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A Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 29

Blogs > EGalex
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Angelbelow
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3728 Posts
December 16 2011 08:28 GMT
#561
On December 16 2011 17:11 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 17:10 Angelbelow wrote:
On December 16 2011 16:36 StarStruck wrote:
On December 16 2011 16:23 Angelbelow wrote:
For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.

In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this.


No organization exists to fine such outlandish comments. Go ahead. Doesn't mean it's the professional thing to do. If you want others to treat you as professionals then conduct yourselves as such.

Keep it behind closed doors. Deal with your own players and don't release everything to the damn Media.


So I guess anyone involved with sc2 that has an opinion (especially involving constructive criticism) about someone else in the sc2 community should keep it to themselves or risk being called unprofessional by you?

You don't have to change your opinion, just know that they are a high volume of people that actually appreciate that Alex, Nazgul, Tyler, FXOBoSs, Doa (just to name a FEW) shared their opinions with the fans.


Upper management keeps things behind closed doors for a reason. They know how to conduct themselves with public relations. Every professional organization I know does this.


Fair thing to say but that really depends on WHAT they're discussing.

If its player A is getting cut from the team because hes has ABC problems, then you obviously keep it to yourself.

If they're giving their opinion based on something that happened in front of a national audience is perfectly fine.



You may delay, but time will not. Current Music obsession: Opeth
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 09:57:49
December 16 2011 09:57 GMT
#562

Really, it comes down to one single rule:

Avoid matches in which one or both players have no meaningful incentive to win.


How about, instead:

Certain players should broaden their definition of what counts as 'meaningful'.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Reggiegigas
Profile Joined August 2010
234 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 11:00:14
December 16 2011 10:59 GMT
#563
What's meaningful in losing, or losing with 1 win? In that position, I probably wouldn't have probe rushed, instead going for some early rush. DTs maybe. Just throw it all out. Difference is just a few minutes and a probable loss (and not very exciting match) in either case. I don't think it's a very big deal at all.

Two notes
1) This is just one game, people are blowing it out of proportion. Yes, giving a good show is important, but this is just one game. One that had no impact. I understand that some people see this "rivalry" between Nestea and Nani, oh well. Maybe some other time, when the stakes are higher and the match matters, we'll see some awesome games between them.
2) Nani's Code S spot wasn't going to do much anyway, let's be realistic here - he would've gone 0-3 immediately and then gone on his way back to the training house. Nani is a good foreigner, but not nearly good enough to compete in Code S. Nani had one good weekend when he got 2nd in Providence because of his one solid build. You need more than one solid build.
10or10
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Sweden517 Posts
December 16 2011 11:51 GMT
#564
I disagree with both EGalex and EGincontrolls (stated on SotG and ITG) opnions, agree with EGidras (stated on ITG) opinion.

What's meaningful for me is the competition and the skill shown in those circumstances, not the "show" or "fun" games. It's a huge difference for me to see a football (soccer) player perform a dribble in Champions League final, compared to doing it on a warm-up or a national friendly.
|| @10or10 || 이영호 이제동 - 화이팅 ^^ ||
Klyberess
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden345 Posts
December 16 2011 12:00 GMT
#565
So proud of nani <3

When I tune in to GSL (or Blizzard Cup), I don't want to see players "putting on a show", I want them to try their best to win, and if they won't/can't, I'd rather they save my time.
EmpireHappy <3 STHack <3 ByunPrime
-CheekyDuck-
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia398 Posts
December 16 2011 12:15 GMT
#566
On December 16 2011 21:00 Klyberess wrote:
So proud of nani <3

When I tune in to GSL (or Blizzard Cup), I don't want to see players "putting on a show", I want them to try their best to win, and if they won't/can't, I'd rather they save my time.


i support Nani here aswell, they should not have matches played if they cant win, why would he give away awesome strats? it should become a non compulsory show match if the game need be played.
More expensive than a mothership
WightyCity
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada887 Posts
December 16 2011 13:24 GMT
#567
nice read. thank you
90% watching it 8% talking about it and 2% playing it - sc2
ShotgunMike
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden241 Posts
December 16 2011 13:41 GMT
#568
This was a good blog and an interesting read. I do like most of it but feel like some of the analogies don't really translate as simple as described here.

