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A Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 24

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Perfect Assassin
Profile Joined August 2009
Mexico56 Posts
December 15 2011 23:03 GMT
#461
I did read the whole article, just saying where is the play to win part? I don't see much difference between this and Boxer's famous (not infamous) worker rushes.
With fire justice is served
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
December 15 2011 23:18 GMT
#462
My thoughts exactly. Well said.

People (*cough* players) that blame GOM for putting Naniwa in that situation really have to grow up and realize that ultimately, a league's obligation is not to the players, but to its viewers.

Just look at a league like NASL. They have gone out of it's way to try to accommodate players -- they've been 'fair' to the point of hurting themselves' -- and they're struggling to put together a marketable product.



Marvid
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden34 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 23:26:55
December 15 2011 23:24 GMT
#463
Also the argument that Idra was invited in a different time is really weird. In my opinion it doesen't matter who got the specific spot for Code S... the interesting thing here is that they choose to demote Naniwa in the list of potential Code S invites because he behaved unprofessional in an situation.... now i find it hard to belive their idea of Idra to be that much more professional to not give his maximum in some games incase he goes into a loosing streak. Sorry, but i still feel this decision made by GOM was purely based on populism.
WArped
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom4845 Posts
December 15 2011 23:31 GMT
#464
Finally a post that is very insightful, knowledgeable and reasonable that outlines all the key problem areas in this situation. I agree 100% with you Alex. Thank you for the post.
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
December 15 2011 23:32 GMT
#465
I hope to see Alex Garfield make a statement regarding the gom/mlg issue regarding prizes given and then revoked, with organisations in parnership not communicating and pretty much playing with ppls lifes. If you care about your players you realise that this issue is not about naniwa, it could have been an EG player winning providence. I hope you will voice your opinion about players rights and integrity regarding the mlg/gom debacle.
Mementoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada2595 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 23:33:25
December 15 2011 23:32 GMT
#466
Didn't mention anything about the rules not being clear with no punishment even being mentioned... Formal warning woulda been fine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu96xMwFVXw
jimmydu444
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada250 Posts
December 15 2011 23:37 GMT
#467
On December 15 2011 18:25 chadissilent wrote:
NaNiwa enters game, forfeits. IdrA doesn't enter game, forfeits. How about his forfeits at MLG Providence against Haypro? I fail to see the difference.

User was temp banned for this post.



The mods are out of their minds. Disgusting.

User was temp banned for this post.

User was warned for this post
I believe in Sets, The Rationals, LQG and PoltPrime.WE
AimlessAmoeba
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada704 Posts
December 15 2011 23:38 GMT
#468
Am I the only one who actually found the probe rush to BE entertaining?
woobsauce
Profile Joined August 2011
United States491 Posts
December 15 2011 23:38 GMT
#469
Dear Alex, I agree with you 100%, and I was a bit shocked to see so much nonchalant support of Naniwa's actions when I raised the issue on GOM's forums. Some, it seems, do not have any desire to hold Esports players to the same degree of professionalism expected in other competitions.

For reference, the thread which I started and commented in numerous times (as well as covering a number of points Alex also comments on):

http://www.gomtv.net/forum/view.gom?topicid=211520&cid=0&kind=1
taLbuk
Profile Joined April 2010
Madagascar1879 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 23:39:49
December 15 2011 23:39 GMT
#470
On December 16 2011 08:37 jimmydu444 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 18:25 chadissilent wrote:
NaNiwa enters game, forfeits. IdrA doesn't enter game, forfeits. How about his forfeits at MLG Providence against Haypro? I fail to see the difference.

User was temp banned for this post.



The mods are out of their minds. Disgusting.


Out of their minds for stopping someone from spreading false information? don't think so.
tripper688
Profile Joined January 2011
United States569 Posts
December 15 2011 23:41 GMT
#471
On December 16 2011 06:09 Fjodorov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 05:50 Truthful wrote:
On December 16 2011 05:34 mvhtnb wrote:
The first thing that strikes me (thats an underlined me). Is that as a swede I do not think of the sports industry (not just E-sports) as an industry, nor as a way for the organizers, sponsors, tournament hosts or sports teams to make money.
As a swede, sports, gaming, competing and the like is for pure enjoyment, for the fun, for the competition itself and for the individuals interested in the individual stages of the whole scene (team organizers, organizers in general, coaches etc etc) and this does not include anyone who's interest in the scene is the money. Profit has nothing to do with the scene (this is ofc not totally true, but the general idea and guidelines in these sorts of problems is not as much sided towards the "industry" as it is towards the ones interested.

