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A Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 27

Blogs > EGalex
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Goibon
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand8185 Posts
December 16 2011 04:44 GMT
#521
On December 16 2011 11:47 Wiklober wrote:
I have seen alot of "real" sports comparisons in the Nainwa situation. Lots of sports leagues have meaningless regular season games but can you compare that with SC2, I would say no due to the fact that the formats of most SC2 tournaments are so short and intense that they compare better to playoffs in the sports world. Naniwa had heartbreaking losses to be out of the tournament and was required to within the hour play a game of no importance, I have a hard time seeing professional sports players playing allstar games whitin the hour of a loss in a game 7 of the playoffs. I know in sports physical exaustion prevents this but this is a emotional state I think is more comparable.

This post does not hold any judgement for any part of the situation, just highlighting my opinion to not having meaniless games.

This is how i feel about the sport comparisons too. They're rubbish. But add on to that the fact that in professional sports a player is never alone. There is always someone there to support them. Naniwa didn't have this. Was anyone from the GOM house with him to act as a coach? He, a 21 year old kid, was left alone to make an error in judgement in a highly emotional state.

In real sports the coach subs you, or takes you from the field, or sends you home to wait to play next week. In real sports this shit just doesn't happen because they're able to take the decision out of the player's hands. GOM could have done this but chose to put their meaningless Bo1 ahead of the wants and needs of a young player.

And i'm not blaming Quantic or whoever for not being there to support Naniwa when he needed it the most (although i think Naniwa really needed a friend to help him out). My point is just that this isn't a real sport, yet. It's solo competitors doing what it is best for them. It feels more like watching mercenaries than watching a true professional scene. We've got a long way to go before a player in a foreign country can afford to have the support around him required to prevent these situations from happening when the organizers are too gutless/clueless/ignorant to take the initiative and prevent it themselves. Until such a time as this support is standard it is just wrong to lump the burdens of professionalism onto people not ready for it. You can't wave a magic wand and say this is professional when it's absolutely not.

The real sport comparisons get even dumber when you compare this to match throwing. In real sports matches are thrown when an entire team agrees to do it. It's a top to bottom agreement from board to managers to coaches to players, and to an extent fans will buy into it too because they know its the best decision for the team (give young players more experience, or tank so you get better draft picks, etc). All of this decision making was lumped into one 21 year old kid who wasn't in a sound state of mind.

That comparison isn't fair. I want people to take a step back and remember we're dealing with kids here. Not professionals. Not even adults. These human beings aren't perfect. If they were they would be robots. I don't pay to see robots. I pay to see people like me who are better at SC2 than i am. I pay to see personalities and emotions, people i can relate to and root for. In real sports these people have massive support structures surrounding them to help them through situations like this. Naniwa did not. Give the kid a break.
Leenock =^_^= Ryung =^_^= Parting =^_^= herO =^_^= Guilty
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
December 16 2011 04:59 GMT
#522
great post, agreed on all points
Yhamm is the god of predictions
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 05:20:16
December 16 2011 05:16 GMT
#523
On December 16 2011 13:44 Goibon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 11:47 Wiklober wrote:
I have seen alot of "real" sports comparisons in the Nainwa situation. Lots of sports leagues have meaningless regular season games but can you compare that with SC2, I would say no due to the fact that the formats of most SC2 tournaments are so short and intense that they compare better to playoffs in the sports world. Naniwa had heartbreaking losses to be out of the tournament and was required to within the hour play a game of no importance, I have a hard time seeing professional sports players playing allstar games whitin the hour of a loss in a game 7 of the playoffs. I know in sports physical exaustion prevents this but this is a emotional state I think is more comparable.

This post does not hold any judgement for any part of the situation, just highlighting my opinion to not having meaniless games.

This is how i feel about the sport comparisons too. They're rubbish. But add on to that the fact that in professional sports a player is never alone. There is always someone there to support them. Naniwa didn't have this. Was anyone from the GOM house with him to act as a coach? He, a 21 year old kid, was left alone to make an error in judgement in a highly emotional state.

In real sports the coach subs you, or takes you from the field, or sends you home to wait to play next week. In real sports this shit just doesn't happen because they're able to take the decision out of the player's hands. GOM could have done this but chose to put their meaningless Bo1 ahead of the wants and needs of a young player.