There is a huge difference if you go to a sport event (NHLor whatnot) and pay to see that particular game and then one or both of the teams just put their shoes on the field but refuse to play, comparet do if you go to e.g. a boxing gala and one out of all the matches that day turns out to not be so good. I would say that what happened at this event with Nani was the second one of these, i.e. dissapointing that one of the matches of the day was not great but no reason to demand my money back.

I agree that throwing a game is never acceptable. Mostly from a "sportmanship perspective". Those arguing that 4gate would be to lie about the fact that the game was meaningless and not played out in full competition might be correct, but it is not really an excuse not to do it. Better to play badly than not at all, I think. This goes well with the analogy of the teams that field their "B-teams" towards the end of a season.

I would not think twize if GOM decided to pull Nanis pay for the tournament, arguing that if you don't come here to play seriously we don't feel like paying you. Pulling his invite to another tournament, however, is another thing and I feel out or proportion.

Bottom line, I agree that the behaviour was not acceptable. However, it has been blown out of proportion and I think it gets way to much focus and implications.
Hot_Bid: "B10" - ThorZain: "BINGO" - Naniwa: "Apologize! ¤%#¤#&¤% Terran IMBA"
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 13:53:51
December 16 2011 13:46 GMT
#569
On December 16 2011 17:28 Angelbelow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 17:11 StarStruck wrote:
On December 16 2011 17:10 Angelbelow wrote:
On December 16 2011 16:36 StarStruck wrote:
On December 16 2011 16:23 Angelbelow wrote:
For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.

In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this.


No organization exists to fine such outlandish comments. Go ahead. Doesn't mean it's the professional thing to do. If you want others to treat you as professionals then conduct yourselves as such.

Keep it behind closed doors. Deal with your own players and don't release everything to the damn Media.


So I guess anyone involved with sc2 that has an opinion (especially involving constructive criticism) about someone else in the sc2 community should keep it to themselves or risk being called unprofessional by you?

You don't have to change your opinion, just know that they are a high volume of people that actually appreciate that Alex, Nazgul, Tyler, FXOBoSs, Doa (just to name a FEW) shared their opinions with the fans.


Upper management keeps things behind closed doors for a reason. They know how to conduct themselves with public relations. Every professional organization I know does this.


Fair thing to say but that really depends on WHAT they're discussing.

If its player A is getting cut from the team because hes has ABC problems, then you obviously keep it to yourself.

If they're giving their opinion based on something that happened in front of a national audience is perfectly fine.





I just explained why this isn't the case. If you've actually read what I said.

On December 16 2011 16:14 Angelbelow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 15:51 StarStruck wrote:
On December 16 2011 15:20 Kahuna. wrote:
On December 16 2011 15:09 StarStruck wrote:
You are missing the point. GM's and coaches do not question other player's work ethic. It isn't their job to. Thus the Lebron move has no relevancy because they weren't questioning Lebron's work ethic. Pat Quinn and numerous other coaches have been fined heftily by the leagues for doing such demeanor's. It can carry a 5 to 6 digit price tag.

Hell, even calling another player's hit dirty can hit you hard:

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=501664

The reason why the anecdote works is because all 9 matches count towards one thing. Which two players move onto the next round.

The words 'work ethic' didn't show up in Alex's blog post... He was commenting on Naniwa's decision to probe-rush. He hasn't stated that he doesn't think Naniwa practices hard.

So the 82 games that each hockey team plays in a season leads to one thing: which 16 teams will make it into the playoffs. So if during a couple of the games, a few teams decide to stay home and watch Jerry Springer rather than show up to their games, should we not care since we have to take the whole picture of the ENTIRE season into consideration and seeing as most of the season was great, then who cares about those couple of games? Again, bad anecdote.


You have to read between the lines of what he said.

I made no mention of practice. Work ethic goes way beyond practice.

You can try to spin doctor it all you want. Here's where your argument falls apart. All of the matches happened on the same day. There is no rest period. No time for preparation. It's a slug fest when it happens back-to-back.

