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What I got out of Alex's post is that pro athletes don't blatantly throw matches therefore sc2 players shouldn't. It's been said 5,000 times. Mainstream sports have much, much more money riding on the line in sponsorships, and is a completely different culture to gaming.
He makes it out like everyone who watched that night expected some monumental performance from both players. It's been said a ton of times, but I'm just going to say it again: would anyone have been satisfied with a 4 gate? Has anyone ever watched a player throw a match with the tiniest bit of discreetness and came out "entertained?" The very fact theres nothing on the line makes the match that much less exciting. There are a few rare games that become epic, but it's disingenuous to intelligent starcraft viewers to suggest everyone watches these low quality games come out dumbfounded when the all-in fails.
Then the contradictions. EVERY Idra fan got upset when he gg'd early and dropped out. I could be completely wrong, but I've never seen ANYONE give sympathy to an argument where a fan wants to see their favorite player drop out of a tournament. I don't know why Alex brought up the Idra vs Nerchio comparison at all; it's an entirely different situation that was much worse. Alex knows, I know, and EVERYONE knows that if Naniwa threw a semi-finals match he would get 100% shit on by EVERYBODY and there would be very little if any sympathy for him at all.
And ultimately, the hypocrisy. Alex admitted himself, this happens all the time. In EVERY major tournament with pointless matches they get thrown in much less discreet ways. Not a bullshit 4 gate, and sometimes they're not even played outright as opposed to the 2nd most obvious which is a worker rush. It happens every MLG, it happens at the televised qualifiers for IPL. NONE OF THESE PLAYERS ARE VILIFIED. None of them get punished. It can almost reliably be said it's an inevitability. GSL however had no inconsequential matches, ever. Their formats were always well thought out to bring a ton of high quality games from players. For the first time they placed these matches in one tournament, and just like EVERY other tournament, it happened. It happened to Naniwa. It wasn't in America. It wasn't in Europe. No fucks would have been given. It happened in Korea, and the Koreans went ape shit berserk over it. If the Koreans wouldn't have cared, no one else would have either. Not to the extent would have because of the Drama that followed. Naniwa was given every ounce of shit. Everyone admits its a fantasy to place these unrealistic expectations upon progamers to play their hardest 100% of the time, to always want to win and to have honor and sportsmanship and that jazz. Yet, they'll turn around and shit on Naniwa for it in droves over this. And I'm not suggesting theres a major bias just because it's Naniwa. There may be a little, but really its only because it happened in Korea, and because the Koreans cranked the drama to the maximum over it. It's fucking petty drama.
Everyone knows tournament organizers and sponsors have money on the line with every game, which only serves to confuse me as to why do they include these pointless matches at all? They KNOW the players aren't going to try as hard. They know the fans aren't going to care as much because it doesn't affect the tournament outcome. Fans want to see their favorite players giving it their all, and players want an incentive to win. Just don't include them, the entire tournament becomes higher quality. And it's not even to suggest that I want tournaments to make less money and have less content. Manipulate the format for more games played. Make sure they all count. That's it. Tournaments get much more content out of players, fans see the highest quality games, players can't throw games without dropping out of the tournament and invoking the rage of the entire starcraft community.
What also upsets me is how willing Alex is to give all power to the tournament organizers and sponsors. Everyone wants to see players play their hardest, but again it's unrealistic. It doesn't mean tournaments have no obligation to them. If anything they rely on them. It's a ridiculous power grab, even if it wasn't intentional. He's also forgetting the Koreans boycotting NASL over the less than favorable playing times. Was Alex telling the Koreans it isn't NASL's job to cater to the players and make sure the viewers watch games live at a reasonable time? Tournaments definitely don't have that power. You can say it's their tournament and they can do everything to maximize viewership numbers, but the players only have to rally together and obviously tournaments will bend over to a reasonable demand. And it's ridiculous because this is SUCH a miniscule issue with inconsequential matches that has never been a problem until GSL made it a problem, so they're given that power and Naniwa suffers.
And to everyone saying Naniwa didn't have the spot in the first place, it's bullshit. Naniwa was 100% going to code S until that night at blizzard cup, when GSL pulled the rug from beneath both Naniwa and MLG. To make sure he didn't go because they're butthurt they had an inferior format for drawing viewership/high quality games and like every other tournament it happened to theirs. Only they actually televised it. You can argue semantics, but ultimately they dealt a 'punishment' and removed his otherwise guaranteed code s spot, and they're disingenuous as hell to suggest otherwise.