And i'm not blaming Quantic or whoever for not being there to support Naniwa when he needed it the most (although i think Naniwa really needed a friend to help him out). My point is just that this isn't a real sport, yet. It's solo competitors doing what it is best for them. It feels more like watching mercenaries than watching a true professional scene. We've got a long way to go before a player in a foreign country can afford to have the support around him required to prevent these situations from happening when the organizers are too gutless/clueless/ignorant to take the initiative and prevent it themselves. Until such a time as this support is standard it is just wrong to lump the burdens of professionalism onto people not ready for it. You can't wave a magic wand and say this is professional when it's absolutely not.

The real sport comparisons get even dumber when you compare this to match throwing. In real sports matches are thrown when an entire team agrees to do it. It's a top to bottom agreement from board to managers to coaches to players, and to an extent fans will buy into it too because they know its the best decision for the team (give young players more experience, or tank so you get better draft picks, etc). All of this decision making was lumped into one 21 year old kid who wasn't in a sound state of mind.

That comparison isn't fair. I want people to take a step back and remember we're dealing with kids here. Not professionals. Not even adults. These human beings aren't perfect. If they were they would be robots. I don't pay to see robots. I pay to see people like me who are better at SC2 than i am. I pay to see personalities and emotions, people i can relate to and root for. In real sports these people have massive support structures surrounding them to help them through situations like this. Naniwa did not. Give the kid a break.


I'm almost certain you never got around to my anecdote just like the rest. There are many valid examples.

Never alone? Try Tennis. Rarely does a coach talk to their player when they're on the court. Anyway, I'd like to see you try to dissect what I said earlier in this blog. There's a reason why no one wants to touch it with a four foot pole.

Because it works.
felisconcolori
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States6168 Posts
December 16 2011 05:17 GMT
#524
An interesting post. Thank you for making it.

However, if this is truly to become eSports, then competition and the quality of the competition must be paramount over the entertainment aspect. Would we rather be the World Wrestling Entertainment or the UFC style of event? (Don't get me wrong, I liked the intros in a recent tournament which are straight out of the WWE handbook, with lights, music, and smoke.) Is our primary product to be entertainment (the games must be entertaining!) or competition (games must matter!)?

Your professional sports analogies are good, but not quite true. In professional team sports, ALL games matter; if not for the season, than for the franchise. Either by continuing to prove that it's worth the municipality given a stadium to the team, or by jockeying for the best possible draft choices, every game matters to the entire group.

A better comparison may be made by utilizing professional boxing - a sport in which it is a solo (non-team) endeavor (I apologize, but I care less at present in eSports history about the team attached to the player, than the player him/herself) generally broadcast as a pay per view event which sometimes has questionable matches and actions. (30 second first round knock-outs are accepted, if disliked, by customers and advertisers both; that's just the way it happens sometimes. But it's not the norm.) Naniwa did not put forth his best effort, but there is no incentive for him to do so - except for GOM's reaction. And that may set a poor precedent. It allows a precedent to be set that the entertainment value of the match is more important than the competitive value of a match. I would've enjoyed a good Nestea/Naniwa match - but with a flat pay structure at that level, and nothing else at stake, there was no overriding reason for either to put forward their best efforts. If for no other reason than not revealing a new play style or denying opponents an opportunity to have another replay to analyze. (Another scenario you might wish to add to your list - sometimes teams will play less optimally against one opponent to deny possible intelligence to a future opponent.)

And with regards to Greg/Idra - he doesn't play games in that position either that I have seen. Once he has placed towards the bottom of the pay list, he fails to play further even in events which have some distinction between the bottom payed results - this happened in Orlando and was commented on by other people at that event. (In his defense, he played a loooong streak of games beforehand.) He did it again in Providence. And anecdotal evidence suggests it's the norm.

Your arguments are very good, but I still don't think the true core of the issue has been reached by any party. Nor can I articulated it very well - but I hope that there is some move towards major events coordinating better, and teams and players doing a better job, in explicitly defining what is expected. (But never ban excessive celebrating. Murloc dance is great.)

