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OP has highlighted a ridiculous problem in many different sports by talking about completely unnecessary games and highlighting how teams DO NOT put everything they have into them because the games are meaningless, yet instead of thinking that Starcraft 2 could simply solve this problem by NOT doing what every other sport has done (and oftentimes GOM does, indeed, eliminate inconsequential games), he says that SC2 players should deal with it the way other athletes have. I understand that this is because of the OP's perspective as being a manager and businessman, instead of an athlete, but we in the competitive gaming community are cerebral types who are offended at being told that something is valuable when we can see that the format itself prevents reward. This elimination of unnecessary games is an EASY FIX, not some ancient thing that "has existed since the beginning of time in sports and thus must be recognized as legitimate." OP himself discusses all the gray areas of these types of games, especially the type C which is what we have here. If the game doesn't matter (ie the format gives no reward for winning or losing, be it money or the capacity to progress further in the tournament), I DON'T WANT the players to bust out their best strategies and secret weapons. Tbh, I'd rather that the game not even be played (which was clearly Nani's intention by requesting to forfeit before he was denied that option).
Furthermore, the OP suggested several times that he disagreed with the severity of Nani's punishment, but for some reason didn't get into that. IT'S IMPORTANT. Right now you sound like you're just kissing up to GOM. You jump in to defend GOM by ultimately stating that they (and this is basically what you said) make the same format mistakes as major league baseball and other athletic organizations, you criticize Naniwa's actions, and don't actually go into the one opinion you have that might be critical of GOM. Play it safe by attacking the party that can't respond to you in a way that might harm your business...
Naniwa, you've had a tough run in Korea so far. I wasn't always a big fan of yours, but your games in Korea have made me a bigger fan. I'm watching the quality of the games you've been playing, and recognize that those games come from a competitive spirit which can only exist when the format promotes passionate competition. Keep your chin up, your day will come. Your games have been awesome. Even though you've had a lot of losses, the games themselves have demonstrated that you do belong in the same arena as those top players.
Edit: wanted to add that I agree with Methy: "I think it's TERRIBLE to set a precedent where putting on a sham performance in a match is *more* acceptable than forfeiting a match, and I've felt this way for a very long time."
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Alex,
I couldn't agree more. I still think that the one of the biggest problems of eSport that needs to be solved is how the players behave. The phase that goes from esport hobby (online mostly) to professional eSport is really hard to overcome and it's mostly because of the players, top tier players. Maybe the job that Fans, supporters and Administrators need to do is to motivate a proper behaviour into the players.
Nice words and since I pay for a lot of SC2 eSport content I feel raped when this situations happens.
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Thank you very much for this extremely well written, insightful piece. I think your comments are spot on. I know this wasn't your intent, but besides better articulating my feelings on the matter, you have improved my view of EG and Idra-related incidents. You've made it easier for me to cheer for IdrA again, which is good timing given his re-entrance to the GSL. So thanks!
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the face of koreans commentators after the game says every thing.
nice write alex... you bringing the mlb nba nfl examples were just awesome
if you like volley u should remember like 2 years ago when Brasil deliberate lost a game to Argentina to dont face Russia on brackets, as so did Italy and Poland on same tourney. You guys probably remember that event made the International Volley Confederation put a rule that u cant lose on propose, in all their tourneys.
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I agree, but really... While the way Naniwa acted here is 100 % unacceptable, the way GomTV, and korea in general handled this situation(based on reactions, former MvP coach said some nasty things for example about naniwa)
I think that their response was far more unprofessional..
Also, in the law, there is a principle, that say one should always take the least interfering action.
besides, the seeding that Naniwa got from MLG Providence clearly stated he would get a code S spot, but then after they come and justify the actions towards Naniwa by stating they never did, but only gave him a spot in the blizzard cup.
This is a clear lie, based on the GSL/MLG exchange program.. this means they did in fact take his code s spot, and not just took him out of consideration, and simply removing him like that, is directly against the law.
The least intefering action, would mean to debate the problem, talk about it first.
Conclusion:
I think what Naniwa did was bad, but the reaction from Gomtv and other koreans was far more unprofessional.
