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Agree with the vieuw as explained by the op.
There is maybe a solution to completely eliminate "meaningless" matches.
This solution would be to introduce a rating list based on all official tournament and league games (gsl esl etcetera)
Every match then has an impact on a players rating and as such a meaning.
Will players find their rating important enough to always put an effort?
I think yes, if we look at the chess world players take great pride in their elo (a.k.a ego lol) rating and the rating list wich is published every month and updated after every game is a huge status symbol.
Maybe implement a similar list for starcraft , not one based on ladder games but one solely based on all matches played on pro tournaments and leagues, and make that list popular.
Players then have an incentive to get a rating as high as possible and this incentive will be huge, the ones on top of the list WILL be considered the best players.
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Thank you EGAlex for giving us a perspective that is actually more from the viewpoint of GOM than GOM would like to admit. I definitely agree that at the end of the day, they want to sell their product, and if things like 6 probe rush (which is clearly an unwinnable strategy) occur they are far more worried about them losing consumers of their product than any sort of "honor" code or what have you.
In another, completely related point, to all of you saying "blah blah IdrA this IdrA that" you clearly didn't understand the article. Alex's job is to sell his product, EG, of course he is going to defend his player. If he didn't that would be a horrible business move.
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GOM usually does not play out 'unimportant' matches, but I think in this case, what with the all-star lineup of the Blizzard Cup, every match was important to viewers. The cup offered great games, all of which were like a high-caliber showmatch in terms of player skill and spectator draw. I understand why GOM would want to televise the Naniwa vs Nestea game, because they knew people would still want to watch it. Even if they were both out of the tournament, it was still good content. So I can see why GOM is upset with Naniwa's actions, and I can see why Korean gamers (who consistently cite their desire to create good games for the viewers as one of their top goals in televised matches) are questioning Naniwa's professionalism. In cases such as this tournament I think it should be made clear to the players that while it is an elimination tournament, their audience still wants to see the losers' games, because they would still be great games to watch. That's why they played and televised the game and that's why people are upset about what happened. Naniwa didn't respect or wasn't aware of the audience's desire to watch him and Nestea play or GOM's desire to show it, which I hope he has been made aware of, along with any other pro gamers who thought the same way.
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I'm with you on everything Alex but I contend that just because major sports have meaningless games in their format doesn't mean we have to have them in esports. We can be better and more efficient.
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I want to preface my post by saying I am a huge EG fan, and especially an idrA fan.
However, that does not mean I take every post from anyone on the EG team and proclaim it as treasure without actually thinking a bit about its contents - this is especially addressed to all the schmoozers who replied: "o_o AMAZING post!!!". I am sure the poster does not require such meaningless validation.
Now to the actual analysis. I think the post is extremely hypocritical. Sure, all the pro-teams and franchises (GOMTV, MLG) want to make money. Sure, it's more than reasonable to punish a player that disrespects - or is perceived as disrespecting - the producers/fans/other players, etc. What is NOT reasonable is to make up rules or hand out extremely harsh punishments that alienates many other players/fans that will inadvertently disagree.
Let me point this out how Mr. EG Alex actually handled a very SIMILAR situation.
"My point is that in all of the scenarios, examples, and hypotheticals I've outlined above, the player or team - at the very least - still did its job, put on a show for the spectators, and delivered a quality product to its respective league. All of them, of course, except for the one we're all so feverishly discussing. "
So how did idrA's forfeits against WhiteRa and Nerchio put on a good show?
Regardless, EG Alex did not fire idrA or cut his salary for his repeated forfeits or bad mannerisms. He knew this would hurt his business. Maybe idrA would leave - taking away a huge chunk of fans and revenue away from the team.
Same applies to GOMTV and their ridiculous punishment. It's not like Naniwa forfeited repeatedly or BM-ed the opponents in all his matches. This was a first instance of bad judgement and action on his part. Did he deserve punishment? Sure, I can't argue against that. But GOMTV should have just warned him or given him a small fine instead of taking away his spot and taking such a radical measure for a first offense. The fact that it spurred such negative reactions is a testament of it. By the way, I disagree with the 65/35 and 70/30 - the statistic is subjective and not based on any measurements - personally I believe it is much closer to 50/50, especially with regards to the harshness of the decision.
Answer us this, Mr. Alex, would you believe suspending idrA after one of his first offenses, or even after his Nerchio forfeit acceptable? Obviously not, since you did not do it. So please stop asking everyone else to accept GOMTV's punishment as acceptable.
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On December 19 2011 10:42 revan89 wrote:
I want to preface my post by saying I am a huge EG fan, and especially an idrA fan.