Also, good wishes to all of EG.
Yes, I email sponsors... to thank them. Don't post drunk, kids. My king, what has become of you?
TheKK
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada164 Posts
December 16 2011 05:29 GMT
#525
Oh wow Alex, I'm so glad you made this blog post. That's exactly how I felt about this situation and I'm happy that you've made more people aware about this side of the issue.
Kahuna.
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada196 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 05:44:00
December 16 2011 05:33 GMT
#526
On December 16 2011 01:23 StarStruck wrote:
In some scenarios general managers and coaches are fined by the league if they cross certain boundaries. One of them being, speaking out about a player's work ethic that isn't on your team.

In some scenarios, yes... clearly not in this one though.

On December 16 2011 01:23 StarStruck wrote:
Now let me address GOM. Let's say GOM was the actual team that you came out to see. You bought your ticket to the dance. You have the right to boo or cheer. Certain players show up for work (MMA, MVP, etc.) whereas others don't.

I like hockey, so I'll continue down that road. I'd say Johan showed up for the first fifty minutes of the game. He put up a valiant effort, but he fell apart in the last ten minutes as the game became lopsided. The effort and passion was there in the first fifty. People cheered, but as it became a blowout. The fans started to boo!

I think you get the picture. We have to look at the whole.

Once again, the team played their heart in the first fifty, but once the game didn't matter anymore. Shit hit the fan and stupid penalties were taken (Johan took a fighting major and a game misconduct). It's just one game. Have to wait till the next day!

That's how I picture it anyway.

You are comparing 4 separate SC2 games as if they're a single hockey game. They are not. He played the first 3 games valiantly. The last one he did not show up for (or rather, he showed up for and took a shit on it). Irrelevant comparison.

On December 16 2011 14:17 felisconcolori wrote:
Your professional sports analogies are good, but not quite true. In professional team sports, ALL games matter; if not for the season, than for the franchise. Either by continuing to prove that it's worth the municipality given a stadium to the team, or by jockeying for the best possible draft choices, every game matters to the entire group.

And in the case of SC2 and Naniwa every game matters as well (even if it doesn't contribute to the player's progression in a tournament). The proof is the fact that we're having this debate. The sooner players realize that their actions in game reflect upon their professionality, their competitive spirit, and the perception of E-Sports as a legitimate competition, the better it is for E-Sports overall. That game vs. NesTea mattered... if it didn't we wouldn't be talking about it and Naniwa wouldn't have gotten punished for it. Now that other players know that, we won't have them behave that way... at least not in GOM's events... and hopefully - in the near future - in no other events. Childishness, emotional instability and lack of professionalism have no place in competition and no place in E-Sports.
"Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit."
ThaZenith
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada3116 Posts
December 16 2011 05:41 GMT
#527
Like the comparisons, and agree overall. Anyone who wasn't mad at not getting to see Naniwa vs Nestea doesn't like SC2 enough. xD
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 05:48:36
December 16 2011 05:44 GMT
#528
On December 16 2011 14:33 Kahuna. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 01:23 StarStruck wrote:
In some scenarios general managers and coaches are fined by the league if they cross certain boundaries. One of them being, speaking out about a player's work ethic that isn't on your team.

In some scenarios, yes... clearly not in this one though.

Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 01:23 StarStruck wrote:
Now let me address GOM. Let's say GOM was the actual team that you came out to see. You bought your ticket to the dance. You have the right to boo or cheer. Certain players show up for work (MMA, MVP, etc.) whereas others don't.

I like hockey, so I'll continue down that road. I'd say Johan showed up for the first fifty minutes of the game. He put up a valiant effort, but he fell apart in the last ten minutes as the game became lopsided. The effort and passion was there in the first fifty. People cheered, but as it became a blowout. The fans started to boo!

I think you get the picture. We have to look at the whole.

Once again, the team played their heart in the first fifty, but once the game didn't matter anymore. Shit hit the fan and stupid penalties were taken (Johan took a fighting major and a game misconduct). It's just one game. Have to wait till the next day!

That's how I picture it anyway.

You are comparing 4 separate SC2 games as if they're a single hockey game. They are not. He played the first 3 games valiantly. The last one he did not show up for (or rather, he showed up for and took a shit on it). Irrelevant comparison.