The most notable difference and the most influential reason for this different cultural base is possibly the way sports leagues are managed in the states. For those not common with this; the leagues, baseball for example, is really a corporate business, and the right to "have" a team in the league is gained by buying "stocks" in the business. Then this showbiz gets cash and distributes it among the "owners" in different ways.

In Sweden, this is as far away from the way it is organized as one can get, and also, I assume, for many Swedes (myself included) disgusting. I mean, I get sick in the stomach, for realz. To treat the sportsmen, the ones who really make up this, whos passion, skill, engagement, training, ..lifes. As a way to profit. It is so ... well... american, I guess.

Here the leagues are free for anyone as long as they can compete, league spots are solely gained based on performance and relegation is mainly only possible due to cheating or by crime.

Tournaments, competitions and the like, go by the same idea, the sportsmen are the ones in focus, the money-mongers is an ugly side effect.

I do not intend to really make up a new system for the tournament organization, I am mainly theorizing over why Naniwa did what he did.
I for one. Do not think he meant for anyone to get hurt (financially hurt in this case).

I only think he was a sportsman.

Where "some" wanted him to be a showpiece.

(Also, some would argue, the tournament should get punished by a lower viewer rate if their tournament has a problematic format for the players to do their best, not punish the players for not following the puppeteers strings to their liking.)


Hey, first off, i want to say good job on not showing bias in every single sentence of your post. it must've been hard.

second, that's exactly what he's being called out for. not being a "sportsman". its a matter of responsibility as a progamer. but not all responsibility is quantified and labeled under the category of that dirty disgusting (and American right?) financial incentive.


Wow you really got mad He is just trying to put out a possible explanation to naniwas obvious lack of knowledge of how esports is nothing more than a business and industry to some ppl.


LOL you don't get it at all do you? If someone cared about the game and competition, they would compete to the best of their ability regardless of monetary or fame incentives from the business side of esports. If you're basically doing it for the money and fame, then you're not much of a "sportsman."


On December 16 2011 08:03 Perfect Assassin wrote:
I did read the whole article, just saying where is the play to win part? I don't see much difference between this and Boxer's famous (not infamous) worker rushes.


Boxer does marine scv rushes to win games in sets. Naniwa A moves his probes towards Nestea's hatch and takes his hands off his keyboard to display his displeasure of having to play what is to him, a meaningless game. When has Boxer just boxed his SCVs and sent them at an opponents base then taken his hands off the keyboard as if to say, "To hell with this."

On December 16 2011 08:32 Mementoss wrote:
Didn't mention anything about the rules not being clear with no punishment even being mentioned... Formal warning woulda been fine


Maybe so but...their house their rules I guess?

"Excuse me I gotta do some vacuuming really fast *vrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm*" Day[9]
PlainShane
Profile Joined September 2011
United States62 Posts
December 15 2011 23:45 GMT
#472
Infallible logic.
"Sorry, Venkman. I'm terrified beyond the capacity for rational thought." -Dr. Egon Spengler
Esper
Profile Joined May 2010
United States87 Posts
December 15 2011 23:45 GMT
#473
Thank you Alex, everybody needs to pull their own weight and hold each other accountable. We are the checks and balances in this ecosystem. Higher standards hwaiting!
My life is a chip in your pile. Ante up!
Keone
Profile Joined April 2011
United States812 Posts
December 15 2011 23:52 GMT
#474
On December 16 2011 07:59 aviator116 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 07:56 FairForever wrote:
On December 16 2011 07:53 aviator116 wrote:
On December 16 2011 07:50 Keone wrote:
On December 16 2011 07:42 domane wrote:
On December 15 2011 06:33 GOMTV wrote:
NaNiWa has been considered as one of the players to receive a Code S seed for the 2012 GSL Season 1 as a part of the this new seeding system due to his recent impressive results. Other players under consideration were IdrA (MLG Orlando 4th, IEM Guangzhou) and Sen (Blizzcon Battle.net Invitational 3rd) among others. During this phase of consideration aforementioned incident happened, which led us to the decision to remove NaNiWa from the top of the list of considered players. This is not to be seen as a direct punishment resulting from the incident, the incident did however understandably have an influence on NaNiWa's position on the list of candidates.

