do not complete your goals in winning, but do your job in entertaining the fans, then you will always be respected as a pro gamer regardless of personal success. Eh not it's not their job to entertain the fans. That's like saying a hockey team have to play entertaining hockey instead of a boring clutch and grap style. It's up to league (Blizzard and gom/whatever organization) to create a game and rules that gives us an entertaining product. Of course you can argue it's in the players self interest to play enertaining (more fans = more money, more invites, etc) but it should by no means be obligatory as "their job." | ||
Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
On December 15 2011 18:30 Snorkle wrote: Did you read the OP? Every sports league has games played and televised that don't matter. People even pay and show up in person to watch games that don't matter. That is really fucked up to deprive a player the opportunity to show their ability just because they no longer can advance in the tournament. Not everyone is Naniwa, many players would jump at the chance to be able to show their skills against Nestea to thousands of fans even if they were playing for beans. Sigh, yes I did read the OP, did you read my post? I mentioned I don't think certain details/analogies work, in this case I don't think the sports league televising irrelevant matches translates, group play in BO1 between five players is different than a single baseball match between two teams. | ||
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Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
When you lie to someone it suggests that you don't respect them enough to think they can handle the truth. But being brutally honest shows you respect them enough to think that they CAN handle it. I can definitely imagine, at least in NaNiwa's mind, him thinking that just doing a probe rush was far more honest than going through a game his heart wasn't in. Would we rather watch a farce or feel comfortable next time we watch NaNiwa play KNOWING that he's playing his heart out? GOM, and Korea in general, hell, most of the world in general, doesn't seem to see it that way though. But the truth can be uncomfortable. I guess it goes back to the point that Tyler made on SotG, which is that NaNiwa just has a completely different mindset from most people. And like Day[9] suggested, it really comes down to a matter of eSports ethics. Are we comfortable setting down a guideline of ethics? I would suppose that as long as our ethics are aimed at helping the sport, then yeah. But I guess I just still feel like it's a bit of a murky situation. Ethics always is. Anyway, it's just something to think about. | ||
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CrazyGitar
United Kingdom21 Posts
On December 15 2011 18:25 chadissilent wrote: NaNiwa enters game, forfeits. IdrA doesn't enter game, forfeits. How about his forfeits at MLG Providence against Haypro? I fail to see the difference. You fail to see the difference because you cleary don't know, or haven't bothered to find out, that Idra didn't forfeit the match against Haypro, he was watching HuK play and didn't hear the call for their match. Please at least look into these things before using them to make a point. | ||
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Ponchey
Sweden89 Posts
Furthermore, according to your suggestion for Naniwa to 4gate to end the game quickly, it is also OK to throw the game, as long as you are faking effort? I agree that Naniwa's choice was pretty bad, considering Korean esports culture and the recent drama surrounding him as a player. I do not agree, however, that it warrants a punishment. A warning from his coach, like the one you gave Idra, sure! But consider that Idra incident. Should that have warranted his invite to TSL3 to be revoked? Because that is of a (nearly) similar magnitude | ||
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mojo_ca
Canada38 Posts
On December 15 2011 18:38 gruff wrote: Eh not it's not their job to entertain the fans. That's like saying a hockey team have to play entertaining hockey instead of a boring clutch and grap style. It's up to league (Blizzard and gom/whatever organization) to create a game and rules that gives us an entertaining product. Of course you can argue it's in the players self interest to play enertaining (more fans = more money, more invites, etc) but it should by no means be obligatory as "their job." Winning is a form of entertainment. If you win in an entertaining way, thats much better than winning in a boring way. Winning in a boring way is better than losing in an entertaining way, but losing in an entertaining way is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than losing in a boring way. | ||
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
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thesideshow
930 Posts
Big <3s Alex. | ||
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McgKrypton
Malta9 Posts
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
Thanks for providing this insight. | ||
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Emon_
3925 Posts
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Enearde
France265 Posts
On December 15 2011 18:43 Ponchey wrote: So going with the A, B and C definitions, you think it is OK to throw matches when someone has something to gain from doing so, but not when nothing is on the line? Furthermore, according to your suggestion for Naniwa to 4gate to end the game quickly, it is also OK to throw the game, as long as you are faking effort? I agree that Naniwa's choice was pretty bad, considering Korean esports culture and the recent drama surrounding him as a player. I do not agree, however, that it warrants a punishment. A warning from his coach, like the one you gave Idra, sure! But consider that Idra incident. Should that have warranted his invite to TSL3 to be revoked? Because that is of a (nearly) similar magnitude He said nothing of the sort. He said that while throwing a match is something that could be seen as a strategy, trying to secure something (an advantageous place in a bracket or whatever), throwing a match when nothing is at stake is wrong because you'll gain nothing out of this move. | ||
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Candles
United Kingdom103 Posts
In regards to sponsorship. Regardless of how GoM reacted it would have been a talking point and would only be good for GoM as any publicity is good publicity blah blah blah. What I'm essentially saying is that I don't feel personally let down as a fan, in fact i respect Nani that much more. I found the fake game between Nestea and MvP at Blizzcon to be very disrespectful to the fans and I feel that was much worse. Almost like they were laughing at us. | ||
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