EPTA Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 26
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:51 tripper688 wrote: The majority of name foreign SC2 pros are salaried just like their sports counterparts. Maybe not compensated to the same extent but salaried all the same. Teams typically doesn't receive salaries. Teams give their players salaries, but that's beside the point. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:57 VoirDire wrote: Teams typically doesn't receive salaries. Teams give their players salaries, but that's beside the point. We're talking about Naniwa the player, not Quantic the team. The players earn a salary to represent their team at tournies to not only win but to put on a good show and more importantly, to not damage the name of their team and sponsors. | ||
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Logan_ps
United Kingdom118 Posts
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:58 tripper688 wrote: We're talking about Naniwa the player, not Quantic the team. The players earn a salary to represent their team at tournies to not only win but to put on a good show and more importantly, to not damage the name of their team and sponsors. Yes. That was my original point. Sports teams earn their money by providing entertainment to a ticket buying audience. They employ players to provide that entertainment. The players don't receive any prize money and thus they have no direct incentive to effect the results of the game. Starcraft 2 players also receive salaries from teams/sponsors, essentially to be entertaining. But that salary is separate from their tournament income which is only affected by results. | ||
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hejakev
Sweden518 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:21 TheStonerer wrote: Just because it's EGalex doesn't mean you have to demean his post. On that topic, personally I agree with those that say they liked this move because at least he was honest about it. Being taken for an idiot thinking he was giving it his best is not something I like either. People these days expect everything to be given to them and always want everything to be politically correct, or at least seeming like it was "proper". And then before all this drama, I simply did not give a fuck. He was broken after the close losses, didn't feel like playing the game, probe rushed, ended it quickly, some people were angry, I thought it was funny and I didn't really see the difference between this and Idra getting angry at the game and leaving (there is, but one just stays in the game longer). Anyway, in my opinion, much ado about nothing, and people expect so much from everything. As a Huk fan (see my profile), I love EG and I'm fine with EGalex. All I was saying is that he shouldn't have written this. It's unnecessary as it doesn't bring anything new to the table and I think it's arrogant to title the post as if it does. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On December 16 2011 11:19 VoirDire wrote: Yes. That was my original point. Sports teams earn their money by providing entertainment to a ticket buying audience. They employ players to provide that entertainment. The players don't receive any prize money and thus they have no direct incentive to effect the results of the game. Starcraft 2 players also receive salaries from teams/sponsors, essentially to be entertaining. But that salary is separate from their tournament income which is only affected by results. And my point is that hes being paid to represent and to do it well. Which is basically what happens with pro players. | ||
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Wiklober
Sweden3 Posts
This post does not hold any judgement for any part of the situation, just highlighting my opinion to not having meaniless games. | ||
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MadeOfBalls
Zimbabwe19 Posts
Players are players. They are individual people. They _HAVE_ the right to screw up. ESPECIALLY when we talk about such a young entity as esports. You just cannot treat players of SC2, Q3, CS or whatever else as other sports athletes. You have to let some things go, not entirely of course, while working with them, setting a GOOD example to the others. What GOM did was unacceptable... ...because companies are companies. They are professionals. They DON'T HAVE the right to screw up, which they exactly did, by lying, inventing vague reasons, changing statements. I don't see why in the world they have to have the right to rule esports with an iron hand, and that's what GOM is trying to tell everyone with their action. | ||
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benefluence
United States158 Posts
On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote: For those of you who, after reading this, agree that NaNi's actions were unacceptable, but still blame GOM for utilizing a format which allows for inconsequential matches, I would ask you to consider holding players to higher standards of professionalism; and to also consider the fact that it's not GOM's responsibility to cater their format solely to suit players. GOM's job (as is the case with any professional sports league) is to provide a quality product to its viewers, while providing its competitors with fair, reasonable playing conditions, and the Blizzard Cup's format balanced these factors acceptably. Additionally, I would also point out the fact that, as illustrated above, every major professional sports league utilizes a format in which there are meaningless games. By your logic, All-Star games shouldn't even exist. "What Naniwa did was wrong, but you should blame GOM's format instead of him!" is a bad position, granted. It's also a strawman. It is possible to both hold Naniwa to a standard of professionalism and still believe the Blizzard Cup had a poor format. "What Naniwa did was wrong. He shouldn't have done it. he deserves to be punished for