Each competitor fights one round against another opponent. There are four rounds. It's how the event is packaged. You buy your ticket to watch in the studio and it is packaged as one event.

Almost sounds like a UFC fight card, no?


With that said, I have a question for you: would you honestly go up to the ticket booth and ask for your money back when eight bouts were really entertaining and close, but Mark Hominick got KOed in the first nine seconds by the Korean Zombie?

That's very different from what happened, but I think it resonates with the idea that shit happens to great athletes all the time. Lots of people were hyped for that fight, but it was a wash.



I haven't read the rest of your posts so Ill just respond to the bold part. Hominick being KOed by Chan a good thing. Thats what many fans pay to see, a highlight reel knockout. That's part of the reason why they pay to watch the UFC (especially fans that are new to the sport) and I would argue that a rare highlight reel knock out like that lives up to the hype.



I would read all posts. That's what I do anyway. I find it's very important because that way you get a good feel for what the person is trying to say.

Anyway, not everyone is going to share that opinion of what happened. I know a lot of people who were pissed off especially when Mark was fighting in front of his home crowd.

It's the same thing with Naniwa. Everyone has a mixed opinion. Some people laughed, other people booed and some people were indifferent others thought he was just being himself, etc.

That's the great thing about public opinion. You cannot please everybody.
kinglemon
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany199 Posts
December 16 2011 13:57 GMT
#570
what's the difference if he would have gone for an unmotivated 4gate to end the game ?
no one really wants to see that, so what's the point ?
this is no quality product for gom either.
it's even worse cause it will bore people.

dude_2
Profile Joined October 2009
Germany22 Posts
December 16 2011 14:06 GMT
#571
On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
Please note the following before reading this commentary:
1) While it may not be possible to truly remove all bias when commenting on an opposing team or its player(s), I don't feel that my stance here has been motivated by any pro-EG sentiment. This is an objective commentary from someone with as much eSports-related business experience as anyone in the industry, and someone who's both personally and professionally invested in the long-term success of eSports.

2) IdrA did not receive NaNiwa's Code S spot. IdrA was offered his Code S spot weeks ago, in a decision that was completely unrelated to NaNiwa.

3) This commentary will focus more on NaNiWa's actions themselves than GOM's subsequent decision to punish him by removing him from Code S. The relatively small amount of attention paid to GOM's decision is intentional; I want to discuss the NaNiwa/NesTea incident itself, without being distracted by separate (albeit related) events.

--

Okay, here goes
By now, we're all aware of what happened between NaNiWa and NesTea in the GOM.TV Blizzard Cup. At the time of their match, both players were 0-3 in their group, both were eliminated from further contention, and as such, the result of the match itself had no tangible effect on the rest of the tournament. NaNi then probe rushed NesTea, and the eSports world exploded.

After reviewing many, many discussion threads on TL and Reddit, as well as other community commentaries, the public sentiment seems to be somewhere between 65/35 and 70/30 in disapproval of NaNiwa's actions. Those against his decision to probe rush usually cite reasons related to sportsmanship, honor, and respect for the game. Those sympathizing with NaNi (including, understandably, many pro players) tend to place the blame on GOM for utilizing a tournament format which allows for meaningless matches. I'm sure this summary is a bit of an oversimplification, but it seems to be the general spectrum of public opinion.

I myself find NaNi's actions completely unacceptable, but for a very different reason than I believe has been popularly expressed. I also find GOM's decision to punish NaNi to be completely reasonable (although I acknowledge that there were other, less extreme, options for how to do so). In any case, as mentioned above, I don't really have a firm opinion on the punishment itself - other than the fact that I believe the situation did warrant some kind of punishment - nor do I wish to spend any more time addressing that subject here. What I'd like to do in this blog is plead my case for why NaNi's actions were completely unacceptable, not only to the 30-35% of the community blaming GOM for the incident, but also to the other 60-65% of the community who agree that NaNi's actions were unacceptable, but for reasons different from mine.

