• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 23:14
CET 05:14
KST 13:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !8Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
When will we find out if there are more tournament ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump
Tourneys
Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1: Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle screp: Command line app to parse SC rep files [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Mechabellum Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1409 users

A Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 32

Blogs > EGalex
Post a Reply
Prev 1 30 31 32 33 34 35 Next All
Bogeyman
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-17 16:41:43
December 17 2011 16:35 GMT
#621
@Sejanus:
I'm sure you don't expect professionals to be super-humans, and I don't expect them to be little kids with no experience. Try to understand that he was left out in the fucking cold whereas pretty much every professional athlete has someone there for him/her to support when these things happen. Recognize that fact at least.
applejuice
Profile Joined October 2010
307 Posts
December 17 2011 16:43 GMT
#622
He's a professional, and at the end of the day, the fans pay his bills. He should man up, apologize to his fans and GOMTV (if he hasn't done so already), and get back out there.
asic
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark18 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-17 17:26:29
December 17 2011 17:14 GMT
#623
he could've just done a two-base all-in, or four-gated, or executed one of many other strategies that would've almost certainly ended the game in ten minutes or less


Yes lets all watch a soulless match where Naniwa all-in's after 7min.. T.T

OP has a very corporate mindset and only wish the show to be played regardless of how pointless it may be. Let Naniwa proberush all he wants, if he qualify for something he should be allowed to do anything that the ingame gameplay allows him to, as long as it does not involve cheating.

So what's my point?

Naniwa has done nothing wrong, he played the game and lost. He didnt satisfy those fans that wanted to see a pointless match, big fucking deal. Only his team should punish him if they felt he went against the team policy about exposure and such.
What would Musashi do?
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2802 Posts
December 17 2011 17:33 GMT
#624
Every sport has its humble origins as an organized struggle between two opposing parties (including potential rivalries and loads of mockery involved) and ends as an entertainment system for those with money?

There should be a disclaimer at the bottom of the paying subscriber agreement stating that the actions of their players don't reflect the standpoint of GOM simply because it's a competition, not a theater; everything is and will be possible, including shitty games.
vilehelm
Profile Joined July 2011
10 Posts
December 17 2011 18:29 GMT
#625
Yes lets all watch a soulless match where Naniwa all-in's after 7min.. T.T

OP has a very corporate mindset and only wish the show to be played regardless of how pointless it may be. Let Naniwa proberush all he wants, if he qualify for something he should be allowed to do anything that the ingame gameplay allows him to, as long as it does not involve cheating.

So what's my point?

Naniwa has done nothing wrong, he played the game and lost. He didnt satisfy those fans that wanted to see a pointless match, big fucking deal. Only his team should punish him if they felt he went against the team policy about exposure and such.


I disagree on that last point. Imagine any sponsor CMO logging in to see this. "This is what I'm paying for?" sponsorship money dries up and so long GOM. In fact, I can imagine a scenario where right after that match Mr. Chae gets a call from Pepsi / Coke / whoever and gets an ear full. GOM isn't in a position yet where sponsors are bidding heavily for the right to have their name on the marquee.

It seems a little over the top but I have to agree with their actions, and good post by Alex.
Velocirapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States983 Posts
December 17 2011 20:23 GMT
#626
We all like to live in the idealized world where its the game that matters and skill has value in itself that everybody will respect. The simple fact of the matter is that the business side is what really matters. Product creation, sale numbers and cash in the bank. Pro gamers are entertainers. The value they contribute is a built in customer base for their derivative products much like how big name actors contribute to blockbuster movies.