it. Nonetheless, if this tournament had a better format, this wouldn't have happened. I wish Blizzard Cup had a better format." The rest of the paragraph is, in essence, an almost derisive dismissal of the idea that the Blizzard Cup would benefit from looking into a different format that wouldn't facilitate the development of these sorts of problems. No, Naniwa's actions aren't GOM's fault, but saying "Stop complaining about the format, it doesn't need to be any better" just reeks of business-oriented bias. Irrespective of what Naniwa did, the quality of the format of the Blizzard Cup is a legitimate grievance. Not an enormously important one, but not a petty or ridiculous one either. Even in situations where players don't make stupid decisions, meaningless games will typically be of lower quality than games that matter because players are less motivated and less focused, and nothing is going to change that. Yes, the end result may be "acceptably balanced," as far as the producers are concerned, in terms of quality, but why shouldn't the tournament organizer take pride in their product and strive to delver the best content possible? Producing better games isn't catering only to the players, it's better for everybody. And telling viewers to stop offering constructive criticism on how to improve a product is just plain silly. Every major professional sports league utilizes a format in which there are meaningless games. This doesn't make meaningless games cease to be a negative thing, nor is it at all a reason for eSports to automatically copy that behavior. Admittedly, these formats aren't really bad. Indeed, the NASL makes a pretty solid product, in my opinion, using a form of the league-playoff structure. However, that's no reason not to try to do something that's better suited for Starcraft, or maybe just better period. In particular, most SCII competitions resolve over days instead of months, in large part because of travel costs. (Travel costs also generate one of the weaknesses of the NASL - namely, that most of its games must be played online). This compressed timeline exacerbates some of the problems that cause players to half-ass meaningless pool games - tiredness and frustration/disappointment at their (more recent) losses. While a minor consideration, it's another incentive to try to set up your tournament to provide the audience with games that are important to the people playing them. Look at MLG, for example, as an idea of how to make every pool game count. No, it's not a perfect format, but it's pretty good, and, perhaps most importantly, MLG is continually working to improve it, and deliver the best Starcraft tournament they can. To top it off, you end with a ludicrous and insulting parallel. Yes, by strawman logic, disliking meaningless pool games and the way they hurt tournaments means All-star games shouldn't exist. The rest of the world, on the other hand, can understand that there's a huge difference between a) A player participating in an all-star game that they've been expecting to play in, knowing exactly what purpose the game is meant to serve and what's at stake, and b) a player who's burnt out after three very disappointing losses in an actual tournament over a span of hours and can't bring himself to care about a game that doesn't affect anything. The way the players will approach and play the games, and what fans will expect of these events are nothing alike. Trying to create a unique sporting experience in a fun, less serious environment isn't the same thing as trying to improve the quality of the games being generated in a completely competitive environment, and you're not helping productive discussion of the issues involved here by pretending it is. /rant | ||
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macncheezeplz
United States93 Posts
"This is how I see it: 1. No monetary value existed at that point, that was completely acceptable. 2. This is the one of the biggest tournaments of the year with only a select few players invited. He shamed the competition of the sport and threw away a chance to show his skill when many other players would have loved to be in his position. Not acceptable. 3. The viewers deserved more. Some people actually payed to watch these games in high quality. Giving up at any point is unacceptable. 4. GOMTV deserved more. Bad games will result in less viewers. Less viewers means less money for the company. The only reason the prize pool exists is because of the quality of the show. The only reason that monetary value is there is because viewers enjoy watching players actually take games seriously. This is unacceptable. Strictly looking at the business side from Naniwa's perspective he acted completely acceptable. Yet... The money given at the end of the tournament doesn't just appear out of no where, it comes from high quality games. Yes I know, there was no way he could have made it through, but AT LEAST give us a show of something. Try a wonky strategy. Give a little effort. Give back to the community that provides you to make a living off of playing a video game." | ||
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Batssa
United States154 Posts
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TheBengalTigger
United States8 Posts
