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On December 16 2011 15:51 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:20 Kahuna. wrote:On December 16 2011 15:09 StarStruck wrote:You are missing the point. GM's and coaches do not question other player's work ethic. It isn't their job to. Thus the Lebron move has no relevancy because they weren't questioning Lebron's work ethic. Pat Quinn and numerous other coaches have been fined heftily by the leagues for doing such demeanor's. It can carry a 5 to 6 digit price tag. Hell, even calling another player's hit dirty can hit you hard: http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=501664The reason why the anecdote works is because all 9 matches count towards one thing. Which two players move onto the next round. The words 'work ethic' didn't show up in Alex's blog post... He was commenting on Naniwa's decision to probe-rush. He hasn't stated that he doesn't think Naniwa practices hard. So the 82 games that each hockey team plays in a season leads to one thing: which 16 teams will make it into the playoffs. So if during a couple of the games, a few teams decide to stay home and watch Jerry Springer rather than show up to their games, should we not care since we have to take the whole picture of the ENTIRE season into consideration and seeing as most of the season was great, then who cares about those couple of games? Again, bad anecdote. You have to read between the lines of what he said. I made no mention of practice. Work ethic goes way beyond practice. You can try to spin doctor it all you want. Here's where your argument falls apart. All of the matches happened on the same day. There is no rest period. No time for preparation. It's a slug fest when it happens back-to-back. Each competitor fights one round against another opponent. There are four rounds. It's how the event is packaged. You buy your ticket to watch in the studio and it is packaged as one event. Almost sounds like a UFC fight card, no? With that said, I have a question for you: would you honestly go up to the ticket booth and ask for your money back when eight bouts were really entertaining and close, but Mark Hominick got KOed in the first nine seconds by the Korean Zombie? That's very different from what happened, but I think it resonates with the idea that shit happens to great athletes all the time. Lots of people were hyped for that fight, but it was a wash.
I haven't read the rest of your posts so Ill just respond to the bold part. Hominick being KOed by Chan a good thing. Thats what many fans pay to see, a highlight reel knockout. That's part of the reason why they pay to watch the UFC (especially fans that are new to the sport) and I would argue that a rare highlight reel knock out like that lives up to the hype.
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Some arguments were a little bit far-fetched - particularly those made with the American sports are these are both team games and the league placement have an influence on the business. Thank you for providing your hindsight, you are truly are stable pillar in the community.
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For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.
In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this.
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On December 16 2011 16:06 Kahuna. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 15:51 StarStruck wrote:
You have to read between the lines of what he said.
I made no mention of practice. Work ethic goes way beyond practice.
You can try to spin doctor it all you want. Here's where your argument falls apart. All of the matches happened on the same day. There is no rest period. No time for preparation. It's a slug fest when it happens back-to-back.
Each competitor fights one round against another opponent. There are four rounds. It's how the event is packaged. You buy your ticket to watch in the studio and it is packaged as one event.
Almost sounds like a UFC fight card, no?
With that said, I have a question for you: would you honestly go up to the ticket booth and ask for your money back when eight bouts were really entertaining and close, but Mark Hominick got KOed in the first nine seconds by the Korean Zombie?
That's very different from what happened, but I think it resonates with the idea that shit happens to great athletes all the time. Lots of people were hyped for that fight, but it was a wash.
Work ethic may go way beyond practice... but it certainly isn't what Alex is comment on. For lack of a better source Wikipedia defines it as: "a set of values based on hard work and diligence". Alex isn't commenting on those types of values... rather he is discussing the professionality with which one carries oneself. Therefore Alex is not behaving unprofessionally or hypocritically as you've suggested. And no it's not a one day event... The event isn't even over yet, there's still a day left. Justifying your anecdote with this package-deal, 'whole rather than pieces' concept makes no sense for the various reasons I have outlined in posts above. And your comparisons are so far-fetched that there's no point to arguing with you. A more reasonable comparison would be the following: Let's assume there was a fight scheduled between Pacquiao and Mayweather... and upon the ringing of the bell to sound off the beginning of the the fight Mayweather walks up to Pacquiao in a non-fighting stance and holds his face out to him for the punching of a lifetime... then if we can't both agree that this would be stupid and unprofessional for Mayweather to do... then we should just agree to disagree. But comparing four SC2 games to a single hockey game is a horrible anecdote, except perhaps in your mind and a few others. And accusing Alex of lack of professionalism is even more far-fetched... either that or one of us (in my opinion, you) doesn't know what 'work ethic' is.