On December 15 2011 17:51 EGalex wrote:
2) IdrA did not receive NaNiwa's Code S spot. IdrA was offered his Code S spot weeks ago, in a decision that was completely unrelated to NaNiwa.
Something doesn't fit here. Was IdrA guaranteed a spot or was he "under consideration"?

Hypothetically, if IdrA or Sen received NaNiwa's spot, there isn't any issue. It'd be nice to have a clear understanding of events.

I believe idra would have received his Code S spot regardless, but that Sen was the one who was "under consideration".

Sen was in because of his 3rd place at Blizzcon


No he wasn't.

Sen got the spot that they took from Naniwa, it seems even he was told that his spot materialized (in the past few days, as he's been told) right when Naniwa's was taken.

you misunderstood me. i meant that Sen was the next highest ranked foreigner in GSL points in large part because of his Blizzcon showing, so he was given the green light when the Naniwa incident occurred.

No I think you misunderstood both of us. We all know Sen was the next in line because of his showings regardless of what they were. What we were talking about was the possibility that Naniwa's spot was directly given to Sen, as compared to IdrA who had a spot regardless.
BW Forever. Flash is the Ultimate Bonjwa.
Squigly
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom629 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 23:59:50
December 15 2011 23:56 GMT
#475
On December 16 2011 08:37 jimmydu444 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 18:25 chadissilent wrote:
NaNiwa enters game, forfeits. IdrA doesn't enter game, forfeits. How about his forfeits at MLG Providence against Haypro? I fail to see the difference.

User was temp banned for this post.



The mods are out of their minds. Disgusting.


Indeed they are, however youll get banned for saying that. And ill get banned for saying this

OT: Put simply, he didnt break any rules. He shouldnt be punished. I dont care if what he did was ethically wrong or not, he did not technically do anything wrong. The fact that GOM had to find the rule which most closely relates something he did, in the vaguest possible sense is a travesty.

Im pretty sure any lawyer could take their rulebook and show how most players have broken it in some way or other.

All this talk of being 'sports-manly isnt even relevant in any way. Its about did he break a rule, yes or no.

Its down right offensive that they can effectively make up a rule to punish some guy they dont like.

GOM, the Soviet Russia of Esports

EDIT: Also you say that in other sports it would provoke outrage. Imagine in football your 2-0 down with 30 seconds to go. If your just kinda walking about not trying, noone will ask for their money back at all.

User was temp banned for this post.
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
December 15 2011 23:59 GMT
#476

[LOL you don't get it at all do you? If someone cared about the game and competition, they would compete to the best of their ability regardless of monetary or fame incentives from the business side of esports. If you're basically doing it for the money and fame, then you're not much of a "sportsman."


I think you are wrong. If you only cared about money and fame then you would think about the consequences and your future career more carefully in terms of money lost if you get punished and bad publicity etc. Naniwa, on the contrary, invests all that he is and all his emotions in his competetive games and when its over and he has lost ( 0 - 3) he is completely drained. You may think that fake, half hearted, sloppy games, where both players morale is rock bottom, are good for esports. I disagree

Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
December 16 2011 00:03 GMT
#477
On December 16 2011 08:56 Squigly wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2011 08:37 jimmydu444 wrote:
On December 15 2011 18:25 chadissilent wrote:
NaNiwa enters game, forfeits. IdrA doesn't enter game, forfeits. How about his forfeits at MLG Providence against Haypro? I fail to see the difference.

User was temp banned for this post.



The mods are out of their minds. Disgusting.


Indeed they are, however youll get banned for saying that. And ill get banned for saying this

OT: Put simply, he didnt break any rules. He shouldnt be punished. I dont care if what he did was ethically wrong or not, he did not technically do anything wrong. The fact that GOM had to find the rule which most closely relates something he did, in the vaguest possible sense is a travesty.

Im pretty sure any lawyer could take their rulebook and show how most players have broken it in some way or other.

All this talk of being 'sports-manly isnt even relevant in any way. Its about did he break a rule, yes or no.

Its down right offensive that they can effectively make up a rule to punish some guy they dont like.

GOM, the Soviet Russia of Esports

EDIT: Also you say that in other sports it would provoke outrage. Imagine in football your 2-0 down with 30 seconds to go. If your just kinda walking about not trying, noone will ask for their money back at all.