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It's a reasonable perspective; I think most people would agree he should have played the game. I definitely disagree that GOM shouldn't take any blame for the format. A poor format hurts the tournament from a spectator point of view too. Even if Naniwa had played the game, it would have been hard to really put any weight behind it when you know he isn't trying. So we missed out on Naniwa half assing a game in some other way. I guess that would have been cool for all the ignorant people who don't see what's really going on, but I'm not sure the rest of us really care.
Never mind the slippery slope that this has started. Up until now, we've mostly turned the other way when someone does some sort of weird play that's obviously going to lose the game. Those games usually matter too. But when a controversial player takes it to the extreme at a high profile tournament in a game that's essentially a glorified showmatch, suddenly everyone sees the light. The point here is that this is going to lead to a lot more controversy down the line. What happens when some zerg 6 pools a terran now? Is he manipulating the tournament? Should 6p vs terran be illegal? Should it not be illegal but we'll just arbitrarily handle those situations as they arise? That would probably be the worst solution.
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On December 16 2011 20:51 10or10 wrote:
I disagree with both EGalex and EGincontrolls (stated on SotG and ITG) opnions, agree with EGidras (stated on ITG) opinion.
What's meaningful for me is the competition and the skill shown in those circumstances, not the "show" or "fun" games. It's a huge difference for me to see a football (soccer) player perform a dribble in Champions League final, compared to doing it on a warm-up or a national friendly.
agree 100%, either way I don't really know what all the fuss is about. MC was bitching Naniwa out and then the next day he does some stupid carrier/mothership/collossus build that got slaughtered and wasn't very entertaining.
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On December 17 2011 03:02 Vidar wrote:
OP has highlighted a ridiculous problem in many different sports by talking about completely unnecessary games and highlighting how teams DO NOT put everything they have into them because the games are meaningless, yet instead of thinking that Starcraft 2 could simply solve this problem by NOT doing what every other sport has done (and oftentimes GOM does, indeed, eliminate inconsequential games), he says that SC2 players should deal with it the way other athletes have. I understand that this is because of the OP's perspective as being a manager and businessman, instead of an athlete, but we in the competitive gaming community are cerebral types who are offended at being told that something is valuable when we can see that the format itself prevents reward. This elimination of unnecessary games is an EASY FIX, not some ancient thing that "has existed since the beginning of time in sports and thus must be recognized as legitimate." OP himself discusses all the gray areas of these types of games, especially the type C which is what we have here. If the game doesn't matter (ie the format gives no reward for winning or losing, be it money or the capacity to progress further in the tournament), I DON'T WANT the players to bust out their best strategies and secret weapons. Tbh, I'd rather that the game not even be played (which was clearly Nani's intention by requesting to forfeit before he was denied that option).
Furthermore, the OP suggested several times that he disagreed with the severity of Nani's punishment, but for some reason didn't get into that. IT'S IMPORTANT. Right now you sound like you're just kissing up to GOM. You jump in to defend GOM by ultimately stating that they (and this is basically what you said) make the same format mistakes as major league baseball and other athletic organizations, you criticize Naniwa's actions, and don't actually go into the one opinion you have that might be critical of GOM. Play it safe by attacking the party that can't respond to you in a way that might harm your business...
Naniwa, you've had a tough run in Korea so far. I wasn't always a big fan of yours, but your games in Korea have made me a bigger fan. I'm watching the quality of the games you've been playing, and recognize that those games come from a competitive spirit which can only exist when the format promotes passionate competition. Keep your chin up, your day will come. Your games have been awesome. Even though you've had a lot of losses, the games themselves have demonstrated that you do belong in the same arena as those top players.
Edit: wanted to add that I agree with Methy: "I think it's TERRIBLE to set a precedent where putting on a sham performance in a match is *more* acceptable than forfeiting a match, and I've felt this way for a very long time."