The following paragraphs will detail this argument. First, it's very difficult to demand that someone play hard and win when he isn't motivated to do so. What minimum threshold of effort would GomTV and the viewing public have found acceptable? A 4-gate? What if he cut Probes at 18? 17? 16? 15? At what point is GomTV willing to say "We aren't OK with this performance" and punish him? Is it OK if Naniwa gives 80% effort? 60%? 40%? It's difficult to even measure his effort, let alone pick an acceptable level. (And far more upsetting than watching a game in which Naniwa wasn't trying his hardest would be to watch a game in which I know Naniwa, broken and deflated, is still trying only because he knows if he doesn't try hard enough GomTV will punish him. That's almost sinister.) I understand why regular season games (in professional sports) are played after a team is eliminated from contention, but I would never personally watch a game between two teams with nothing at stake. I don't think I'd be getting a quality product, and I don't see why the two teams / players / etc. should have to do it if they don't want to. (What's worse is that teams are often incentivized to lose in professional sports, due to gaining better draft picks.) Nor would I watch an All-Star game. It's a farce, and shows the fans nothing of any substance. All-Star games exist to make money for the sports organization, not for the fans to enjoy something worthwhile. People may disagree on whether it's enjoyable to watch an All-Star game, but the fact remains that an All-Star game is meant as an exhibition. No one tries hard in the slightest, and apparently that's A-OK. Blizzard Cup is not an exhibition. If you're eliminated, why should you have to keep playing? Likewise, sometimes I watch monobattles or Funday Monday, but I go into that knowing perfectly well that it's not a professional game. It's when games that shouldn't count as professional games masquerade as professional ones that my sensibilities are bothered. For argument's sake, let's say that Naniwa (who gave 0% effort) could have given, in his shattered mental state, at best 70% of his ordinary effort. And let's say that Nestea was capable of giving 90%. People will see that Naniwa isn't playing his best, but they will say "Oh maybe Naniwa isn't that good anymore" rather than "Naniwa must be bothered by today's events." They will judge the quality of his game vs. Nestea as if he were playing his best. Not everyone will, but some people will. And that isn't fair. This isn't some fun sc2 show match. A loss would be humiliating for Naniwa, and feeling like he hadn't been able to give it his best...that would drive any self-respecting player to insanity. Much better to say "I don't feel like I can offer a good game right now" and just concede the match. Rushing all your probes...I don't know if that's the best way to do it, but I don't think "not walking into the booth at all" was an option. Additionally, GSL's punishment and subsequent backtracking / hedging / "the rules were different before this happened; we didn't change the rules" (this is not true, according to MLG's official statement) is very sketchy. The point here is that many people are criticizing Naniwa for letting down his fans and for letting down paying GomTV customers. I'm a paying GomTV customer, and I don't feel let down. It's unfortunate that Naniwa doesn't have the mental toughness to offer a great game after what happened, and maybe that means he isn't as "professional" a gamer as some others, but I don't really buy that argument. He was justifiably crushed and drained. I know I don't speak for everyone, but I think watching a longer, equally meaningless game where I know he isn't trying would be pointless. Watching a meaningless game where I know he IS trying but only because GomTV is making him is borderline outrageous. | ||
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
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Casablancas
Denmark145 Posts
On December 16 2011 11:19 VoirDire wrote: Yes. That was my original point. Sports teams earn their money by providing entertainment to a ticket buying audience. They employ players to provide that entertainment. The players don't receive any prize money and thus they have no direct incentive to effect the results of the game. Starcraft 2 players also receive salaries from teams/sponsors, essentially to be entertaining. But that salary is separate from their tournament income which is only affected by results. But... "ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?" I mean, no one is talking bad about Quantic, their rep is not hurting. Regarding Nani's rep, I doubt less people will tune in next time he plays, on the contrary I suspect more will do so. Quantic is getting a lot of publicity and I dont see anyone being negative towards them. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On December 16 2011 10:47 VoirDire wrote: Here is why all analogies with professional sports are bad: Sports teams make money directly from ticket sales so they have direct incentive to play their games. The prize money for winning the regular season is either miniscule or non-existent, so essentially they are rewarded based of entertainment rather than results. Sc2 players make money based on how well they perform in a tournament, i.e. prize money. If there is no prize money to be won, they have no direct incentive to play the game. It can even be detrimental to their earnings if they play, as it may reveal their play-style or their strategies for upcoming tournaments. Here's several reasons why your argument doesn't apply: In professional sports, players also make money based on how well they perform in tournaments. (It doesn't matter whether it's prize money or a bonus paid out by the team.) Moreover, Naniwa does also make money from factors other than his performance, most importantly compensation received from Quantic. (Note: Nestea had prepared specifically for that game, yet nobody claims he is not a serious progamer.) Naniwa had (he says) prepared strategies specifically for that game. Revealing play-style or strategies was not a factor here, and Naniwa never claimed it was. Finally, all the prize money they make depends on tournament organizers having a financial incentive to put up that prize money. Indirectly, every SC2 progamer lives off the fact that people watch Starcraft 2; ticket sales add to the money that tournament organizers can work with in addition to money received from sponsors. | ||