Haven't profs told their students not to cite wiki as a source for their arguments yet? Give me a break.
Once again, a person doesn't have to flat-out say it. Translate things into your own words. I just gave you a good example of a coach calling out another player and getting fined for it. Did he directly comment on Iggy's work ethic? No, he called him a dirty player and explained how the game used to be played. In layman's terms, Iggy's very lucky that the game isn't still played that way or else he would have got what's coming to him.
Hence the fine. You worry about your own team first and foremost.
Unfortunately Alex comments were very unprofessional and he calls out Johan for being very unprofessional with his snide remarks on how he thinks the game should be played. Unsportsmanlike and hypocritical. He didn't stop there either, but I've already made my point. It's identical to Pat Quinn's rant.
Besides that, you still have a hard time understanding the notion of a day pass. It's exactly that a day pass. Considering SC2 events sell day passes. I don't know how you can still be missing the point. Apparently abstract thoughts don't resonate with you so it's a lost cause. Fair enough.
Last attempt to show you where I'm going with this:
I ask you to consider the ups and downs and what goes on inside a player's head within such a short period of time.
No rest period. 15 minutes between intermissions isn't necessarily enough time to collect yourself.
You have to be able to look at the structure in another way in order to get it.
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On December 16 2011 16:23 Angelbelow wrote:
For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.
In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this.
No organization exists to fine such outlandish comments. Go ahead. Doesn't mean it's the professional thing to do. If you want others to treat you as professionals then conduct yourselves as such.
Keep it behind closed doors. Deal with your own players and don't release everything to the damn Media.
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The biggest revelation in this whole story, to me, is the amount of people who like watching players fake a game.
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On December 16 2011 16:34 StarStruck wrote:
Haven't profs told their students not to use cite wiki as a source for their arguments yet? Give me a break.
Once again, a person doesn't have to flat-out say it. Translate things into your own words. I just gave you a good example of a coach calling out another player and getting fined for it. Did he directly comment on Iggy's work ethic? No, he called him a dirty player and explained how the game used to be played. In layman's terms, Iggy's very lucky that the game isn't still played that way or else he would have got what's coming to him.
Hence the fine. You worry about your own team first and foremost.
Unfortunately Alex comments were very unprofessional and he calls out Johan for being very unprofessional with his snide remarks on how he thinks the game should be played. Unsportsmanlike and hypocritical. He didn't stop there either, but I've already made my point. It's identical to Pat Quinn's rant.
Besides that, you still have a hard time understanding the notion of a day pass. It's exactly that a day pass. Considering SC2 events sell day passes. I don't know how you can still be missing the point. Apparently abstracts don't resonate it with you. Fair enough. The way the games played out on that day is very much like the anecdote I used when you consider the ups and downs and what goes on inside a player's head.
So basically, your argument that Alex is being unprofessional is based on the ambiguously defined term "work ethic" for which I proposed a simple definition with which you weren't happy, but failed to come up with your own. Until you define it, and expand upon it, the argument that Alex is being unprofessional holds not little, but absolutely NO, merit.
Secondly, your comparison of four SC2 games to a single hockey game is based on a confusing anecdote that makes sense only to you and maybe a few others and therefore is an irrelevant comparison. Why should anyone heed your argument when it's based on far-fetched and unjustified viewpoints and analogies? I guess last night's SOTG where several pros discussed Naniwa's behaviour was an unprofessional discussion too, right? I guess the fact that Nazgul made a public statement regarding Naniwa's actions are also unprofessional, right? How about you give me a break, instead of the other way around? Didn't your professors teach you that forming arguments on ambigious terms and irrelevant analogies are poor debating tactics?
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On December 16 2011 16:43 Kahuna. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 16:34 StarStruck wrote:
Haven't profs told their students not to use cite wiki as a source for their arguments yet? Give me a break.
Once again, a person doesn't have to flat-out say it. Translate things into your own words. I just gave you a good example of a coach calling out another player and getting fined for it. Did he directly comment on Iggy's work ethic? No, he called him a dirty player and explained how the game used to be played. In layman's terms, Iggy's very lucky that the game isn't still played that way or else he would have got what's coming to him.