There is no governing body for SC2. That's why someone like Alex can get away with such hypocrisy when he talks about other player's work ethic. Because that's what this argument comes down to. Work ethic. This is not how professionals carry themselves.

-

That's why I said you have to look at the whole opposed to the pieces. All 9 matches were played back-to-back. Your ticket was for the entire card and every stanza counts towards the final result. Not just one match as you say. Thus the anecdote has tact.

I could write many more scenarios, but I'm almost certain they would fall on deaf ears because no one reads an entire blog and they hear only what they want to hear.
Kahuna.
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada196 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 06:02:09
December 16 2011 05:54 GMT
#529
On December 16 2011 14:44 StarStruck wrote:
There is no governing body for SC2. That's why someone like Alex can get away with such hypocrisy when he talks about other player's work ethic. Because that's what this argument comes down to. Work ethic. This is not how professionals carry themselves.

-

That's why I said you have to look at the whole opposed to the pieces. All 9 matches were played back-to-back. Your ticket was for the entire card. Not just one match as you say. Thus the anecdote has tact.

Not really sure what you're talking about... there was no governing body that stopped all the analysts, GMs, owners, coaches, former players, former coaches from sharing their opinions on Lebron's movement from Cleveland to Miami. If there was one, I certainly don't think it acted up on its apparent duty of "not discussing the choices of other players"... In other words, I question the existence of such an organization, at least when it comes to the NBA. I recall quite vividly that I heard a flood of opinions on that choice of LBJ. So, Alex isn't guilty of hypocrisy in any way, except for the way in which you claim (which isn't very clear to me as of yet).

On another note, you're using the manner in which tickets are sold in E-Sports as a way to justify your comparison of four SC2 games to one hockey game. I really don't see why that shows that the anecdote has tact, but if it does to you then to each his own. But I am curious... if I purchase a four-game package deal to four Lakers games and they play well for the first three but decide to take a shit on the court during the last of the four games... am I entitled to a refund of the portion of my purchase that corresponded to that last game? Or should I once again think of it as a whole (as you suggest)?... They played well during the first of those four games and since my package was for all four, I shouldn't complain that they were unprofessional during the last one? Seriously? I am sorry, but I think you can clearly see that your argument and your 'anecdote which has tact' falls apart here.

EDIT:
The four-game package is arbitrary... you can consider it a season ticket if you like. Either way do you think that since I purchased a season ticket, I shouldn't complain about the one game during which the team decided to be unprofessional? If you do... then I have to question the way you reason.
"Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit."
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 06:20:57
December 16 2011 06:09 GMT
#530
On December 16 2011 14:54 Kahuna. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 14:44 StarStruck wrote:
There is no governing body for SC2. That's why someone like Alex can get away with such hypocrisy when he talks about other player's work ethic. Because that's what this argument comes down to. Work ethic. This is not how professionals carry themselves.

-

That's why I said you have to look at the whole opposed to the pieces. All 9 matches were played back-to-back. Your ticket was for the entire card. Not just one match as you say. Thus the anecdote has tact.

Not really sure what you're talking about... there was no governing body that stopped all the analysts, GMs, owners, coaches, former players, former coaches from sharing their opinions on Lebron's movement from Cleveland to Miami. If there was one, I certainly don't think it acted up on its apparent duty of "not discussing the choices of other players"... In other words, I question the existence of such an organization, at least when it comes to the NBA. I recall quite vividly that I heard a flood of opinions on that choice of LBJ. So, Alex isn't guilty of hypocrisy in any way, except for the way in which you claim (which isn't very clear to me as of yet).

On another note, you're using the manner in which tickets are sold in E-Sports as a way to justify your comparison of four SC2 games to one hockey game. I really don't see why that shows that the anecdote has tact, but if it does to you then to each his own. But I am curious... if I buy a four-game package to four Lakers games and they play well for the first three but decide to take a shit on the court during the last of the four games... am I entitled to refund of that last game. Or should I once again thinking of it as a whole (as you suggest)... They played well during the first of those four games and since my package was for all four, I shouldn't complain that they were unprofessional during the last one. I am sorry, but I think you can clearly see that your argument and your 'anecdote which has tact' falls apart here.