However, that does not mean I take every post from anyone on the EG team and proclaim it as treasure without actually thinking a bit about its contents - this is especially addressed to all the schmoozers who replied: "o_o AMAZING post!!!". I am sure the poster does not require such meaningless validation.
Now to the actual analysis. I think the post is extremely hypocritical. Sure, all the pro-teams and franchises (GOMTV, MLG) want to make money. Sure, it's more than reasonable to punish a player that disrespects - or is perceived as disrespecting - the producers/fans/other players, etc. What is NOT reasonable is to make up rules or hand out extremely harsh punishments that alienates many other players/fans that will inadvertently disagree.
Let me point this out how Mr. EG Alex actually handled a very SIMILAR situation.
"My point is that in all of the scenarios, examples, and hypotheticals I've outlined above, the player or team - at the very least - still did its job, put on a show for the spectators, and delivered a quality product to its respective league. All of them, of course, except for the one we're all so feverishly discussing. "
So how did idrA's forfeits against WhiteRa and Nerchio put on a good show?
Regardless, EG Alex did not fire idrA or cut his salary for his repeated forfeits or bad mannerisms. He knew this would hurt his business. Maybe idrA would leave - taking away a huge chunk of fans and revenue away from the team.
Same applies to GOMTV and their ridiculous punishment. It's not like Naniwa forfeited repeatedly or BM-ed the opponents in all his matches. This was a first instance of bad judgement and action on his part. Did he deserve punishment? Sure, I can't argue against that. But GOMTV should have just warned him or given him a small fine instead of taking away his spot and taking such a radical measure for a first offense. The fact that it spurred such negative reactions is a testament of it. By the way, I disagree with the 65/35 and 70/30 - the statistic is subjective and not based on any measurements - personally I believe it is much closer to 50/50, especially with regards to the harshness of the decision.
Answer us this, Mr. Alex, would you believe suspending idrA after one of his first offenses, or even after his Nerchio forfeit acceptable? Obviously not, since you did not do it. So please stop asking everyone else to accept GOMTV's punishment as acceptable.
I am not sure how a recommendation from a single-post critic would affect anyone's opinion, but thanks for sharing yours, I guess. Did you get your account solely to criticize Alex with some anonymous account? Because it really seems that way and if so, I really don't think that was necessary...
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I think that the incident was actually good for GOMTV, if Naniwa hadn't left the game I dont think everyone would have been talking about a match that didn't matter the next day unless it was somehow this epic hour long game. I also don't think that anyone will no longer watch GOM because of one "bad game". I think with this situation the punishment was pretty harsh.
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The difference, Alex, is that for a MLB match of the end of regular season, people paid their seat for this particular match.
In the case of naniwa, people paid for a package of games (i.e a tournament or a whole season) including several matches per day. And what interests people is to watch games with a minimum of pressure.
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On December 19 2011 21:48 BoYoB wrote:
The difference, Alex, is that for a MLB match of the end of regular season, people paid their seat for this particular match.
In the case of naniwa, people paid for a package of games (i.e a tournament or a whole season) including several matches per day. And what interests people is to watch games with a minimum of pressure.
On what earth does a Naniwa vs Nestea match, which is televised by GOM.TV not matter?
This is a good match for a broadcaster and tons of people would have watched it... I mean people look other people "mauling" the ladder all the time... And a "practise" game of Naniwa vs Nestea is suddenly not important enough to watch?
Kidding?
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Games do not need to be "meaningful" to be entertaining. Thousands of people watch ladder streams for entertainment. Games need to be, first and foremost, entertaining to be profitable. I'd sooner watch well played matches that have no consequence than someone getting rolled over for some tournament result.
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I agree for the most part.
Edit: I guess I should say what I disagree with. I don't agree that the difference between the circumstances are that Idra and Nerchio fulfilled what they were suppose to do (pleasing the fans, sponsors, other people that pay to have them play).
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It came down to NaNiwa not understanding and not predicting other people's emotions. He just didn't know people's reactions would be this volatile. Now that he knows, he won't do something like this again. That's how it is for him, and for him it has nothing to do with a letter game of scenarios; that's for everyone else to worry about and spend his or her time discussing. For him, there probably is no A, B, and C, but only benefit and detriment. And now he's identified a detriment.
Hopefully they do change the format, though. The A, B, and C kind of games usually only produce quality entertainment if there is drama about them like this time.
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I don't see how anybody could actually agree with this blog post. It's like a case study in false analogies. If I were teaching a debate class and I wanted to give people examples of how to incorrectly demonstrate similarities between two seemingly similar things, I would just link them to this thread. I get that everybody loves the idea of esports being treated the same as real sports, but you can't compare an individual playing back-to-back matches for a teacher's salary getting burned out and throwing a single game, one of many that he had to play that day or week, to an entire team of million-dollar-a-year professionals all collectively throwing the only game they will play that week. I'm sorry, these situations just aren't congruent at all. A better analogy would be comparing this one 10 minute match to a team benching a player for half a game, which they do ALL THE TIME.