Hence the fine. You worry about your own team first and foremost.
Unfortunately Alex comments were very unprofessional and he calls out Johan for being very unprofessional with his snide remarks on how he thinks the game should be played. Unsportsmanlike and hypocritical. He didn't stop there either, but I've already made my point. It's identical to Pat Quinn's rant.
Besides that, you still have a hard time understanding the notion of a day pass. It's exactly that a day pass. Considering SC2 events sell day passes. I don't know how you can still be missing the point. Apparently abstracts don't resonate it with you. Fair enough. The way the games played out on that day is very much like the anecdote I used when you consider the ups and downs and what goes on inside a player's head.
So basically, your argument that Alex is being unprofessional is based on the ambiguously defined term "work ethic" for which I proposed a simple definition with which you weren't happy, but failed to come up with your own. Until you define it, and expand upon it, the argument that Alex is being unprofessional holds not little, but absolutely NO, merit. Secondly, your comparison of four SC2 games to a single hockey game is based on a confusing anecdote that makes sense only to you and maybe a few others and therefore is an irrelevant comparison. Why should anyone heed your argument when it's based on far-fetched and unjustified viewpoints and analogies? I guess last night's SOTG where several pros discussed Naniwa's behaviour was an unprofessional discussion too, right? I guess the fact that Nazgul made a public statement regarding Naniwa's actions are also unprofessional, right? How about you give me a break, instead of the other way around? Didn't your professors teach you that forming arguments on ambigious terms and irrelevant analogies are poor debating tactics?
It goes beyond work ethic. You are still ignoring everything I presented to you. It isn't my fault if you cannot wrap your head around it.
We're done here.
Read the bold. I made it easier for you.
Alex isn't the only one guilty of it. That's why SC2 isn't professional. e-sports has been around for a very long time and professionalism was never there. Hell, I still have beef with some of the shit KeSPA has done in the past with their regulations and policy.
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On December 16 2011 03:13 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
That's not an opinion, it's an incorrect assumption. He was invited to play 4 games. I understand the emotions Naniwa went through and as such I think I can understand yours, but you can't make up your own reasons of why someone is invited in order to justify your opinion.
If we take what GOM is saying to be true then Naniwa wasn't invited to play any games. He earned the right to play in the tournament.
In the tournament he tried his best to advance, when that no longer was an option he said "fuck it" and threw away the final game. If someone has a problem with that, it should be his team -- they're the ones losing out on an chance to but their sponsors front and center -- but that's between the player and the team.
Naniwas obligation to the tournament ended when he no longer had a chance to advance.
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On December 16 2011 16:47 StarStruck wrote:
It goes beyond work ethic. You are still ignoring everything I presented to you. It isn't my fault if you cannot wrap your head around it.
We're done here.
That's because you've presented - for the most part - meaningless banter. And yes, done indeed.
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On December 16 2011 16:52 Kahuna. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 16:47 StarStruck wrote:
It goes beyond work ethic. You are still ignoring everything I presented to you. It isn't my fault if you cannot wrap your head around it.
We're done here. That's because you've presented - for the most part - meaningless banter. And yes, done indeed.
Meaningless? If you cannot draw the parallels between Pat Quinn's rant and Alex's. I cannot help you.
I will re-post it in my own words:
I just gave you a good example of a coach calling out another player and getting fined for it. Did he directly comment on Iggy's work ethic? No, he called him a dirty player and explained how the game used to be played. In layman's terms, Iggy's very lucky that the game isn't still played that way or else he would have got what's coming to him. All coming from Mr. Quinn's mouth.
Alex commented on the way he thought the game should be played. He flat out calls Johan unprofessional and childish amongst other things.
That in itself is very unprofessional and hypocritical. THIS IS IDENTICAL TO PAT QUINN'S RANT.
I recommend you actually read the article and if you want more examples it isn't hard to locate the fines different leagues have issued to coaches and general managers alike for making snide comments.