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On December 15 2011 18:25 Adebisi wrote: I don't want to drag this topic off on a tangent so I'll try to keep this short. This is the type of things where some people will think one way, and others will think another. To me the match doesn't effect the progression of the tournament, so no longer matters, for other people, any chance to watch Nestea vs Naniwa is important even if nothing but "honour" is on the line, so it does matter. Its just a situation the ideal tournament format will avoid, you want the players to be trying their best, not half assing it, like I said in my post, if this format is used again, the exact same situation will re-occur sooner or later, it is inevitable, the player won't do something as blatant as what Naniwa did, but it will be the same. Doesn't matter no matter how you slice it. Might as well call it a friendly skrim. | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On December 16 2011 12:41 TheBengalTigger wrote: TL;DR - What Naniwa did was not only acceptable, it was the only proper thing to do. It would have been far worse for him to play that game out. I understand why regular season games (in professional sports) are played after a team is eliminated from contention, but I would never personally watch a game between two teams with nothing at stake. I don't think I'd be getting a quality product, and I don't see why the two teams / players / etc. should have to do it if they don't want to. (What's worse is that teams are often incentivized to lose in professional sports, due to gaining better draft picks.) Nor would I watch an All-Star game. It's a farce, and shows the fans nothing of any substance. Clearly you are not the viewer GOM was trying to get for the Nestea vs Naniwa matchup then. But you can't deny that many such viewers exist, just like you can't deny that many people do watch All Star games and other games you find no interest in. For argument's sake, let's say that Naniwa (who gave 0% effort) could have given, in his shattered mental state, at best 70% of his ordinary effort. And let's say that Nestea was capable of giving 90%. People will see that Naniwa isn't playing his best, but they will say "Oh maybe Naniwa isn't that good anymore" rather than "Naniwa must be bothered by today's events." They will judge the quality of his game vs. Nestea as if he were playing his best. Not everyone will, but some people will. And that isn't fair. This isn't some fun sc2 show match. A loss would be humiliating for Naniwa, and feeling like he hadn't been able to give it his best...that would drive any self-respecting player to insanity. Much better to say "I don't feel like I can offer a good game right now" and just concede the match. Rushing all your probes...I don't know if that's the best way to do it, but I don't think "not walking into the booth at all" was an option. There is no meaningful way of measuring effort on a linear scale to do justice to a situation like this. Keep in mind that Nestea was also 0-3, and yet he gave an effort. Your entire argument can be turned around: According to your logic, Nestea is bad for esports because he did not do the proper thing and throw the game; in fact, he even prepared specifically for this game despite being behind 0-3 and having no shot at the tournament title. Either you don't believe that Nestea did something far worse than Naniwa or you're being hypocritical, as far as I can tell. Naniwa and Nestea both can give an effort. Nobody in their right mind will pretend that that match would have been as important as it would be if they face each other in the finals, but unlike you, many people can still appreciate and enjoy the resulting game. Also, you claim that feeling that you haven't given your best would drive any self-respecting player to insanity, but that's ridiculous: Other starcraft players have played games that don't directly decide their tournament standing many times before without losing their sanity. I'm a paying GomTV customer, and I don't feel let down. That's great, but clearly many customers feel otherwise, or there would have never been any issue at all! If you don't feel let down, that doesn't mean everyone who did feel let down is unreasonable. Professional sports has been around long enough to cut down on games you find "meaningless", the fact that they still exist in so many sports/tournaments shows that people do value those games. Watching a meaningless game where I know he IS trying but only because GomTV is making him is borderline outrageous. Nonsense. You know the situation ahead of time, you can always choose not to watch if it doesn't interest you. He knew he was expected to play four games at the very least in exchange for the compensation he received. This is his job. He does many things "only because his team is making him", like wearing jerseys, acting in ways acceptable to his team (and their sponsors), and so on. He was not forced to participate in the tournament, he knew the tournament structure ahead of time, he was not cheated out of his prize money. Apparently he didn't know that he was expected to try more seriously, or maybe he knew and just wasn't able to decide more wisely -- there is nothing outrageous about any of that. | ||
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RogerRus
Norway87 Posts
But this is partly about the "2)" part you wrote: I fail to see how this incident should keep Nani out of GSL, when someone like Idra gets in... Idra has on several occasions not played matches at all in big tournaments, which in my opinion is at least as bad as what Nani did. Gom did right to punish Nani, but they fail hard at having consistency among their actions, and having good explanations for what they do. If they want "professionals" in GSL, Nani and Idra are both poor choices. | ||
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PR_Iest
Australia5 Posts
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I completely agree maybe if the butthurt fanboys take their time and read ths they change their opinion on the whole matter. 