Let me preface my further comments by saying that this is not a personal attack (or, really, an attack of any kind) on NaNiWa, Quantic, or its CEO, Mark Ferraz. I've met both NaNi and Mark in person many times, and I've only experienced the utmost professionalism from them in all of our face-to-face interactions. Actually, this commentary isn't really about NaNiwa, or Quantic, or Mark, at all. It's about a player making a particular decision, and why that decision is not acceptable.

--

As most of you know, IdrA is one of my team's most high-profile players. He's also been involved in some of the more controversial moments in SC2 history (most notably, his early GG's against MMA and HuK). Now, as of late, these kinds of occurrences are much less frequent for Greg - to his credit, he has improved that aspect of his play tremendously. But, back when leaving the game too early was a both common and serious problem for IdrA, people (both fans and community pillars alike) would often ask, "What, exactly, is EG's stance on this? Are they trying to prevent it from happening? Are they talking to IdrA about it? If not, when are they going to step in and do something about it?" The reality is that we really didn't want to intervene, for the most part. Even after the storied games against HuK and MMA, we really didn't say much, other than to be supportive of Greg and let him know that we were there for him. We approached the situation this way for a very long time because we felt that it was Greg's problem to solve (and, to his credit, he eventually did for the most part solve it). However, after taking a passive approach for almost a year, something happened that we felt required our direct intervention.

Last September, in TL Open #22, IdrA faced Nerchio in the bo3 Semifinals. After dropping the first map to some surprise baneling pressure from Nerchio, Greg's frustration boiled over, and he forfeited the second game of the bo3, giving Nerchio the free win and a spot in the finals. This was, frankly, completely unacceptable. And I expressed this point to Greg without any sugar-coating. Out of the many early GG- and bad manner-related IdrA moments that have taken place during his tenure on EG, this was the first time I felt that I needed to step in and say something. And as of now, it's still the only time I've tapped Greg on the shoulder.

--

There are (for the most part) three kinds of situations in which players usually throw matches, or don't put forth maximum effort. There's Scenario A, in which throwing the match would be in the player's own best interests (example: Stephano vs. BratOK at Assembly Summer 2011, in which both players did their best to the lose the match because they each wanted to avoid facing Sen in bracket play). There's Scenario B, in which the match is meaningless for the player himself, but has meaning for his opponent and/or a third-party (example: IdrA vs. White-Ra at the IPL3 Finals, in which IdrA forfeited because he had already qualified for bracket play - which was seeded randomly - and wanted to get some rest). And then, there's Scenario C, in which the match is truly meaningless, and throwing it would be due purely to the fact that the player (for whatever reason) doesn't put forth the time and effort required to play for real (example: NaNi's probe rush vs. NesTea, which sparked all of the recent community discussion and commentary, including this blog).

Scenarios A, B, and C all happen, regularly, in professional sports. At the end of almost every regular season in leagues like the NFL, NBA, NHL and Major League Baseball, there are teams that have the opportunity to determine their first-round playoff opponent, or to prevent a certain team from qualifying for the playoffs, by tanking a couple of games (Scenario A). And, during absolutely every regular season in such leagues, there are teams who are eliminated from playoff contention well before the season is over, but still have to play out their schedules in full - including games against other teams who are still in the playoff hunt (Scenario B). And, lastly, also every regular season in such leagues, there are games late in the schedule between teams who have both already been eliminated from playoff contention (Scenario C).

Now, to be fair, there's a difference between throwing a match, and not putting forth maximum effort, and just not playing well - and that difference is subject to a massive gray area. Professional sports teams often bench their best players in the final game of the regular season, if they've already made the playoffs and their playoff opponent has already been determined. Does that mean that they're throwing the game? Most would say, no. But, what about a sports team that does have something to gain by losing its last game of the season, and starts its best players, but they all happen to have off days? Did the team throw the match? Did the players not try as hard as they could've? Or did the the team try hard, but just not play well? That's a much more complex question, with no uniform answer.

Additionally, while most would agree that flat out throwing a match isn't a good thing, things get much murkier when the subject shifts to effort and passion. Is it necessarily unacceptable, dishonorable or disrespectful to the sport for a team or player to not put forth maximum effort, every game or match? Again, that's a complicated question, and it has no blanket answer. For a highly-paid player or team that's phoning it in on a regular basis, many would say the answer is yes. But, if two last-place MLB teams are facing off on the last day of the regular season, should both sides really be expected to play their hearts out? Many would say, no.