That's a well thought-out post. I would like to correct one thing however, Naniwa has said this on LO3, he did not ask for a forfeit. (However, if he had asked I think the answer would have been no; not sure though)
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On December 17 2011 05:35 Hershey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 03:02 Vidar wrote:
OP has highlighted a ridiculous problem in many different sports by talking about completely unnecessary games and highlighting how teams DO NOT put everything they have into them because the games are meaningless, yet instead of thinking that Starcraft 2 could simply solve this problem by NOT doing what every other sport has done (and oftentimes GOM does, indeed, eliminate inconsequential games), he says that SC2 players should deal with it the way other athletes have. I understand that this is because of the OP's perspective as being a manager and businessman, instead of an athlete, but we in the competitive gaming community are cerebral types who are offended at being told that something is valuable when we can see that the format itself prevents reward. This elimination of unnecessary games is an EASY FIX, not some ancient thing that "has existed since the beginning of time in sports and thus must be recognized as legitimate." OP himself discusses all the gray areas of these types of games, especially the type C which is what we have here. If the game doesn't matter (ie the format gives no reward for winning or losing, be it money or the capacity to progress further in the tournament), I DON'T WANT the players to bust out their best strategies and secret weapons. Tbh, I'd rather that the game not even be played (which was clearly Nani's intention by requesting to forfeit before he was denied that option).
Furthermore, the OP suggested several times that he disagreed with the severity of Nani's punishment, but for some reason didn't get into that. IT'S IMPORTANT. Right now you sound like you're just kissing up to GOM. You jump in to defend GOM by ultimately stating that they (and this is basically what you said) make the same format mistakes as major league baseball and other athletic organizations, you criticize Naniwa's actions, and don't actually go into the one opinion you have that might be critical of GOM. Play it safe by attacking the party that can't respond to you in a way that might harm your business...
Naniwa, you've had a tough run in Korea so far. I wasn't always a big fan of yours, but your games in Korea have made me a bigger fan. I'm watching the quality of the games you've been playing, and recognize that those games come from a competitive spirit which can only exist when the format promotes passionate competition. Keep your chin up, your day will come. Your games have been awesome. Even though you've had a lot of losses, the games themselves have demonstrated that you do belong in the same arena as those top players.
Edit: wanted to add that I agree with Methy: "I think it's TERRIBLE to set a precedent where putting on a sham performance in a match is *more* acceptable than forfeiting a match, and I've felt this way for a very long time." That's a well thought-out post. I would like to correct one thing however, Naniwa has said this on LO3, he did not ask for a forfeit. (However, if he had asked I think the answer would have been no; not sure though)
Naniwa did actually ask for forfeit the match, but it was rejected
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Thanks for this perspective. I was up and watching the tournament when it happened, and the incident was quite a surprise. One of the things I wish pro-gamers would really appreciate is the degree to which they're supported by fans. Among the thousands watching, there are some really passionate folks playing vicariously through the pros "This is our chance to beat Nestea!!" I think Catz embraces this level of support with his frequent cheers of, "We win" when he's streaming. When you look at the flip side of that, who wants to say, "We threw the game?"
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No matter how well written and well developed the OPs post is, I can stand behind it, for multiples reasons.
First and foremost, I think that the discussion of whether or not Naniwa's action was warranted or not is a moot point. Most, if not everyone, seems to agree on the fact that Naniwa shouldn't have done that, and he gave out public excuse, which to me, closes the matter. I believe that mistakes are made by everyone, professional or not, and as long as a proper recognition of the wrong and excuses are given out to the appropriate person, I don't see the need to further discuss the matter.
I also believe that this post, while highly informative, derails what should be the real discussion. As mentionned, to me debate on Naniwa's action really should come to a close and I don't see further need to discuss it. The only thing that additionnal discussion of this matter does is stir away the discussion from GOM's action, and to a lot of people, serve as an excuse for GOM themselves . Now I know your post willfully avoided talking about GOM, but through it, arguments can still be found that would somewhat justify GOM's approach, and what I find annoying is not so much your stance on it, but rather that your post can be used by people as an argument in GOM's favor as a whole.
eg : ''Well look, EGALEX said that Naniwa was in the wrong and people agreed with him, so obviously the logical conclusion is that what GOM did is okay right?''
In any case, to conclude that point, I basically don't see the true reason to further discuss something that to me should be closed, other then serve as ammunition in another debate which you seemed to want to avoid.