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You, sir Garfield, have just won the internet.
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You dont simply get it, shame on you being a CEO!!!
''I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. ''
WOW, such an epic fail of understanding! FAIL! Flat on the nose! Sorry EG-guy, you just lost your credibility.
This is why: Nani DID a GREAT job, punishing the tourney makers for their letting nonense match-ups happen... I was GLAD to go on to the next match, because of Nani's action...
Read my other posts, then you understand, that this ''blog'' is biased as hell. The only way to perceive this matter is as follows:
Nani: be a guy, accept that you can also fail and PLAY for FUN if you cant WIN.
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On December 15 2011 18:25 chadissilent wrote:
NaNiwa enters game, forfeits. IdrA doesn't enter game, forfeits. How about his forfeits at MLG Providence against Haypro? I fail to see the difference.
User was temp banned for this post.
One entered the game. One didn't.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 20 2011 07:18 epb1982 wrote:
You dont simply get it, shame on you being a CEO!!!
''I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. ''
WOW, such an epic fail of understanding! FAIL! Flat on the nose! Sorry EG-guy, you just lost your credibility.
This is why: Nani DID a GREAT job, punishing the tourney makers for their letting nonense match-ups happen... I was GLAD to go on to the next match, because of Nani's action...
Read my other posts, then you understand, that this ''blog'' is biased as hell. The only way to perceive this matter is as follows:
Nani: be a guy, accept that you can also fail and PLAY for FUN if you cant WIN.
Seems to me that you simply don't get it as well.
This tournament is an invitational tournament - meaning everyone invited will share a bit of the total prize pool.
This means you are paid to be here and to play the matches, and now you just make a fool out of everyone when you find out you can't make more money?
The format of tournament was given to you. If you didn't like it and want to punish the organizer, you can refuse to play in the tournament when they invited you.
You can even publicly make a huge post about refusing to play in Blizzard Cup AND denouncing GOMTV on the shitty format of the tournament. Even this will be more acceptable than freaking accept to play in the tournament and make a fool out of everyone else.
You were GLAD to go on to the next match, but I was MAD that I paid $10 to see this nonsense.
Your "opinion" is also as biased as hell, and ignorant to an unbelievable extend.
Naniwa's action can be rationalized but never be justified in any way.
There are tons of means to punish a tournament organizer if you don't like their format.
You can boycott their tournament. You can make a public statement before and after the tournament.
Accepting an invitation, and making a move like this in the middle of tournament is definitely the WRONG way to approach the matter. Its utterly unprofessional, immature, and selfish move.
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On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. What NaNiwa did was basically akin to a last-place MLB team, during its final game of the season, intentionally striking out in every at bat. Just imagine what would happen in that situation: fans would ask for their money back; advertising contracts would be violated; and the league would certainly take action against the team and its players - just like GOM did with NaNi - in order to protect its product.
This is really all that needs to be said IMO. If people want e-sports to blow up and to be taken seriously by the general public, you must hold yourself to the same standard of real sports.
Something like this in another sport would cause a scandal, as alex wrote. GOM is a business first and foremost and having their product undermined by something like this is simply unacceptable. A simple demotion is less than what Nani deserved.
To the people talking about forfeits in other tournaments - I agree with you that they should be dealt with much more harshly. GOM was willing to take a stand and they have clearly distinguished themselves as the most professional tournament organizer. It's up to the other tournaments to do the same. GOM is acting as the governing body of a real professional sport would, while other tournaments (mostly the NA ones) seem to be built to cater to the players every whim.
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What all the rabid Nani fanboys fail to realize is that if E-sports is to grow and eventually become mainstream, such behavior is simply intolerable. One word. Professionalism.
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Thank you for your insight on the matter. The article was interesting and well written however I still almost whole-heartedly disagree with your stance.
The game meant nothing. Taking everything you said into consideration I still don't think he should have been punished. I agree that perhaps something should have been said, but only on the same level as to what you did concerning game 2 of IdrA vs Nerchio. But that, as you said multiple times, is a different subject altogether so I will not go there (though it's hard not to, heh).
I know that even if there is nothing on the line fans want to see their favourite players duking it out against other titans. That they paid to be entertained. However I don't believe that a player should fake a game just for the sake of the entertainment. The whole 'do your part' argument was almost convincing, but still comes short. I've always fought against doing pointless things in life, and that is one of them. Let Naniwa sleep or get a hamburger if he wants, damnit.
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EPT