All of this isn't to defend Naniwa's decision. I agree what he did was wrong. Everyone wants to see him play his hardest, but he didn't that night. It doesn't mean he deserves the shit he got, nor the punishment. It was miniscule, happens all the time, and Naniwa is unfairly vilified. Everyone puts what he did at an 8/10 when it's realistically a 2, and he's treated like it was 6.
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@Tyrant,
Mad Respect for the write up to compensate the neglects in the story of Alex, those neglects are very obvious to me. Hopefully you got the last word on it, and everybody learn from this situation.
We in the Netherlands had a BIG discussion on a dicision by a referee during a high stakes soccer game, giving a red card to a goal keeper, only because he defended himself with two ''extra'' kicks on the legs of an attacking supporter that ran on the field during the game.
This was the ''rule'' that must be obeyed, according to the referee. He judged that a player ''should never be displaying violence during a game, it is not professional and therefore should be punished severely''. In fact this lead to a boycot of the game by the coach of the keeper's team, which has never happened before in Dutch soccer history.
I think there are a lot of parallels between these stories, eg everyone tries to make a dicision that is in accord with their power based on a ''professional code''. The thing you mentioned about this being blown out of proportion, I think this is a consequence of incorrect use of power to ''force a professional code''. This overpowering and punishing the all-investing professional, instead of accepting his/her uniques faults being demonstrated in ''unprofessional'' situations. This thing is backfiring on the Korean SC2 community, because they dominate with ''unconventional'' demands for non-Korean players/tourneys. Because we should ''copy their style''? I dont know, but it doesnt work that way, I do know.
I can relate to Nani, knowing his struggles in the past and his winner mentality, but a referee in Korea doesnt give a SHIT, sadly. The referee in the Dutch soccer game, is probably someone who doesnt understand that this keeper couldnt run away like a girl, as the referee certainly would have done if he was attacked. I think it is sad that Korea referee couldnt get their head in a ''atypical'' professional, i think that should be everyones conclusion.
Hopefully Alex and his groupies will finally understand, Korean SC2 community dont understand this, but I can forgive them.
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On December 24 2011 16:36 Tyrant0 wrote:
What I got out of Alex's post is that pro athletes don't blatantly throw matches therefore sc2 players shouldn't. It's been said 5,000 times. Mainstream sports have much, much more money riding on the line in sponsorships, and is a completely different culture to gaming.
He makes it out like everyone who watched that night expected some monumental performance from both players. It's been said a ton of times, but I'm just going to say it again: would anyone have been satisfied with a 4 gate? Has anyone ever watched a player throw a match with the tiniest bit of discreetness and came out "entertained?" The very fact theres nothing on the line makes the match that much less exciting. There are a few rare games that become epic, but it's disingenuous to intelligent starcraft viewers to suggest everyone watches these low quality games come out dumbfounded when the all-in fails.
Then the contradictions. EVERY Idra fan got upset when he gg'd early and dropped out. I could be completely wrong, but I've never seen ANYONE give sympathy to an argument where a fan wants to see their favorite player drop out of a tournament. I don't know why Alex brought up the Idra vs Nerchio comparison at all; it's an entirely different situation that was much worse. Alex knows, I know, and EVERYONE knows that if Naniwa threw a semi-finals match he would get 100% shit on by EVERYBODY and there would be very little if any sympathy for him at all.
And ultimately, the hypocrisy. Alex admitted himself, this happens all the time. In EVERY major tournament with pointless matches they get thrown in much less discreet ways. Not a bullshit 4 gate, and sometimes they're not even played outright as opposed to the 2nd most obvious which is a worker rush. It happens every MLG, it happens at the televised qualifiers for IPL. NONE OF THESE PLAYERS ARE VILIFIED. None of them get punished. It can almost reliably be said it's an inevitability. GSL however had no inconsequential matches, ever. Their formats were always well thought out to bring a ton of high quality games from players. For the first time they placed these matches in one tournament, and just like EVERY other tournament, it happened. It happened to Naniwa. It wasn't in America. It wasn't in Europe. No fucks would have been given. It happened in Korea, and the Koreans went ape shit berserk over it. If the Koreans wouldn't have cared, no one else would have either. Not to the extent would have because of the Drama that followed. Naniwa was given every ounce of shit. Everyone admits its a fantasy to place these unrealistic expectations upon progamers to play their hardest 100% of the time, to always want to win and to have honor and sportsmanship and that jazz. Yet, they'll turn around and shit on Naniwa for it in droves over this. And I'm not suggesting theres a major bias just because it's Naniwa. There may be a little, but really its only because it happened in Korea, and because the Koreans cranked the drama to the maximum over it. It's fucking petty drama.