Now as far as the post itself, theres also a couple of points on which I would like to disagree
I would ask you to consider holding players to higher standards of professionalism; and to also consider the fact that it's not GOM's responsibility to cater their format solely to suit players. GOM's job (as is the case with any professional sports league) is to provide a quality product to its viewers, while providing its competitors with fair, reasonable playing conditions, and the Blizzard Cup's format balanced these factors acceptably
To me, this seems completely wrong. GOM is a business, they are the ones that want my money, they should be the ones acting to a very high standard of professionalism if they do want my money. IT IS their responsability to cater their format to suit players, as the players are the show, the only reason their business is making money is by displaying these players to the audience, as such it should be all about the players. They can make me as happy as they want, if there is no player playing it wont matter to me I will not give them any money. The quality product is the players, and to have players doing things right you need to have an event set up right. But of course, they also need fair and reasonable playing conditions, but these conditions need to be player driven, which is exactly the opposite of what happened. (Forcing a player to play a pointless game of a tournament once he was on tilt and exhausted, and then punishing him unfairly for this.) To me, this is unacceptable when your business is making money only due to these players.
By your logic, All-Star games shouldn't even exist.
I can't believe this comparison was even made. Your whole argumentation was good but things like this just undermine the whole credibility of the argument. (Theres a big difference between ''the outcome of the game being meaningles'' and a game being totally ''meaningless'' to a player. The all-star games are not meaningless for the players who play in them.)
Now, with that in mind, I dont think either that what Nani did was right, but would people really have prefered a game where Naniwa would have done a fail 4-gate without any willingness to win? I dont think so.
It wouldn't have stirred all that drama, but in the end the result is exactly the same, it wouldnt have been interesting for the viewers either, and that is all GOMs fault for putting up a stage where such result can exist.
Anyways, even if I don't totally agree with your point, thank you very much for your input, opinion of people inside the business is always welcomed.
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Hmm this is a pretty well thought out post... I guess I agree with most of it, but still think that Naniwa is not completely to blame, but that GOM does share some of the burden for their format
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And yeah, people are comparing e-sports to other big sports like hockey. But there's a big difference: in e-sports, the people who compete are gamers. They're not athletes. They're just ordinary joes, gamers, and that's why we love them. Like Idra, for instance. He's a great personality to have in the scene regardless of how you feel about him. Personally I think he sucks, but he's funny (the video on youtube with Artosis dodging his awkward high five is hilarious) when he rages and gg's early, so I'm glad he's with us. The kind of behavior he's put out in the past would've earned him ridicule at best in say soccer. Albeit, there are athletes who behave badly as well. But it's hard to compare, really, and that's why I think you shouldn't.
Point is, don't try to make that comparison. E-sports is for nerds by nerds and the competitors are nerds. As far as I'm concerned. I understand they want to expand, and that's fine, being a nerd is socially acceptable these days. Just look at all the Barcrafts. Bringing all the nerds out of the woodwork.
But yeah, Korea and all. Serious business. And I respect that. Don't doubt for a second though that if it was dreamhack or MLG, it wouldn't have been half the uproar.
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On December 17 2011 05:47 Cinim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 05:35 Hershey wrote:On December 17 2011 03:02 Vidar wrote:
OP has highlighted a ridiculous problem in many different sports by talking about completely unnecessary games and highlighting how teams DO NOT put everything they have into them because the games are meaningless, yet instead of thinking that Starcraft 2 could simply solve this problem by NOT doing what every other sport has done (and oftentimes GOM does, indeed, eliminate inconsequential games), he says that SC2 players should deal with it the way other athletes have. I understand that this is because of the OP's perspective as being a manager and businessman, instead of an athlete, but we in the competitive gaming community are cerebral types who are offended at being told that something is valuable when we can see that the format itself prevents reward. This elimination of unnecessary games is an EASY FIX, not some ancient thing that "has existed since the beginning of time in sports and thus must be recognized as legitimate." OP himself discusses all the gray areas of these types of games, especially the type C which is what we have here. If the game doesn't matter (ie the format gives no reward for winning or losing, be it money or the capacity to progress further in the tournament), I DON'T WANT the players to bust out their best strategies and secret weapons. Tbh, I'd rather that the game not even be played (which was clearly Nani's intention by requesting to forfeit before he was denied that option).
Furthermore, the OP suggested several times that he disagreed with the severity of Nani's punishment, but for some reason didn't get into that. IT'S IMPORTANT. Right now you sound like you're just kissing up to GOM. You jump in to defend GOM by ultimately stating that they (and this is basically what you said) make the same format mistakes as major league baseball and other athletic organizations, you criticize Naniwa's actions, and don't actually go into the one opinion you have that might be critical of GOM. Play it safe by attacking the party that can't respond to you in a way that might harm your business...