Basically the real controversy this Naniwa situation brings to light is how much the business people who actually control the scene should humor the naive masses. They are the customers so the answer is a lot, but where exactly is the line drawn.
StarcraftKevin
Profile Joined August 2009
United States285 Posts
December 17 2011 20:39 GMT
#627
nice comparison
LiquidHerO || SlyaerSMMA || SlayerSTaeja || NsHsJJakji || NsHsSeal || NsHsSage || MVPDongraegu
elanoism
Profile Joined April 2011
Bulgaria5 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-17 20:52:03
December 17 2011 20:50 GMT
#628
I disagree on that last point. Imagine any sponsor CMO logging in to see this. "This is what I'm paying for?" sponsorship money dries up and so long GOM. In fact, I can imagine a scenario where right after that match Mr. Chae gets a call from Pepsi / Coke / whoever and gets an ear full. GOM isn't in a position yet where sponsors are bidding heavily for the right to have their name on the marquee.


This is really funny! I understand some big time C(O/E)O talking about sponsors and stuff, but this is just ridiculous.

Do you really think anyone from Pepsi give a thing about what is actually happening during the games. If we have the best ever GSL final, do you think they would know about it? Yes, may be they would know that the game was watched 7.32% more than the average final and they would be happy about it, but it will be always 7.32% for them, not a flock of mutalisks, giant deathball, perfect macro or а ... probe rush. The matter of fact is that it was never talked more about Naniwa himself, his team, or sponsors. Ever.

The whole purpose of any sports game is to determine who is the best. "playing to win" is the whole point of sports. The reason they exist. There isn't a sport in the world, that is not played for a win. The ability to objectively calculate a score and declare a winner is the definition for a "sport".

Nobody in his right mind can remove any player's right to play for a win (in this context the "win" is the first place in the tournament). Especially and the least - tournament organisers. I understand showmatches and games designed for fun, but they are not an esport and have no place between actual tournament.

The only possible fix to this thing ever happening again, is for GOM and all tournament organisers to make better tournaments that do not form around meaningless matches. No player would ever play such a game on 100 percent. No fan (or i guess most of them) wants to watch a game of 10% naniwa, and 40% nestea, This is what will actually hurt viewers numbers, which in turn will hurt sponsors, teams, etc ...
Crisco
Profile Joined March 2011
1170 Posts
December 17 2011 21:48 GMT
#629
beautiful post, thank you for your insight
Joseki
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States200 Posts
December 17 2011 23:25 GMT
#630
Yeah, Nani can play however he wants to. Probe rush in a high level game to me is much more entertaining anyway. I was laughing my ass off.
Battle.net 2.0 - The only place you can be alone with 20,000 other people.
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2802 Posts
December 18 2011 01:38 GMT
#631
I just had an idea: Why don't players rehearse their matches? That would draw in so many more viewers! Just like the WWE!
Mietiex
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands31 Posts
December 18 2011 02:56 GMT
#632
On December 18 2011 05:50 elanoism wrote:
Show nested quote +
I disagree on that last point. Imagine any sponsor CMO logging in to see this. "This is what I'm paying for?" sponsorship money dries up and so long GOM. In fact, I can imagine a scenario where right after that match Mr. Chae gets a call from Pepsi / Coke / whoever and gets an ear full. GOM isn't in a position yet where sponsors are bidding heavily for the right to have their name on the marquee.


This is really funny! I understand some big time C(O/E)O talking about sponsors and stuff, but this is just ridiculous.

Do you really think anyone from Pepsi give a thing about what is actually happening during the games. If we have the best ever GSL final, do you think they would know about it? Yes, may be they would know that the game was watched 7.32% more than the average final and they would be happy about it, but it will be always 7.32% for them, not a flock of mutalisks, giant deathball, perfect macro or а ... probe rush. The matter of fact is that it was never talked more about Naniwa himself, his team, or sponsors. Ever.

The whole purpose of any sports game is to determine who is the best. "playing to win" is the whole point of sports. The reason they exist. There isn't a sport in the world, that is not played for a win. The ability to objectively calculate a score and declare a winner is the definition for a "sport".

Nobody in his right mind can remove any player's right to play for a win (in this context the "win" is the first place in the tournament). Especially and the least - tournament organisers. I understand showmatches and games designed for fun, but they are not an esport and have no place between actual tournament.