You'll get banned for martyring, the other guy got banned because what he said isn't true.
Moderator
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 00:36:42
December 16 2011 00:03 GMT
#478
OP has some good points (about Naniwa) and terrible points (about Idra).
Saying that Idra had his code S spot "for weeks" for instance. I know GOM gave you a very nice gift by giving Idra a code S spot without previous notice, so you feel you have to lie about it to make them look good, but the fact that Idra was in the up and downs and that Naniwa was in code S is well documented (including by Idra himself who said it in a show. In fact he said he first thought he was in code A, and was happily surprised to be placed in the und and have a chance to qualify directly for code S).

In this story, Naniwa thought he was in code S, Idra thought he was in the und, the whole world and esports covering sites also thought that, but it seems neither you nor GOM, who knew it was false "for weeks", decided to correct them. Which is pretty surprising, as they already started to sell 2012 tickets, and I guess Idra in code S would have been a pretty good announcement toi make for GOM or EG.

Please don't take that as "defending naniwa". What he did was wrong, but that doesn't excuse all the wrongs that followed, including some disinformation contained in the OP. It seems you wanted to basically say "Don't hate Idra for taking Naniwa's code S spot" (which you're right to, Idra has no blame obviously, unless EG pressured GOM to ban Naniwa and place their star player in code S, but it's a little conspiratorial, and not Idra's responsability).
But you should have told that directly and frankly (imo)

I nitpick a small part of your article, but as I said, I agree with most other things you wrote.

edit : weeks, not months, sorry for misquoting TT
Angelbelow
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3728 Posts
December 16 2011 00:16 GMT
#479
On December 16 2011 09:03 MrCon wrote:
OP has some good points (about Naniwa) and terrible points (about Idra).
Saying that Idra had his code S spot "for months" for instance. I know GOM gave you a very nice gift by giving Idra a code S spot without previous notice, so you feel you have to lie about it to make them look good, but the fact that Idra was in the up and downs and that Naniwa was in code S is well documented (including by Idra himself who said it in a show. In fact he said he first thought he was in code A, and was happily surprised to be placed in the und and have a chance to qualify directly for code S).

In this story, Naniwa thought he was in code S, Idra thought he was in the und, the whole world and esports covering sites also thought that, but it seems neither you nor GOM, who knew it was false "for months", decided to correct them. Which is pretty surprising, as they already started to sell 2012 tickets, and I guess Idra in code S would have been a pretty good announcement toi make for GOM or EG.

Please don't take that as "defending naniwa". What he did was wrong, but that doesn't excuse all the wrongs that followed, including some disinformation contained in the OP. It seems you wanted to basically say "Don't hate Idra for taking Naniwa's code S spot" (which you're right to, Idra has no blame obviously, unless EG pressured GOM to ban Naniwa and place their star player in code S, but it's a little conspiratorial, and not Idra's responsability).
But you should have told that directly and frankly (imo)

I nitpick a small part of your article, but as I said, I agree with most other things you wrote.


I think technically Sen replaced Naniwa's spot, not IdrA. If Idra had known for "months" (even though Alex says "weeks") then it should have been Naniwa and IdrA both getting the spot and Nani later dropping out and opening up a spot for someone else.

Your right that Gom shouldnt have waited to announce IdrAs code S spot, cause it would have done wonders for their ticket sales. Which means its no unreasonable to expect that this was a relatively recent progression.
You may delay, but time will not. Current Music obsession: Opeth
tripper688
Profile Joined January 2011
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 00:28:48
December 16 2011 00:28 GMT
#480
On December 16 2011 08:59 Fjodorov wrote:

Show nested quote +
[LOL you don't get it at all do you? If someone cared about the game and competition, they would compete to the best of their ability regardless of monetary or fame incentives from the business side of esports. If you're basically doing it for the money and fame, then you're not much of a "sportsman."


I think you are wrong. If you only cared about money and fame then you would think about the consequences and your future career more carefully in terms of money lost if you get punished and bad publicity etc. Naniwa, on the contrary, invests all that he is and all his emotions in his competetive games and when its over and he has lost ( 0 - 3) he is completely drained. You may think that fake, half hearted, sloppy games, where both players morale is rock bottom, are good for esports. I disagree



I disagree completely. As a competitor and a sportsman, he should be giving effort regardless of whether or not he gets good or bad publicity, or is rewarded financially. You may think that probe rushing when there's no more money or fame on the line is good for esports but I disagree.
"Excuse me I gotta do some vacuuming really fast *vrrrrrrmmmmmmmmm*" Day[9]
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