You are missing the point. GM's and coaches do not question other player's work ethic. It isn't their job to. Thus the Lebron move has no relevancy because they weren't questioning Lebron's work ethic. Pat Quinn and numerous other coaches have been fined heftily by the leagues for doing such demeanor's. It can carry a 5 to 6 digit price tag.

Hell, even calling another player's hit dirty can hit you hard:

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=501664

(Note: that wasn't the one I was looking for, but it should suffice. Just realize that professional organizations highly frown upon upper management and coaching staff calling out players that aren't on their roster because it's viewed as very unprofessional.)

The reason why the anecdote works is because all 9 matches count towards one thing. Which two players move onto the next round.

Each game won can be viewed as the individual athlete's productivity for the day. If we stick to the hockey reference, goals for/goals against.

At the end of the game if there is a blowout, you can expect the losing team to try and start a fight out of frustration. You aren't entitled to a refund because a player didn't show up to work on that given day. I already explained that with Vince Carter and Phil Kessel. Only thing you are entitled to is booing your team because they gave up and lacked effort. You weren't happy with their performance and that is fine.

I already explained this. Seems like I'm going in circles.
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
December 16 2011 06:19 GMT
#531
I was almost turned round on this issue by your post Alex. Almost ;p

My main argument against your views is the way you draw a line from people who pay for a subscription to an entire tournament and people who pay to see their team play in an MLB/NBA match. No one paid for the blizz cup just to see 1 game between Nani and NesTea, they paid to see the whole thing. People who pay to see a team play their last game of the season in MLB actually paid specifically to see that team play, and would be rightly aggrieved if said team decided to strike out all game.

Should Nani have just 4gated? probably. Should he be punished for throwing a game? yes. Was what he did in any way comparable to a sports team throwing a match for which thousands of people specifically paid to see? A resounding No.

I pay for Sky Sports (UK Satellite Sports Channels), I pay for it so I can watch a lot of good sport. I'm paying for the whole package. If I turn it on and a football match is on that has no consequence and they put out their 2nd string squad and basically throw the game, am i pissed off and feel like I've paid for something I didn't get? No. Because I wasn't paying for that game, I am paying for the plethora of great content provided by the channel as a whole.

As far as I'm concerned, being that I'm a complete nobody my opinion doesn't matter anyways, Nani shouldn't have thrown the match, should suffer some small punishment (which i think he had already received in the court of public opinion, without being taken out of code S) but no player should ever be put in a position where they have to play out a game that is of no consequence.

The argument about sports teams having to do it all the time is quite clever, but that doesn't take in to account what I said above. Those teams have people who pay specifically to watch each game they play, esports hasn't come that far yet. GOM don't offer a ticket that allows you to watch a specific players games, you pay for the whole package and in my eyes that 1 game didn't detract anything from the money I paid to see the tourney. It was a meaningless game, even if people did want to see a rematch between Nani and NesTea.... it was a bo1..... if you want to see a grudgematch, you want it to be more than a bo1 and you want it to matter.....
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
Kahuna.
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada196 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 06:22:33
December 16 2011 06:20 GMT
#532
On December 16 2011 15:09 StarStruck wrote:
You are missing the point. GM's and coaches do not question other player's work ethic. It isn't their job to. Thus the Lebron move has no relevancy because they weren't questioning Lebron's work ethic. Pat Quinn and numerous other coaches have been fined heftily by the leagues for doing such demeanor's. It can carry a 5 to 6 digit price tag.

Hell, even calling another player's hit dirty can hit you hard:

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=501664

The reason why the anecdote works is because all 9 matches count towards one thing. Which two players move onto the next round.

The words 'work ethic' didn't show up in Alex's blog post... He was commenting on Naniwa's decision to probe-rush. He hasn't stated that he doesn't think Naniwa practices hard.

So the 82 games that each hockey team plays in a season leads to one thing: which 16 teams will make it into the playoffs. So if during a couple of the games, a few teams decide to stay home and watch Jerry Springer rather than show up to their games, should we not care since we have to take the whole picture of the ENTIRE season into consideration and seeing as most of the season was great, then who cares about those couple of games? Again, bad anecdote.
"Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit."
kurosawa
Profile Joined May 2011
31 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 06:32:50
December 16 2011 06:31 GMT
#533
Not sure why the need to post such a long post to basically say this:
- Players need to behave, as they are paid by teams and tournament organisers to deliver on the "product" - scary but as I also work in industry I realise this is a reality

I think, however, all of this should be a given. What really is interesting in this whole situation is the GOM-MLG mixup with awarding Code S status from Providence and the severity of punishment dealt to naniwa.