Naniwa, you've had a tough run in Korea so far. I wasn't always a big fan of yours, but your games in Korea have made me a bigger fan. I'm watching the quality of the games you've been playing, and recognize that those games come from a competitive spirit which can only exist when the format promotes passionate competition. Keep your chin up, your day will come. Your games have been awesome. Even though you've had a lot of losses, the games themselves have demonstrated that you do belong in the same arena as those top players.
Edit: wanted to add that I agree with Methy: "I think it's TERRIBLE to set a precedent where putting on a sham performance in a match is *more* acceptable than forfeiting a match, and I've felt this way for a very long time." That's a well thought-out post. I would like to correct one thing however, Naniwa has said this on LO3, he did not ask for a forfeit. (However, if he had asked I think the answer would have been no; not sure though) Naniwa did actually ask for forfeit the match, but it was rejected
incorrect, when he was asked directly on live on 3 if he had asked to forfeit, he answered that he had not asked.
edit: which the poster above you already mentioned. If you still think he has asked to forfeit but was denied maybe you should cite a source, since he has stated explicitly in an interview that he did not ask.
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On December 16 2011 22:46 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 17:28 Angelbelow wrote:On December 16 2011 17:11 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 17:10 Angelbelow wrote:On December 16 2011 16:36 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 16:23 Angelbelow wrote:
For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.
In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this. No organization exists to fine such outlandish comments. Go ahead. Doesn't mean it's the professional thing to do. If you want others to treat you as professionals then conduct yourselves as such. Keep it behind closed doors. Deal with your own players and don't release everything to the damn Media. So I guess anyone involved with sc2 that has an opinion (especially involving constructive criticism) about someone else in the sc2 community should keep it to themselves or risk being called unprofessional by you? You don't have to change your opinion, just know that they are a high volume of people that actually appreciate that Alex, Nazgul, Tyler, FXOBoSs, Doa (just to name a FEW) shared their opinions with the fans. Upper management keeps things behind closed doors for a reason. They know how to conduct themselves with public relations. Every professional organization I know does this. Fair thing to say but that really depends on WHAT they're discussing. If its player A is getting cut from the team because hes has ABC problems, then you obviously keep it to yourself. If they're giving their opinion based on something that happened in front of a national audience is perfectly fine. I just explained why this isn't the case. If you've actually read what I said. Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 16:14 Angelbelow wrote:On December 16 2011 15:51 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 15:20 Kahuna. wrote:On December 16 2011 15:09 StarStruck wrote:You are missing the point. GM's and coaches do not question other player's work ethic. It isn't their job to. Thus the Lebron move has no relevancy because they weren't questioning Lebron's work ethic. Pat Quinn and numerous other coaches have been fined heftily by the leagues for doing such demeanor's. It can carry a 5 to 6 digit price tag. Hell, even calling another player's hit dirty can hit you hard: http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=501664The reason why the anecdote works is because all 9 matches count towards one thing. Which two players move onto the next round. The words 'work ethic' didn't show up in Alex's blog post... He was commenting on Naniwa's decision to probe-rush. He hasn't stated that he doesn't think Naniwa practices hard. So the 82 games that each hockey team plays in a season leads to one thing: which 16 teams will make it into the playoffs. So if during a couple of the games, a few teams decide to stay home and watch Jerry Springer rather than show up to their games, should we not care since we have to take the whole picture of the ENTIRE season into consideration and seeing as most of the season was great, then who cares about those couple of games? Again, bad anecdote. You have to read between the lines of what he said. I made no mention of practice. Work ethic goes way beyond practice. You can try to spin doctor it all you want. Here's where your argument falls apart. All of the matches happened on the same day. There is no rest period. No time for preparation. It's a slug fest when it happens back-to-back. Each competitor fights one round against another opponent. There are four rounds. It's how the event is packaged. You buy your ticket to watch in the studio and it is packaged as one event. Almost sounds like a UFC fight card, no? With that said, I have a question for you: would you honestly go up to the ticket booth and ask for your money back when eight bouts were really entertaining and close, but Mark Hominick got KOed in the first nine seconds by the Korean Zombie? That's very different from what happened, but I think it resonates with the idea that shit happens to great athletes all the time. Lots of people were hyped for that fight, but it was a wash. I haven't read the rest of your posts so Ill just respond to the bold part. Hominick being KOed by Chan a good thing. Thats what many fans pay to see, a highlight reel knockout. That's part of the reason why they pay to watch the UFC (especially fans that are new to the sport) and I would argue that a rare highlight reel knock out like that lives up to the hype. I would read all posts. That's what I do anyway. I find it's very important because that way you get a good feel for what the person is trying to say. Anyway, not everyone is going to share that opinion of what happened. I know a lot of people who were pissed off especially when Mark was fighting in front of his home crowd. It's the same thing with Naniwa. Everyone has a mixed opinion. Some people laughed, other people booed and some people were indifferent others thought he was just being himself, etc. That's the great thing about public opinion. You cannot please everybody.