The only possible fix to this thing ever happening again, is for GOM and all tournament organisers to make better tournaments that do not form around meaningless matches. No player would ever play such a game on 100 percent. No fan (or i guess most of them) wants to watch a game of 10% naniwa, and 40% nestea, This is what will actually hurt viewers numbers, which in turn will hurt sponsors, teams, etc ...


So True. What I think EGalex is misunderstanding is that we, the fans, want to watch every match. When I'm watching GSL I want to watch the games that matter. After seeing a lot of games, I'd much rather see Naniwa throw a meaningless game, than two players dukin' it out for Jack Shit. I guess it's different for some people, but EGalex should stop assuming what people think. He should stick to managing players and leave his opinion with his wife. I think it's very unprofessional, but never had EG in high regards anyway.

TL FTW!
Don't sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff.
MrF
Profile Joined October 2011
United States320 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 03:11:44
December 18 2011 03:00 GMT
#633
"The whole purpose of any sports game is to determine who is the best. "playing to win" is the whole point of sports. The reason they exist. There isn't a sport in the world, that is not played for a win. The ability to objectively calculate a score and declare a winner is the definition for a "sport"."
That is not the definition of "sport" and the whole propose of a sports game is not to determine who is the best, id say that the main propose of a sports game is fun or entertainment, would you like to watch a contest to see who is the best at say speed reading im sure you could find a way to objectively calculate a score and determine who is the best but who cares it would be boring as fuck, the point is entertainment, that's why people are watching, determining who is the best adds to the the entertainment value but its not the be all end all definition, and if you think a probe rush is entertaining because its a huge joke that's cool for you but most people who put time and money into making something entertaining for the fans are not looking for it to be made into a joke. I don't know if the punishment was just or not and that wasn't the point of the OP but i don't think a probe rush in a game with thousands of viewers between two high profile players was a good plan. That being said i totally understand why he did it and i might have done the same thing myself as i am a very sore looser as well, but i am trying to be objective here.
edit; while you are mostly correct in saying the definition of a sport is to determine a winner id say an equally important part is to have a good and entertaining match regardless of winner.
HunterXHunter is awesome
ShootingStars
Profile Joined August 2010
1475 Posts
December 18 2011 05:41 GMT
#634
Naniwa doing a probe rush is the exact same thing as a 4-0 GSL final. It's disappointing, BUT POSSIBLE. >_>
TheRealPaciFist
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1049 Posts
December 18 2011 06:24 GMT
#635
Thank you for the blog post, and making me think of this situation in a slightly different way.

I guess the best thing to do in this situation, if you really are mentally drained and emotionally sorrowed, is to four gate and then complain to GOM about the format later.

Right now I just hope that people (pro players and spectators alike) have been educated, and we can move on and stop discussing (lambasting?) Naniwa so much.
Second favorite strategy game of all time: Starcraft. First: Go (aka Wei Qi, Paduk, or Igo)
th2pun1sh3r
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States107 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 07:18:28
December 18 2011 07:15 GMT
#636
On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
Please note the following before reading this commentary:

......
NaNi, you're an incredible player, with thousands upon thousands of fans who just want to see you play. Next time, play.

Alex Garfield
CEO, Evil Geniuses
@ottersareneat on Twitter

*For those of you eager to pull out the pitchforks, the IPL3/White-Ra situation is quite different; at the time of IdrA's match against White-Ra, IPL3 was already behind schedule, and didn't even have time to broadcast all of its remaining group play matches.



I disagree with this guy. Some people just don't understand what its like to be in someone else's shoes... its easy to say "player X is killing Esports" when you are sitting in the comfort of your home eating popcorn and you feel entitled to watch a game on your seasonal gom pass. It's a completely different feeling when you're Naniwa... sitting in the booth- you just lost 0-3 after practicing really hard.. your mental state is completely destroyed.. you are upset.. pissed off...sad.. and you ask to forfeit a meaningless match because you just can't deal with the situation right now. Next thing you know they tell you that you can't forfeit and you must play.. fuck it - I would've probe rushed too.