Everyone knows tournament organizers and sponsors have money on the line with every game, which only serves to confuse me as to why do they include these pointless matches at all? They KNOW the players aren't going to try as hard. They know the fans aren't going to care as much because it doesn't affect the tournament outcome. Fans want to see their favorite players giving it their all, and players want an incentive to win. Just don't include them, the entire tournament becomes higher quality. And it's not even to suggest that I want tournaments to make less money and have less content. Manipulate the format for more games played. Make sure they all count. That's it. Tournaments get much more content out of players, fans see the highest quality games, players can't throw games without dropping out of the tournament and invoking the rage of the entire starcraft community.
What also upsets me is how willing Alex is to give all power to the tournament organizers and sponsors. Everyone wants to see players play their hardest, but again it's unrealistic. It doesn't mean tournaments have no obligation to them. If anything they rely on them. It's a ridiculous power grab, even if it wasn't intentional. He's also forgetting the Koreans boycotting NASL over the less than favorable playing times. Was Alex telling the Koreans it isn't NASL's job to cater to the players and make sure the viewers watch games live at a reasonable time? Tournaments definitely don't have that power. You can say it's their tournament and they can do everything to maximize viewership numbers, but the players only have to rally together and obviously tournaments will bend over to a reasonable demand. And it's ridiculous because this is SUCH a miniscule issue with inconsequential matches that has never been a problem until GSL made it a problem, so they're given that power and Naniwa suffers.
And to everyone saying Naniwa didn't have the spot in the first place, it's bullshit. Naniwa was 100% going to code S until that night at blizzard cup, when GSL pulled the rug from beneath both Naniwa and MLG. To make sure he didn't go because they're butthurt they had an inferior format for drawing viewership/high quality games and like every other tournament it happened to theirs. Only they actually televised it. You can argue semantics, but ultimately they dealt a 'punishment' and removed his otherwise guaranteed code s spot, and they're disingenuous as hell to suggest otherwise.
All of this isn't to defend Naniwa's decision. I agree what he did was wrong. Everyone wants to see him play his hardest, but he didn't that night. It doesn't mean he deserves the shit he got, nor the punishment. It was miniscule, happens all the time, and Naniwa is unfairly vilified. Everyone puts what he did at an 8/10 when it's realistically a 2, and he's treated like it was 6.
Amen, the OP is just pure contradictory, logic-devoid crap.
1.- Part of the reason Idra is so popular is because he is real. If he's angry, he'll say so. If he's raging, he'll quit, if he's not pleased, he will bm. A HEALTHY alternative to the 'me so polite, me so happy always' korean mentality where you're not supposed to speak your mind.
Naniwa is just the same. He's being real in his own way. And if any of you haters want this sport to go any further, you should accept individual attitudes and styles. Idra ragequits and gives up on important matches while Naniwa gives up on one non-important match. Boo hoo, please, stop being so utterly delicate and incapable of rational thought.
2.- The game vs Nestea was not something most of us were truly anticipating. Why? because BO1 is crap, because you can cheese BO1 and it still doesn't prove you're the best man. If GOM were so worried and interested in keeping its customers entertained, then perhaps it would pay more attention to either the 100,000 complaints about its secondary casters or, without going off on a tangent, change its tournament structure to something that generates more interest from the fans and viewers. Get rid of useless matches, just like you do in the UP & DOWN matches for the code A to code S jumped. How many times have I seen 'this set was not played' because it was irrelevant? Nobody cried then. Save for the Finals, the Blizzard cup was by large and far, an uninteresting, unimportant tournament compared to virtually every MLG for example. No thrill to any game save for the finals.
There's countless things GOM can do to make something interesting happen between Nani and Nestea: a special super match, bo3/bo5/bo7 with tastosis commentating. Everyone would tune in, that's for sure.
3.- The most stupid part of this whole wretched debate and the OP's key points is that everybody feels entitled to tell Naniwa or any other player what to do. In fact, it's only the sponsors and team leaders that can. And even then, one thing is to sit down with Nania and talk him through the whole ordeal or making an appeal for the fans...while an other entirely is to jump on this bitch & moan bandwagon and just drown the rest us of us with tears.