The only reason the home crowd would be mad is because Mark got beat in an embarrassing fashion.. but Mark didnt throw the fight. He went out cocky and got caught. The Korean Zombie is known to be a wild striker who loves to bang, Mark shouldn't have came out with his hands down like that. But make no mistake, Mark wanted to win. As an avid MMA fan, I see NO reason why anyone would be mad about that match unless they're a Mark Hominick fan boy and are upset that he lost. Ive never seen anyone complain about a highreel knockout (unless its their favorite player that got knocked out =p)
Its absolutely not the same thing with Naniwa because the only thing youre actually comparing is the length of the match. I guarantee you that match is going to be in the next "UFC Ultimate Knockouts" while Naniwa's game will never be marketed to an audience and will continue to be condemned.
btw on a side note.. what did you think about that Mir and Nog fight.. as an old pride fan it sucked watching that fight lol. Mir is a such a submission beast though.
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Wonderful post Alex! Thanks for the great read.
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I agree with you Alex but I actually think the vast majority actually thought Naniwas decision was poor for just those reasons you explain. Even though they might have not expressed it as good as you have.
I think the inflammatory issue many want to debate is the arbitrary rules and GomTV's and MLGs relation regarding seed into Code S and the severeness of the punishment. If GomTV had warned Naniwa for his actions and then said "Next season anyone who do anything similar will be removed from their Code S status" I think everyone would have been more or less happy with the situation. However, after following the BW scene for years I doubt the majority in Korea share my oppinion.
Edit: We have had the same issues with our national football association here in Sweden, where they screw up one day, make up a story and change the rules to fit their new story. This happens in politics, legislation and other places where corruption is bound to happen. This is why I care so much, not because I care about Naniwa, but because right should be right and not something else.
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On December 17 2011 08:41 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 22:46 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 17:28 Angelbelow wrote:On December 16 2011 17:11 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 17:10 Angelbelow wrote:On December 16 2011 16:36 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 16:23 Angelbelow wrote:
For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.
In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this. No organization exists to fine such outlandish comments. Go ahead. Doesn't mean it's the professional thing to do. If you want others to treat you as professionals then conduct yourselves as such. Keep it behind closed doors. Deal with your own players and don't release everything to the damn Media. So I guess anyone involved with sc2 that has an opinion (especially involving constructive criticism) about someone else in the sc2 community should keep it to themselves or risk being called unprofessional by you? You don't have to change your opinion, just know that they are a high volume of people that actually appreciate that Alex, Nazgul, Tyler, FXOBoSs, Doa (just to name a FEW) shared their opinions with the fans. Upper management keeps things behind closed doors for a reason. They know how to conduct themselves with public relations. Every professional organization I know does this. Fair thing to say but that really depends on WHAT they're discussing. If its player A is getting cut from the team because hes has ABC problems, then you obviously keep it to yourself. If they're giving their opinion based on something that happened in front of a national audience is perfectly fine. I just explained why this isn't the case. If you've actually read what I said. On December 16 2011 16:14 Angelbelow wrote:On December 16 2011 15:51 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 15:20 Kahuna. wrote:On December 16 2011 15:09 StarStruck wrote:You are missing the point. GM's and coaches do not question other player's work ethic. It isn't their job to. Thus the Lebron move has no relevancy because they weren't questioning Lebron's work ethic. Pat Quinn and numerous other coaches have been fined heftily by the leagues for doing such demeanor's. It can carry a 5 to 6 digit price tag. Hell, even calling another player's hit dirty can hit you hard: http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=501664The reason why the anecdote works is because all 9 matches count towards one thing. Which two players move onto the next round. The words 'work ethic' didn't show up in Alex's blog post... He was commenting on Naniwa's decision to probe-rush. He hasn't stated that he doesn't think Naniwa practices