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Yet again, we're being told how to think by this man. I agree with many of his general points about professionalism, but let's be honest about one thing. People are milking the crap out of this incident for the humor and other enjoyable publicity. Just see the Blizzard Cup Semifinals preview with the Naniwa artwork. I watched the VODs of the game already knowing what happened, and to my surprise, given the outrage, Moletrap and Khaldor were laughing it up. And they seemed genuinely amused, not just playing it that way because they were on TV.
It's really outrageous that Alex Garfield is attempting to dictate thought/behavior--but not surprising. You learn from positive examples set by others. The Idra example came off as "not even Idra's this bad." Idra's smart enough to generally avoid crossing the line because of Idra's experience doing stupid stuff. Otherwise, if people won't learn by examples, they'll learn by their own mistakes, but probably not because AG says what to think.
Furthermore, you left out of your analogy the fans that leave games when their team is getting blown out, or the many fans who discuss the positive aspects of throwing the rest of the season to improve their team's draft picks. It's utterly ridiculous to imply that fans of NFL/MLB/etc. all feel the same way about this issue of professionalism. I seriously doubt even the players all feel this way. I'm pretty sure we've had some recent examples of what NBA players and owners really care about. Hint: not the game.
I realize that examples of how professional sports isn't perfect don't exactly prove him wrong, and I'm all for the professionalism in esports, just not for comments that we all should feel a certain way, and embarrassingly, the OP pulled another "I don't want to single him out, but I'm going to do it anyway" on Naniwa. For the record, I'm not a big Naniwa fan, but it almost feels as if AG is asking the community to universally condemn Naniwa. According to his own stats, it's already at 65-70%. Does Naniwa really deserve all that hate in addition to the severe punishment he already received? Is this appropriate for a supposed "community pillar?"
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On December 16 2011 16:57 StarStruck wrote:
Alex commented on the way he thought the game should be played. He flat out calls Johan unprofessional and childish amongst other things.
That in itself is very unprofessional and hypocritical. THIS IS IDENTICAL TO PAT QUINN'S RANT.
I recommend you actually read the article and if you want more examples it isn't hard to locate the fines different leagues have issued to coaches and general managers alike for making snide comments.
Alright genius, I thought we were done? But if not, Alex is NOT commenting on the way Johan played the game... Alex is commenting on the way Johan conducted himself during a game which - for all practical purposes - he DID NOT PLAY, but unprofessionally forfeited. You are not particularly good at providing analogies and drawing parallels and even worse at analyzing a person's argument. Alex is not saying that "the way Johan plays isn't right"... he's commenting on Johan's sportsmanship and professionality; there a very big different between the two... do you not see that?
You can keep posting until you're blue in the face though... I'm gonna go get some sleep.
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On December 16 2011 17:05 Kahuna. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 16:57 StarStruck wrote:
Alex commented on the way he thought the game should be played. He flat out calls Johan unprofessional and childish amongst other things.
That in itself is very unprofessional and hypocritical. THIS IS IDENTICAL TO PAT QUINN'S RANT.
I recommend you actually read the article and if you want more examples it isn't hard to locate the fines different leagues have issued to coaches and general managers alike for making snide comments. Alright genius, I thought we were done? But if not, Alex is not commenting on the way Johan played the game... Alex is commenting on the way Johan conducted himself during a game which - for all practical purposes - he DID NOT PLAY, but unprofessionally forfeited. You are not particularly good at providing analogies and drawing parallels and even worse at analyzing a person's argument. Alex is not saying that "the way Johan plays isn't right"... he's commenting on Johan's sportsmanship and professionality; there a very big different between the two... do you not see that? You can keep posting until you're blue in the face though... I'm gonna go get some sleep.
Actually he did smartass.
You miss the part where he talks about IdrA and other players half-assing matches or not even bothering to show up? He is telling you how he thinks player's should conduct themselves in those situations!
God you are so slow.
Good riddance.
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On December 16 2011 16:36 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 16:23 Angelbelow wrote:
For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.
In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this. No organization exists to fine such outlandish comments. Go ahead. Doesn't mean it's the professional thing to do. If you want others to treat you as professionals then conduct yourselves as such. Keep it behind closed doors. Deal with your own players and don't release everything to the damn Media.
So I guess anyone involved with sc2 that has an opinion (especially involving constructive criticism) about someone else in the sc2 community should keep it to themselves or risk being called unprofessional by you?