The first problem speaks to incompetencies on GOM and MLG's part to actually agree on terms of Providence re player exchange (or for the conspiracy theorists out there, GOM's shady about turn on their own rules to suit their "face-loss rectification" agenda)

The second problem here is did naniwa's punishment have to be so severe. What GOM is doing is denying naniwa of future potential earnings. Why couldnt they have just taken away his earnings from the Blizzard Cup (or make him repay flight and accom costs, as offered by GOM for foreign players selected to participate)?

Alex's view, couched in a lot of "it's bad for business", doesnt sit well with free loving freeloaders and typically socialist-inclined Scandinavians. And I understand that. But it's a business, despite what fans would like to romanticise about otherwise.
CakeMaster
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada65 Posts
December 16 2011 06:36 GMT
#534
EG seems to be the official Giant And Interesting Write Up Team.











Go (P)HuK!
EG.HuK Fighting!
Kahuna.
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada196 Posts
December 16 2011 06:37 GMT
#535
On December 16 2011 15:31 kurosawa wrote:
The second problem here is did naniwa's punishment have to be so severe. What GOM is doing is denying naniwa of future potential earnings. Why couldnt they have just taken away his earnings from the Blizzard Cup (or make him repay flight and accom costs, as offered by GOM for foreign players selected to participate)?

By doing that, you are setting a bad precedence for any similar events that occur in the future. If you give Naniwa such a puny punishment, then the next time this occurs you will also be obligated to give the same puny penalty out of fairness. But by giving him a severe punishment, you are showing that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated in your league and ensuring it won't happen again by others who may want to throw away games unprofessionally on live TV.
"Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit."
kurosawa
Profile Joined May 2011
31 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 06:44:42
December 16 2011 06:43 GMT
#536
On December 16 2011 15:37 Kahuna. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 15:31 kurosawa wrote:
The second problem here is did naniwa's punishment have to be so severe. What GOM is doing is denying naniwa of future potential earnings. Why couldnt they have just taken away his earnings from the Blizzard Cup (or make him repay flight and accom costs, as offered by GOM for foreign players selected to participate)?

By doing that, you are setting a bad precedence for any similar events that occur in the future. If you give Naniwa such a puny punishment, then the next time this occurs you will also be obligated to give the same puny penalty out of fairness. But by giving him a severe punishment, you are showing that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated in your league and ensuring it won't happen again by others who may want to throw away games unprofessionally on live TV.


Id say that you are right if he broke a black and white rule. He didn't. They took a vague rule and applied it to the situation. It's about face loss for the Koreans (and really, how dare naniwa show such disrespect to one of their own, revered players - Nestea). Nothing else. Hence the severity of the backlash.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 06:52:59
December 16 2011 06:51 GMT
#537
On December 16 2011 15:20 Kahuna. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 15:09 StarStruck wrote:
You are missing the point. GM's and coaches do not question other player's work ethic. It isn't their job to. Thus the Lebron move has no relevancy because they weren't questioning Lebron's work ethic. Pat Quinn and numerous other coaches have been fined heftily by the leagues for doing such demeanor's. It can carry a 5 to 6 digit price tag.

Hell, even calling another player's hit dirty can hit you hard:

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=501664

The reason why the anecdote works is because all 9 matches count towards one thing. Which two players move onto the next round.

The words 'work ethic' didn't show up in Alex's blog post... He was commenting on Naniwa's decision to probe-rush. He hasn't stated that he doesn't think Naniwa practices hard.

So the 82 games that each hockey team plays in a season leads to one thing: which 16 teams will make it into the playoffs. So if during a couple of the games, a few teams decide to stay home and watch Jerry Springer rather than show up to their games, should we not care since we have to take the whole picture of the ENTIRE season into consideration and seeing as most of the season was great, then who cares about those couple of games? Again, bad anecdote.