hard. So the 82 games that each hockey team plays in a season leads to one thing: which 16 teams will make it into the playoffs. So if during a couple of the games, a few teams decide to stay home and watch Jerry Springer rather than show up to their games, should we not care since we have to take the whole picture of the ENTIRE season into consideration and seeing as most of the season was great, then who cares about those couple of games? Again, bad anecdote. You have to read between the lines of what he said. I made no mention of practice. Work ethic goes way beyond practice. You can try to spin doctor it all you want. Here's where your argument falls apart. All of the matches happened on the same day. There is no rest period. No time for preparation. It's a slug fest when it happens back-to-back. Each competitor fights one round against another opponent. There are four rounds. It's how the event is packaged. You buy your ticket to watch in the studio and it is packaged as one event. Almost sounds like a UFC fight card, no? With that said, I have a question for you: would you honestly go up to the ticket booth and ask for your money back when eight bouts were really entertaining and close, but Mark Hominick got KOed in the first nine seconds by the Korean Zombie? That's very different from what happened, but I think it resonates with the idea that shit happens to great athletes all the time. Lots of people were hyped for that fight, but it was a wash. I haven't read the rest of your posts so Ill just respond to the bold part. Hominick being KOed by Chan a good thing. Thats what many fans pay to see, a highlight reel knockout. That's part of the reason why they pay to watch the UFC (especially fans that are new to the sport) and I would argue that a rare highlight reel knock out like that lives up to the hype. I would read all posts. That's what I do anyway. I find it's very important because that way you get a good feel for what the person is trying to say. Anyway, not everyone is going to share that opinion of what happened. I know a lot of people who were pissed off especially when Mark was fighting in front of his home crowd. It's the same thing with Naniwa. Everyone has a mixed opinion. Some people laughed, other people booed and some people were indifferent others thought he was just being himself, etc. That's the great thing about public opinion. You cannot please everybody. The only reason the home crowd would be mad is because Mark got beat in an embarrassing fashion.. but Mark didnt throw the fight. He went out cocky and got caught. The Korean Zombie is known to be a wild striker who loves to bang, Mark shouldn't have came out with his hands down like that. But make no mistake, Mark wanted to win. As an avid MMA fan, I see NO reason why anyone would be mad about that match unless they're a Mark Hominick fan boy and are upset that he lost. Ive never seen anyone complain about a highreel knockout (unless its their favorite player that got knocked out =p) Its absolutely not the same thing with Naniwa because the only thing youre actually comparing is the length of the match. I guarantee you that match is going to be in the next "UFC Ultimate Knockouts" while Naniwa's game will never be marketed to an audience and will continue to be condemned. btw on a side note.. what did you think about that Mir and Nog fight.. as an old pride fan it sucked watching that fight lol. Mir is a such a submission beast though.
How can you even compare what Naniwa did to what happened to Hominick. Naniwa gave up, Hominick just got his ass handed to him in record fashion. It was never a question of effort or tossing the match. On that note why the hell did Hominick underestimate an opponent that is nicknamed the the motherf****** korean zombie. Also that Nog fight made me sad because Mir seems like a big douchebag and Nog deserved better 
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Scenario B, in which the match is meaningless for the player himself, but has meaning for his opponent and/or a third-party (example: IdrA vs. White-Ra at the IPL3 Finals, in which IdrA forfeited because he had already qualified for bracket play - which was seeded randomly - and wanted to get some rest).
I fail to see how this is ANY different than what happened in Naniwa's game. I'm also surprised you didn't "tap on his shoulder" for that one.
In line with this, selling subscriptions and season passes is, obviously, crucially important to GOM.TV's business model. And ultimately, the quality of their product is defined by the entertainment value of their matches.
Except there is nothing entertaining about meaningless games...
We don't know whether NaNi was exhausted, or frustrated, or unmotivated, or just didn't care about winning the game (for whatever reason).
Actually we do know. There's was an interview in which he talked about how hard he tried. How would anyone not be mentally exhausted, frustrated, or unmotivated after losing 3 heartbreaking games and having to play a meaningless one?