You don't have to change your opinion, just know that they are a high volume of people that actually appreciate that Alex, Nazgul, Tyler, FXOBoSs, Doa (just to name a FEW) shared their opinions with the fans.
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On December 16 2011 17:10 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 16:36 StarStruck wrote:On December 16 2011 16:23 Angelbelow wrote:
For those who are questioning whether Alex has to right to comment on something like this, doesn't it say something when Nazgul supports this blog and is preparing one himself? Doesnt it say something when FXOBoSs already has his opinion blogged? And a number of other notable TL members have also spared their opinion including players like Tyler.. should they all shove it too? We have shows like SToG and LO3 but most of those guys are affiliated with teams and organizations yet they give their opinions weekly, often on controversy matters - and to are delight. They shouldn't stop either.
In line with the real sport comparisons, when David Stern, the commissioner of the NBA blocked a blockbuster trade in recent days did the coaches, players, general managers (especially the ones directly involved) exploded with criticism and disapproval. SC2 isn't at a level where we have professional journalists providing professional commentary on current events in sc2. Therefore, for now at least, I think were quite privileged to be able hear the opinions of players and management's opinion on situations like this. No organization exists to fine such outlandish comments. Go ahead. Doesn't mean it's the professional thing to do. If you want others to treat you as professionals then conduct yourselves as such. Keep it behind closed doors. Deal with your own players and don't release everything to the damn Media. So I guess anyone involved with sc2 that has an opinion (especially involving constructive criticism) about someone else in the sc2 community should keep it to themselves or risk being called unprofessional by you? You don't have to change your opinion, just know that they are a high volume of people that actually appreciate that Alex, Nazgul, Tyler, FXOBoSs, Doa (just to name a FEW) shared their opinions with the fans.
Upper management keeps things behind closed doors for a reason. They know how to conduct themselves with public relations. Every professional organization I know does this.
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I'm actually surprised that I haven't read more angry posts from disgruntled GOM customers.
I would have been upset if the game has turned into what happened at Blizzcon between NesTea and MVP. At least Nani didn't waste my time like they did (for whatever reason Blizzcon happened).
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On December 16 2011 17:08 StarStruck wrote:
Actually he did smartass.
You miss the part where he talks about IdrA and other players half-assing matches or not even bothering to show up? He is telling you how he thinks player's should conduct themselves in those situations!
God you are so slow.
Good riddance.
Your arguments are more meaningless than the game which Naniwa forfeited... and your inability to understand a person's argument is more childish than Naniwa's behaviour during the match. You should re-read Alex's post about IdrA and the other players... maybe it will reveal to you that you have misinterpreted what he is saying. If not, perhaps a course in reading comprehension will benefit you.
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On December 16 2011 17:13 Kahuna. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 17:08 StarStruck wrote:
Actually he did smartass.
You miss the part where he talks about IdrA and other players half-assing matches or not even bothering to show up? He is telling you how he thinks player's should conduct themselves in those situations!
God you are so slow.
Good riddance. Your arguments are more meaningless than the game which Naniwa forfeited... and your inability to understand a person's argument is more childish than Naniwa's behaviour during the match. You should re-read Alex's post about IdrA and the other players... maybe it will reveal to you that you have misinterpreted what he is saying. If not, perhaps a course in reading comprehension will benefit you.
Not my fault if you fail to grasp simple concepts. It's your problem; not mine. Maybe eventually you will come around, but I doubt it.
What Johan did is no better than any player half-assing a game and not putting forth their best foot or even bothering to show up. No one wants to see crap games that we can already see on every stream.
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On December 16 2011 16:49 loladin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 03:13 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
That's not an opinion, it's an incorrect assumption. He was invited to play 4 games. I understand the emotions Naniwa went through and as such I think I can understand yours, but you can't make up your own reasons of why someone is invited in order to justify your opinion. If we take what GOM is saying to be true then Naniwa wasn't invited to play any games. He earned the right to play in the tournament. In the tournament he tried his best to advance, when that no longer was an option he said "fuck it" and threw away the final game. If someone has a problem with that, it should be his team -- they're the ones losing out on an chance to but their sponsors front and center -- but that's between the player and the team. Naniwas obligation to the tournament ended when he no longer had a chance to advance.
I think Quantic got plenty of publicity/advertising through this whole ordeal 
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EPT