Sometimes people forget that the players are human- they are capable of making mistakes, getting angry/upset, and even playing poorly.I find some of the expectations absurd.. people are not robots and they don't have to deliver flawless games
everytime.

as tasteless once said " some people just don't know what its like to be human"
"Rank-1 Master Random Sc2 Player"
vilehelm
Profile Joined July 2011
10 Posts
December 18 2011 07:49 GMT
#637
Do you really think anyone from Pepsi give a thing about what is actually happening during the games. If we have the best ever GSL final, do you think they would know about it? Yes, may be they would know that the game was watched 7.32% more than the average final and they would be happy about it, but it will be always 7.32% for them, not a flock of mutalisks, giant deathball, perfect macro or а ... probe rush. The matter of fact is that it was never talked more about Naniwa himself, his team, or sponsors. Ever.


My example is a little severe, but yeah, marketing people (CMO = Chief Marketing Officer, not CEO) are very reactive with sponsorships. They do listen to the most ridiculous remarks and inane chatter out there. I work in advertising for a major NBA (USA pro basketball league) sponsor and if something happens it generally does make it to them because that's their job, to pay attention to everything that touches their brand.

It's ESPECIALLY sensitive because they DON'T understand the game and all they really pay attention is chatter. They don't care about the game, they care about the griping and seeming lack of integrity.

Sorry, didn't mean to set you off, just had an insight based on my own experience with sponsorships (albeit with way more dollars on the line).

wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 08:18:08
December 18 2011 08:15 GMT
#638
I understand your point of view, I don't necessarily agree. I remember the ipl that stephano won, I think that was ipl 3? I was looking forward to a lot of Idra games (because i'm a total idra nerd fan) in the group/placement stages, but then Idra played only 1 or 2 of those games, and forfeited the rest because they were inconsequential. I was quite disappointed... I don't see how this is much different? Though I completely understands idra's position, he had just flown to IPL right after IEM guanzhao, and was suffering terrible jetlag and fatigue.
liftlift > tsm
Chicane_
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada8 Posts
December 18 2011 10:15 GMT
#639
ok, Idra six pools in the NASL season 1 tie break on xel naga caverns to determine seeding and naniwa probe rushes in a game with equal meaning to the players involved. where exactly is the line drawn between the two? Is it because he didn't micro his probes? what exactly is it about his behaviour that differentiates his play from a 6 pool, or any other "all -in cheese" for that matter?

Although I don't like the fact that I paid to see awesome games and instead saw a probe rush, how can anyone really quantify the difference?

:)
GosuNinja
Profile Joined July 2011
United States127 Posts
December 18 2011 12:17 GMT
#640
What a fantastic point. I didn't see it like that at all untill you pointed it out. After reading your post i agree 100% with you.
Prev 1 30 31 32 33 34 35 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
21:00
Best Games of Starcraft
SHIN vs ByuN
Reynor vs Classic
TBD vs herO
Maru vs SHIN
TBD vs Classic
PiGStarcraft667
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft667
PiLiPiLi 44
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 499
Leta 283
ZergMaN 212
NaDa 66
Hm[arnc] 21
Mong 19
Icarus 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever305
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
summit1g7691
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox176
Other Games
Coldzera 1080
JimRising 499
WinterStarcraft258
ViBE143
C9.Mang0109
Trikslyr61
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1161
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki16
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22271
League of Legends
• Doublelift4619
Other Games
• Scarra1684
• Shiphtur99
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
5h 46m
WardiTV 2025
6h 46m
Spirit vs Cure
Reynor vs MaxPax
SHIN vs TBD
Solar vs herO
Classic vs TBD
SC Evo League
8h 16m
Ladder Legends
14h 46m
BSL 21
15h 46m
Sziky vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs Cross
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 5h
Ladder Legends
1d 12h
BSL 21
1d 15h
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.