--

The bottom line is that players and teams - in all professional sports - regularly find themselves in Scenarios A, B, and C. And they correspondingly - in all professional sports - throw matches; don't try their hardest on every occasion; and play poorly at convenient times. Furthermore, in most of these situations, it's not even possible to discern which of those three (or what combination thereof) is truly the case - let alone to try and determine, with any level of certainty, whether or not what's happened is unacceptable, or dishonorable, or disrespectful to the sport and its community. Essentially, for the vast majority of situations like these, there are two massive layers of subjectivity standing in the way of any objective conclusion or analysis. That's why you very rarely see league officials involve themselves in such matters.

But if that's the case, then what's the point of this very, very long - sorry... it's just my style - write-up? I stated at the beginning of this blog that NaNiwa's decision to probe rush NesTea was absolutely unacceptable; that I believe everyone in our community should view it as unacceptable; and that I support GOM's decision to levy punishment on NaNi (the severity of the punishment is a different subject altogether). Yet, I've basically used the past five paragraphs to make the argument that... well... that it's not really possible to put together a definitive argument about situations like this one; that they're all just part of professional sports.

So, what's my point?

My point is that in all of the scenarios, examples, and hypotheticals I've outlined above, the player or team - at the very least - still did its job, put on a show for the spectators, and delivered a quality product to its respective league. All of them, of course, except for the one we're all so feverishly discussing.

--

Direct, community-to-industry revenue is the single, most important aspect of both the short- and long-term stability and growth of eSports. The StarCraft 2 community's willingness and enthusiasm to support its teams, players, and tournaments - by watching ads on their streams, buying their merchandise, and purchasing their subscriptions and season passes - has contributed, more than any other factor, to the amazing growth we've seen over the past year and a half. The term "ecosystem" is a buzzword as of late for those of us on the business side of the industry, because we all recognize the fact that in order for eSports to keep growing and find stability, the industry needs to become more self-sustaining, and less reliant on outside income, like corporate sponsorships.

In line with this, selling subscriptions and season passes is, obviously, crucially important to GOM.TV's business model. And ultimately, the quality of their product is defined by the entertainment value of their matches. So, when one of the world's most famous players, in an exciting grudge match (regardless of the players' records in their group), decides to probe rush in front of thousands upon thousands of spectators, many of whom are paying subscribers, he's single-handedly denying GOM a quality product to deliver to its consumer base. That is, simply, unacceptable. It is, objectively, bad for everyone who cares about eSports.

--

Now, I actually find nothing wrong with the fact that NaNi didn't want (or didn't have the mental energy, depending on what you believe) to put forth his best effort against NesTea in the Blizzard Cup. Given some of the names on EG's roster, I'd be a pretty massive hypocrite if I criticized NaNiwa's actions on that basis. With EG's players, I'm actually very understanding of the fact that they have a limited amount of mental energy, and that they're constantly working to improve their own mental toughness. However, no matter how tired or frustrated you are, there's absolutely no excuse for not giving the spectators and fans what they showed up for. This is why, of all the controversial situations that IdrA's been involved in, the only time I felt the need to intervene was when he forfeited a match that was being streamed live to thousands of spectators.*

We don't know whether NaNi was exhausted, or frustrated, or unmotivated, or just didn't care about winning the game (for whatever reason). But, frankly, we don't need to; his actions were absolutely unacceptable, regardless of their reasoning. If he wasn't feeling up to putting forth maximum effort (again, for whatever reason), he could've just done a two-base all-in, or four-gated, or executed one of many other strategies that would've almost certainly ended the game in ten minutes or less.

I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers. What NaNiwa did was basically akin to a last-place MLB team, during its final game of the season, intentionally striking out in every at bat. Just imagine what would happen in that situation: fans would ask for their money back; advertising contracts would be violated; and the league would certainly take action against the team and its players - just like GOM did with NaNi - in order to protect its product.