4.- The Punishment, albeit not addressed directly in the OP, is just more of the same. It's quite simply a gross, brute-force fix to a subtle problem. Finding a scapegoat instead of addressing the key issues. The key issue here is that the game was pointless and uninteresting beyond help. Everyone will much rather see these two magnificent players giving their heart's out in a bo7 when HAVING the chance to go forward rather than PRETEND they care like a bunch of classical-sports hypocrites that the match is actually important and that they're giving it their alleged best when its the absolute opposite.
5.- Drawing similarities to professional physical sports athletes is dumb. Perhaps, if you paid Naniwa 10MILLION USD a year, then yeah, he surely would feel obliged - as part of his contract - and other numerous advertisement deals - to act like a hypocrite and pretend he cares when the team is not going to the playoffs. But until then, please...just stop. He's a player on the rise who wants with all his heart to win the GSL, not please 3 haters with a crappy meaningless match. And because of that stupid punishment, not only Naniwa suffers unjustly, but, more importantly, US THE FANS AND VIEWERS lose great games in the upcoming GSL Code S season. Poor thinking by GOM. Then again, it was expected.
/rant
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Thanks for this Alex, i 100% agree. Nani shouldnt hurt esports like this.
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your team promotes bad manners, yet you find this unacceptable? you sell a t-shirt that says "I <3 Bad Manners" with EvilGeniuses below it.. wether you want to say its your personal view or not, you're still running a company that promotes this. And don't even get me started on greg. This would be like Bill Gates and discussing his point of view of living on the streets and being poor his whole life... The biggest bm'er in the scene is on your team.
What Naniwa did wasn't as bad as the 6pools Stephano did in which the winner or loser would decide an outcome...
The games didn't matter, gom is to blame for a bad structure.. Did you watch up/downs and watch oGsInca lose to a scouted baneling bust with a hole in his wall - to his ex-teammate who needed the win while he did not. That should be what we're discussing, not a game that had no relevance or effect on anyone.
the irony: http://splitreason.com/product/eg/1161
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Great post. I agree 100% Alex.
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WTF is this for crap-blog, sometimes, someone has to do the unconventional ''in-your-face'', this time NaniWa did 100% correct, respect for him doing the disrespect to a BROKEN tourney set-up. Let them learn the hard way, NaniWa is not someone who acts on BULLSHIT reasons, like a tourney maker creating a delusive match...
A am fan of NaniWa from now on, because he choses to stand above the ''professional code'' to let everyone see that GOM fucked up with their tourney concept. RESPECT, to take the penalty, say sorry to the organisation, and go on with revelant tourney is the future... pls Nani dont enter code S, they dont deserve you!
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On December 26 2011 19:01 epb1982 wrote:
WTF is this for crap-blog, sometimes, someone has to do the unconventional ''in-your-face'', this time NaniWa did 100% correct, respect for him doing the disrespect to a BROKEN tourney set-up. Let them learn the hard way, NaniWa is not someone who acts on BULLSHIT reasons, like a tourney maker creating a delusive match...
A am fan of NaniWa from now on, because he choses to stand above the ''professional code'' to let everyone see that GOM fucked up with their tourney concept. RESPECT, to take the penalty, say sorry to the organisation, and go on with revelant tourney is the future... pls Nani dont enter code S, they dont deserve you!
??? Break etiquette, don't join most prestigious tournament... Naniwa = 100% correct + a bamf to boot
I think you should read some of the more thoughtful replies to mellow your thoughts -.- I mean you can support Naniwa, but... uhhh... ok
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On December 27 2011 03:11 CeriseCherries wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2011 19:01 epb1982 wrote:
WTF is this for crap-blog, sometimes, someone has to do the unconventional ''in-your-face'', this time NaniWa did 100% correct, respect for him doing the disrespect to a BROKEN tourney set-up. Let them learn the hard way, NaniWa is not someone who acts on BULLSHIT reasons, like a tourney maker creating a delusive match...
A am fan of NaniWa from now on, because he choses to stand above the ''professional code'' to let everyone see that GOM fucked up with their tourney concept. RESPECT, to take the penalty, say sorry to the organisation, and go on with revelant tourney is the future... pls Nani dont enter code S, they dont deserve you! ??? Break etiquette, don't join most prestigious tournament... Naniwa = 100% correct + a bamf to boot I think you should read some of the more thoughtful replies to mellow your thoughts -.- I mean you can support Naniwa, but... uhhh... ok
I think NaniWa went in, thinking he would show the world the best playing of SC2. And indeed he failed in showcasing his unique unbeatable style (which he is known for after his unbelievable 23-24? kill streak during the MLG Dallas), thus he went disillusioned after 3-0 intense close matches (heavily decided by luck factor).