But, frankly, we don't need to; his actions were absolutely unacceptable, regardless of their reasoning. If he wasn't feeling up to putting forth maximum effort (again, for whatever reason), he could've just done a two-base all-in, or four-gated, or executed one of many other strategies that would've almost certainly ended the game in ten minutes or less.
The end result would be the same. You don't honestly believe that a 4 gate would work against Nestea right? You're basically asking him to "dance" and I'm pretty sure (much like Harrison Ford in one of his many political movies) he wouldn't want to stoop to that level.
I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. What NaNiwa did was basically akin to a last-place MLB team, during its final game of the season, intentionally striking out in every at bat. Just imagine what would happen in that situation: fans would ask for their money back; advertising contracts would be violated; and the league would certainly take action against the team and its players - just like GOM did with NaNi - in order to protect its product.
I am a disgruntled GOM customer. Ex-customer actually. I have been a subscriber since day one of GSL sc2 but I will not buy a pass ever again after their decision to suspend him from Code S. I value entertaining games with high profile players playing games that MATTER. Where they are forced to work for their wins. Not games where they do halfed ass 4 gates, 6 pools, 2 base all ins because they don't care about winning.
Also your MLB comparison is flawed because most people don't buy a single ticket to see several exciting games in a row, and then given an exhibition match at the end that is meaningless. I would say if anything, most people would walk out of the stadium after seeing the nail biting matches that mattered.
For those of you who, after reading this, agree that NaNi's actions were unacceptable, but still blame GOM for utilizing a format which allows for inconsequential matches, I would ask you to consider holding players to higher standards of professionalism; and to also consider the fact that it's not GOM's responsibility to cater their format solely to suit players.
They are NOT catering to the viewers by forcing pros to play meaningless games. This is exactly why noone takes the Pro Bowl seriously. You can't even blitz for crying out loud. Everyone KNOWS that they're not really trying and are doing their best to not get injured so that they remain healthy for the games that actually matter!
GOM's job (as is the case with any professional sports league) is to provide a quality product to its viewers, while providing its competitors with fair, reasonable playing conditions, and the Blizzard Cup's format balanced these factors acceptably. Additionally, I would also point out the fact that, as illustrated above, every major professional sports league utilizes a format in which there are meaningless games. By your logic, All-Star games shouldn't even exist.
See above! Also, I find that comparing sc2 to professional sports is huge stretch. Especially your "meaningless games" comparison. NFL and NBA teams for example, are often comprised of new players who need time to gel and work together as a cohesive unit. There is only so much you can do in practice to attain that level. Playing regular season games however helps them. It's like a perfect form of practice - Experience.
Most starcraft players play so many ladder games and custom games against other pros that are seldom different in nature than a tournament game. I'm sure it's pretty safe to say that Naniwa is at a point right now where he doesn't really need the "booth experience." I'm sure most of us would also agree that it is also important for him to not reveal all his strategies in meaningless games when he could save them for a real game. Imagine for one moment that Naniwa had thought up a brilliant and unique strategy against Nestea. Now imagine that he executes it perfectly and wins. What does he have to show for it? Sure he can brag that he beat Nestea again, but I'm sure he would much rather save a build like that for a Code S match or another MLG event etc
Ultimately, in order for eSports to be successful, whether short-term or long-term, players, teams, and tournaments must each pull their weight appropriately. Without all parties contributing, the industry cannot produce a quality product for our fans and community. And without a quality product being produced, there's no community-to-industry revenue, and there's no self-sustaining ecosystem.
I couldn't agree more! Time for GomTv to take a look at their format and ask themselves if it works.
Against NesTea, NaNiwa didn't do his part. That's why I find his actions to be unacceptable. And that's why you should, too.
No. I happen to have a difference of opinion. I hope you're ok with that.
NaNi, you're an incredible player, with thousands upon thousands of fans who just want to see you play. Next time, play.
He will. But not because of your post, because he doesn't want tournament officials to get all emo and suspend him again.
Alex Garfield CEO, Evil Geniuses @ottersareneat on Twitter *For those of you eager to pull out the pitchforks, the IPL3/White-Ra situation is quite different; at the time of IdrA's match against White-Ra, IPL3 was already behind schedule, and didn't even have time to broadcast all of its remaining group play matches.
el oh el
That makes ALL the difference! *rolls eyes*
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@EGAlex I completely agree with you on this :D
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