For those of you who, after reading this, agree that NaNi's actions were unacceptable, but still blame GOM for utilizing a format which allows for inconsequential matches, I would ask you to consider holding players to higher standards of professionalism; and to also consider the fact that it's not GOM's responsibility to cater their format solely to suit players. GOM's job (as is the case with any professional sports league) is to provide a quality product to its viewers, while providing its competitors with fair, reasonable playing conditions, and the Blizzard Cup's format balanced these factors acceptably. Additionally, I would also point out the fact that, as illustrated above, every major professional sports league utilizes a format in which there are meaningless games. By your logic, All-Star games shouldn't even exist.

Ultimately, in order for eSports to be successful, whether short-term or long-term, players, teams, and tournaments must each pull their weight appropriately. Without all parties contributing, the industry cannot produce a quality product for our fans and community. And without a quality product being produced, there's no community-to-industry revenue, and there's no self-sustaining ecosystem.

Some of you may see my comments as an overreaction, or as blowing things out of proportion - does one probe rush really warrant all of this text? I think so, and I believe that my comments hold an appropriate amount of concern. NaNiwa is one of the most famous players in all of StarCraft 2. He receives a significant salary from his professional team. The tournament in which he was competing was run by the world's most prestigious StarCraft 2 league, whose audience contains a greater percentage of paying subscribers than any other league. But, even with everyone around him meeting their respective obligations - with his team supporting him; with the league providing his playing field and broadcasting his match; and with the community watching advertisements and purchasing subscriptions - the system won't work unless NaNi also meets his obligations.

Against NesTea, NaNiwa didn't do his part. That's why I find his actions to be unacceptable. And that's why you should, too.

NaNi, you're an incredible player, with thousands upon thousands of fans who just want to see you play. Next time, play.

Alex Garfield
CEO, Evil Geniuses
@ottersareneat on Twitter

*For those of you eager to pull out the pitchforks, the IPL3/White-Ra situation is quite different; at the time of IdrA's match against White-Ra, IPL3 was already behind schedule, and didn't even have time to broadcast all of its remaining group play matches.


thanks for your point of view. i agree on some parts, but have to disagree on others. if i understood you correctly you expect players to put on a show, but on the same hand can understand that they will not play their best (such as teams out of the playoff race). so, let's assume naniwa would have executed a half hearted 4 gate, which would be probably fine with your argumentation (he played the match somewhat, but not his best). do you think that the audience would be excited more?
as a viewer and i think there are many more feeling the same way a meaningless isn't exciting at all. for me it is contradicting that on one the hand people accept that players will not give their best and may lack motivation in a meaningless match but on other hand expect a good show.
when watching the game i can definitely see people are upset about what naniwa did in this game and it didn't help e-sport, but as others have mentioned before. why playing a meaningless game. it is neither liked by many players nor entertaining for many viewers. your argument here is you expect more professionalism out of players. well, that would mean to always play your best disregarding the meaning of the match or your personal situation. i believe this is too much to expect from human beings.
purgerinho
Profile Joined June 2008
Croatia919 Posts
December 16 2011 14:42 GMT
#572
well, this post was very confusing to me. First, there is no excuse for Naniwa, after that there is explanation why there is excuse, and in the end there is no excuse. I think that everything could be said in some shorter post. Now I really don't know what is perspective on the Naniwa controvery. I really don't.

Or maybe this post is made by 3 different persons? ^^
SUMMARIZED (by DeMu): You CANNOT surprise a top level Protoss with a build
Arjofski
Profile Joined June 2011
England43 Posts
December 16 2011 15:38 GMT
#573
I think its quite a relevant point that every example you used from other American sports is that they are Team Sports, so if one player isn't emotionally invested in the game it won't necessarily effect the overall outcome or, as the general point of your blog makes, the final broadcasted product.

Also relating back to the team sports point generally, at least in England, when the end of the football season comes and teams have a match which might mean nothing (rare due to the structure of the leagues) and they choose to field a weakened team those players that step in to replace the first-teamers will have been waiting for their chance to show the manager what they can really do and therefore will try harder and have actual motivation, and well I doubt I need to make it clear why that relates to Naniwa.