He didnt think about failing, the tourney managers have to think about letting a player deal with his emotions after failing!
They chose this format with certain risks, probably knowing these risks. Then they state with the marketing formula that the tourney is one of the most relevant/most at stake tourneys of the year (which is BS, in my opinion). So my conclusion is they hype and pump an potential defective tourney format, as if it is the greatest and best ever?!? strange, right?
I think they went flat on their nose, and blamed the foreign player NaniWa for exposing their precious hollow and superficial tourney. So maybe they WANT to do some EXPLANATION, or better to drop the F*cking arrogant attitude ''we dont need to explain to any foreign sucker, because we ARE the tourney''
So, Alex and his groupies: stop defending the Korean, be a foreigner. We dont understand them, they dont understand us. Who is the fault?
I dont know, but THEY need to be understandable, otherwise I think they are pretty dump, or a least not smart.
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On December 28 2011 06:17 epb1982 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2011 03:11 CeriseCherries wrote:On December 26 2011 19:01 epb1982 wrote:
WTF is this for crap-blog, sometimes, someone has to do the unconventional ''in-your-face'', this time NaniWa did 100% correct, respect for him doing the disrespect to a BROKEN tourney set-up. Let them learn the hard way, NaniWa is not someone who acts on BULLSHIT reasons, like a tourney maker creating a delusive match...
A am fan of NaniWa from now on, because he choses to stand above the ''professional code'' to let everyone see that GOM fucked up with their tourney concept. RESPECT, to take the penalty, say sorry to the organisation, and go on with revelant tourney is the future... pls Nani dont enter code S, they dont deserve you! ??? Break etiquette, don't join most prestigious tournament... Naniwa = 100% correct + a bamf to boot I think you should read some of the more thoughtful replies to mellow your thoughts -.- I mean you can support Naniwa, but... uhhh... ok I think NaniWa went in, thinking he would show the world the best playing of SC2. And indeed he failed in showcasing his unique unbeatable style (which he is known for after his unbelievable 23-24? kill streak during the MLG Dallas), thus he went disillusioned after 3-0 intense close matches (heavily decided by luck factor). He didnt think about failing, the tourney managers have to think about letting a player deal with his emotions after failing! They chose this format with certain risks, probably knowing these risks. Then they state with the marketing formula that the tourney is one of the most relevant/most at stake tourneys of the year (which is BS, in my opinion). So my conclusion is they hype and pump an potential defective tourney format, as if it is the greatest and best ever?!? strange, right? I think they went flat on their nose, and blamed the foreign player NaniWa for exposing their precious hollow and superficial tourney. So maybe they WANT to do some EXPLANATION, or better to drop the F*cking arrogant attitude ''we dont need to explain to any foreign sucker, because we ARE the tourney'' So, Alex and his groupies: stop defending the Korean, be a foreigner. We dont understand them, they dont understand us. Who is the fault? I dont know, but THEY need to be understandable, otherwise I think they are pretty dump, or a least not smart.
The match was pointless in the context of the tournament, but incredibly important for Naniwa's team, GOM and indeed Naniwa himself. This was the grudge match against NesTea that many sc2 fans wanted to see and were instead denied. By at least playing it out Naniwa still intentionally loses but without damaging the profitability of himself and the tourney in the process.
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@britwrangler
''The match was pointless in the context of the tournament, but incredibly important for Naniwa's team, GOM and indeed Naniwa himself. This was the grudge match against NesTea that many sc2 fans wanted to see and were instead denied. By at least playing it out Naniwa still intentionally loses but without damaging the profitability of himself and the tourney in the process.''
Passive aggressive reaction against his own best interest, I hope NaniWa can keep it together next time. I agreed completely from the beginning that the fault is primarily on NaniWa. It is BS that he had to quit a serious game on stage b/c he's completely pissed off. But should a pro-gamer think about more than winning a game?
I dont care about him being a pussy for throwing a game away, i only care that i see the best / peak performance and skills of the pro-gamers when a lot is on stake. So, he must be bashed for his off-perfomance during the tourney, not for the disrespect toward ''the world''... it just pisses me off!
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Pinging this post as well. EG needs to make a statement or a response with regards to the Idra/Alive showmatch. Punish or protect, I don't care. But what you do now will help define what kind of team EG is, and what kind of culture Western e-sports will have. We already know what the Korean response would be.
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I'm glad somebody bumped this because I would LOVE to see alex actually respond. Please let us know if you are sincere about what you said earlier or if it was just empty words.
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EPT