You have to read between the lines of what he said.

I made no mention of practice. Work ethic goes way beyond practice.

You can try to spin doctor it all you want. Here's where your argument falls apart. All of the matches happened on the same day. There is no rest period. No time for preparation. It's a slug fest when it happens back-to-back.

Each competitor fights one round against another opponent. There are four rounds. It's how the event is packaged. You buy your ticket to watch in the studio and it is packaged as one event.

Almost sounds like a UFC fight card, no?


With that said, I have a question for you: would you honestly go up to the ticket booth and ask for your money back when eight bouts were really entertaining and close, but Mark Hominick got KOed in the first nine seconds by the Korean Zombie?

That's very different from what happened, but I think it resonates with the idea that shit happens to great athletes all the time. Lots of people were hyped for that fight, but it was a wash.

Hershey
Profile Joined June 2011
United States12 Posts
December 16 2011 06:57 GMT
#538
On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
GOM's job (as is the case with any professional sports league) is to provide a quality product to its viewers,


This is the problem. You say, "Naniwa, just do a 2 base all-in, or some other strategy". I think that goes against what it means to try your hardest and provide quality entertainment. Honestly, the probe rush was pretty entertaining, i would have like to see naniwa try and micro it but whatever i thought it was humorous and entertaining.

I'm curious what you would recommend for both the players to do in that situation. They both had specific strats planned for each other but due to the tournament circumstances, could not reveal those strategies. So the only thing they could have done to actually "try your hardest/potential to win" is execute an old, probobly predictable build. There's no way they could have shown their strategies they had prepared and will have to save it for another time when they meet.
Cooloff
Profile Joined April 2010
United States86 Posts
December 16 2011 07:05 GMT
#539
this is lame
When you go into court you are putting your fate into the hands of twelve people who weren’t smart enough to get out of jury duty.
Kahuna.
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada196 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 07:13:35
December 16 2011 07:06 GMT
#540
On December 16 2011 15:51 StarStruck wrote:
You have to read between the lines of what he said.

I made no mention of practice. Work ethic goes way beyond practice.

You can try to spin doctor it all you want. Here's where your argument falls apart. All of the matches happened on the same day. There is no rest period. No time for preparation. It's a slug fest when it happens back-to-back.

Each competitor fights one round against another opponent. There are four rounds. It's how the event is packaged. You buy your ticket to watch in the studio and it is packaged as one event.

Almost sounds like a UFC fight card, no?


With that said, I have a question for you: would you honestly go up to the ticket booth and ask for your money back when eight bouts were really entertaining and close, but Mark Hominick got KOed in the first nine seconds by the Korean Zombie?

That's very different from what happened, but I think it resonates with the idea that shit happens to great athletes all the time. Lots of people were hyped for that fight, but it was a wash.

Work ethic may go way beyond practice... but it certainly isn't what Alex is commenting on. For lack of a better source, Wikipedia defines it as: "a set of values based on hard work and diligence". Alex isn't commenting on those types of values... rather he is discussing the professionality with which one carries oneself. Therefore Alex is not behaving unprofessionally or hypocritically as you've suggested.

And no it's not a one day event... The event isn't even over yet, there's still a day left. Justifying your anecdote with this package-deal, 'whole rather than pieces' concept makes no sense for the various reasons I have outlined in posts above. And your comparisons are so far-fetched that there's no point to arguing with you. A more reasonable comparison would be the following:

Let's assume there was a fight scheduled between Pacquiao and Mayweather (and let's further assume that there is no monetary reward for this fight, nor is it a title fight)... and upon the ringing of the bell to sound off the beginning of the the fight Mayweather walks up to Pacquiao in a non-fighting stance and holds his face out to him for the punching of a lifetime... then if we can't both agree that this would be stupid and unprofessional for Mayweather to do... then we should just agree to disagree.

But comparing four SC2 games to a single hockey game is a horrible anecdote, except perhaps in your mind and a few others. And accusing Alex of lack of professionalism is even more far-fetched... either that or one of us (in my opinion, you) doesn't know what 'work ethic' is. Is GOM also being unprofessional by commenting and condemning Naniwa's behaviour (or as you would call it 'work ethic')?
"Sorry, I'm allergic to bullshit."
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