Without motivation a player will never perform at their best, without a player performing at their best the final broadcasted product will not be the same, so therefore the customer is not getting what they deserve. A good way to stop this in single player sports would be to avoid meaningless games.

Note: I consider it a meaningless game in the sense the players had no gain whatsoever from the result and I essentially believe the players should come first.
http://www.starcrafthub.net/index <- Why aren't you there?
The_Piper42
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States426 Posts
December 16 2011 15:55 GMT
#574
On December 15 2011 18:08 Adebisi wrote:
I agree with what you say everywhere more or less (could be nitpicky on certain details and analogies maybe I guess) but I think the one point you miss is that games that do not matter for the progression of the tournament/league should not be broadcast. Ultimately if you want to advocate preserving the integrity of GOMtv's product, the tournament structure must create only games that actually matter (or just be ready to not play/broadcast irrelevent games, simply following the precedent they set in up/down matches) otherwise this situation will rise again, it may not be as blatant as a probe rush (and given this shit storm, I'm shirt it won't), but it will happen again.


In a tournament like Blizzard Cup part of the main allure is the games between the high profile players. It's very much like an all-star match where considerable entertainment is derived from the matches along the way. I feel many non-invitational tournaments wouldn't have as much of a problem here.
Boxer, White-Ra, Grubby, Flash fighting!
Coated
Profile Joined August 2011
United States74 Posts
December 16 2011 16:15 GMT
#575
On December 17 2011 00:55 The_Piper42 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 18:08 Adebisi wrote:
I agree with what you say everywhere more or less (could be nitpicky on certain details and analogies maybe I guess) but I think the one point you miss is that games that do not matter for the progression of the tournament/league should not be broadcast. Ultimately if you want to advocate preserving the integrity of GOMtv's product, the tournament structure must create only games that actually matter (or just be ready to not play/broadcast irrelevent games, simply following the precedent they set in up/down matches) otherwise this situation will rise again, it may not be as blatant as a probe rush (and given this shit storm, I'm shirt it won't), but it will happen again.


In a tournament like Blizzard Cup part of the main allure is the games between the high profile players. It's very much like an all-star match where considerable entertainment is derived from the matches along the way. I feel many non-invitational tournaments wouldn't have as much of a problem here.


Agreed. This is for Esports and players need to keep this in the back of their minds. These Pro's/players wouldn't be shit without the fans. They wouldn't get money, they wouldn't be able to make a living playing Starcraft and would be reduced to some geek who plays games to much. People pay to see these games people. They want some entertainment and high level action. If you can't understand this, then maybe you should go back to being a geek who plays games to much.

Now, on the flip side, this was a blessing in disguise. (Even though this wasn't Naniwas intentions). If you know anything about show business (which is what this is), is that publicity (good or bad) is good. Naniwa has inadvertently benefited Esports than some game like Naniwa Vs Nestea ever would have.
Another one bites the dust
D_K_night
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada615 Posts
December 16 2011 16:27 GMT
#576
On December 15 2011 23:13 Chrill wrote:
Drama queens, jesus. This whole thing is so blown out of proportion that it's silly. I'm embarrassed for the whole community. Yes, he fucked up. We know. The only reason why we're still talking about this is because there's nothing else going on in SC2 right now. No one is going to give two shits about this a month from now. Stop throwing more wood to the fire, all these threads are silly. Also, this korean honor thing is just a bunch of BS. Korean honor isn't worth a damn. You can do whatever the fuck you want in their honor code as long as you're sneaky about it. I.E, a four-gate would be totally acceptable. Removing his Code S is completely unacceptable punishment made up by some imaginary rule or something, it's just GOM being bullies, saying that if you dont play their kind of game they'll punish you, severely. It's all about keeping that fake exterior up, nothing else.


Pretty disrespectful of you say things like that against Koreans. Interestingly enough, where are the Koreans who attack your Swedish heritage? Probably too mannered for that.

Ask yourself if Boxer would have done the same thing as Naniwa. You know the answer.
Canada
Sejanus
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Lithuania550 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 16:46:14
December 16 2011 16:45 GMT
#577
Very true, 100% agree with everything. This was clearly an opinion of mature, professional person who can see a bigger picture.
Friends don't let friends massacre civilians
D_K_night
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada615 Posts
December 16 2011 16:51 GMT
#578
Those of you defending Naniwa till the end, think about yourselves for a moment and what you do for a living.

When you're wearing the uniform of the company(even if you don't, but stay with me here), you represent the company do you not? Fair to say that they pay your living wages(even if you're on commission)?

So when you have an upset customer staring you down, shouting obscenities - corporate policy dictates that you listen, calm the customer down, realize that he's just venting, and needs time to calm down and be reasonable with you. You've done this a million times.

Then one day your emotional state is a bit fragile(for any number of things that happened). Another irate customer starts to do a number on your mental well being. Do you:

a) lose it, shout right back at the customer and start a fight;
b) adopt a "woe is me, i just work here" attitude
c) stay calm, collected, professional, and follow company procedures as per normal

I really hope that you guys have to wisdom to know which is the correct answer.
Canada
Methy
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom74 Posts
December 16 2011 17:15 GMT
#579
I would just like to say I've never really respected Naniwa as a person... until now.

I actually admire the fact that he was honest about his feelings towards the game, if we accept that no player in the world would have provided their best game in that scenario (even if you are willing to put in effort to the game you will *not* bring out your best strategy in an inconsequential game), then an honest admission of that, regardless of the extremity, is not something I'd even consider getting upset over.

I find it slightly worrying that GOM were comfortable with Stephano being at the Blizzard Cup, but punish Naniwa. I lost *all* respect for Stephano and BratOK after that ASUS series, and will pretty much never support them ever again. What I find most curious, however, was that I'm pretty sure if Naniwa was in the same position as BratOK and Stephano his response would've been 'Oh I have to play Sen if I win? Guess I'll just beat Sen then...' and he would've actively sought out the challenge. It's all conjecture ofcourse, but I've gotta say I have a lot more respect for that type of approach.


There's a difference between not wanting to play a game and deliberately insulting the intelligence of the viewer - which is exactly what Stephano and BratOK did.

If Naniwa had gone with a 4gate as everyone suggests I would've had absolutely no respect for him, if you're not interested in participating in a game, don't put on a mock show just because 'the fans' are watching, or 'it's good for ESports.' Infact I think such actions are actually detrimental for the 'good of Esports'

And you're quite correct Mr. Garfield, this sort of thing does happen regularly, but I feel sick and lose respect for a player when they DO put on a show just because the fans are watching. If I want to watch a game, I want to watch a game of the fiercest competition possible. If the game setting is not conducive to competition, that's a problem with the setting, not the players. When those situations come up I usually don't watch the games even when my favorite players are playing.

I think it's TERRIBLE to set a precedent where putting on a sham performance in a match is *more* acceptable than forfeiting a match, and I've felt this way for a very long time.

I think Naniwa's approach *should be the universal approach* and yes, I think it 'for the good of ESports.' Sure, lay heavy punishments in scenarios when the games *actually* carry some significance, but every player should have the right to tap out of a game that A) means nothing and B) they have no interest in playing. If doing so loses them fans, that is *their* issue, not Gom's issue.

As an aside: I respect the right for broadcasters to set up clauses in tournament signups requiring players not to throw any games... but those clasues need to be present *before* the tournament is played out. I personally would respect a tournament less for enforcing such laws.

tl:dr: I think it's TERRIBLE to set a precedent where putting on a sham performance in a match is *more* acceptable than forfeiting a match in cases where a game carrys no weight.
<3 Nony
TmD_Disquiet
Profile Joined November 2011
United States3 Posts
December 16 2011 17:22 GMT
#580
This is a fantastic post and echoes my sentiments exactly. I respect Naniwa's play immensely, and as ardent fan of e-sports and a spectator, I was expecting another fantastic ZvP (my favorite matchup) and to just witness that was unacceptable for exactly the reasons you have stated. Everyone here wants eSports to take off to even greater heights, and throwing matches on probe vs. drone wars does us no favors.
We weep for the bird's cry but not the fish's blood. Blessed are those who have voice. - GitS 2
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