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A Different Perspective on The NaNiwa Controversy - Page 3

Blogs > EGalex
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Firesilver
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom1190 Posts
December 15 2011 09:51 GMT
#41
Great input on the entire situation, have to agree 110% with all of it, very well said.
Caster at IMBA.tv -- www.twitter.com/IMBAFiresilver -- www.youtube.com/FiresilverTV
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 09:53:23
December 15 2011 09:53 GMT
#42
Exactly what I felt. Very well written

Just wanted to add that the best way I visualized this situation was this.
This is how I want people to see esports:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
[image loading]
full of passion, dedication, and professionalism

This is not how I want people to see esports:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
full of "dont give a fuck" and unprofessionalism
sib-pelle
Profile Joined November 2008
Sweden162 Posts
December 15 2011 09:58 GMT
#43
I agree, but I also see the value in the drama. I haven't even matched the 3 games he actually played, rather just enjoyed the discussion around this forfeit game.
Jangbi fanboy & Gaming Community Scientist
Rugburnz
Profile Joined April 2010
United States4 Posts
December 15 2011 09:58 GMT
#44
Thanks, for sharing your perspective... I hadn't even thought of it that way..
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 10:00:17
December 15 2011 09:59 GMT
#45
I actually have a blog written out myself that I still wanted to edit before posting, but it touches on so many of the same issues Alex addressed. This has my complete support.
Administrator
CEPEHDREI
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany1521 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 10:02:06
December 15 2011 10:00 GMT
#46
awesome post.

its just unacceptable to throw games like naniwa did. u cant allow that to happen.
Gobe
Profile Joined November 2010
210 Posts
December 15 2011 10:02 GMT
#47
The problem is that if Naniwa had played out the match and entirely fail because he was unable to perform his best, that then directly reflects on him as a player. The format of the tournament put Naniwa in a bad position, and then punished him when he responded.
Ponchey
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden89 Posts
December 15 2011 10:04 GMT
#48
On December 15 2011 18:50 Enearde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 18:43 Ponchey wrote:
So going with the A, B and C definitions, you think it is OK to throw matches when someone has something to gain from doing so, but not when nothing is on the line?

Furthermore, according to your suggestion for Naniwa to 4gate to end the game quickly, it is also OK to throw the game, as long as you are faking effort?

I agree that Naniwa's choice was pretty bad, considering Korean esports culture and the recent drama surrounding him as a player. I do not agree, however, that it warrants a punishment. A warning from his coach, like the one you gave Idra, sure! But consider that Idra incident. Should that have warranted his invite to TSL3 to be revoked? Because that is of a (nearly) similar magnitude


He said nothing of the sort. He said that while throwing a match is something that could be seen as a strategy, trying to secure something (an advantageous place in a bracket or whatever), throwing a match when nothing is at stake is wrong because you'll gain nothing out of this move.

Is that not exactly what I proposed that he said?
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
December 15 2011 10:06 GMT
#49
Thank you for the well written article. It's rare that I'd read that much text on any forum, even TL, but it was very insightful and well written.

I would like to especially thank you for talking about the Idra v Nerchio forfeit, it had nagged me for a while, and I'm glad to see you have a clear position on it. Reassuring that I can wholeheartedly support EG.

To all those saying that it's the tournament that forced it, I'd like to point out the statistics Day9 cited about Idra: he loses most sets where he loses the first game - it's hard to win after a loss, but it's part of the game. Anyone who listened to Lo3 yesterday knows Naniwa is now the first to tell you that it would be right to still try to play one's heart out in that situation.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Huckleuro
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom294 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 10:08:24
December 15 2011 10:07 GMT
#50
OK. For a start- why would EG feel the need to put their oar into the water regarding this situation? We dont need further gossip or talk on an incredibly obvious subject.

EG's view is very fair and standard, and i agree 99%.


Though say we were to talk about professionalism... when EG's (and many, many other teams) top players regularly go on stream and repeatedly abuse their opposition, when they sit there and call almost every opponent a 'retard'... sure that must be seen as totally unprofessional and down right rude?

Throwing stones. Glass house. E-sports is young and it will change massively in the next few years. I believe people are overreacting to what nani did. It was wrong and disrespectful, but it was also the first time he has done something like this.
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 10:09:15
December 15 2011 10:08 GMT
#51
Very good post, but I'm still disgusted by gom's unprofessional handling of the situation, making things up and lying about things is not the way to go when you punish someone for being unprofessional
beep boop
AlternativeEgo
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden17309 Posts
December 15 2011 10:10 GMT
#52
On December 15 2011 18:46 McgKrypton wrote:
What i don't understand is that if Naniwa did a 4-gate (to end the match at 6-7min ingame lose or win) no-one would have complained.


True. Naniwa was caught in a lose/lose situation and I don't see why a half-assed attempt would be so much better than what he did. Sure he could have pulled off his Nestea-tailored-supergosu-strategy in a serious attempt to win, but doing that in a game that didn't matter at all is just stupid. Like..really stupid. I don't want any player to pay that prize just for our "entertainment". And c'mon, you have to admit that a probe rush at this level is pretty entertaining (in a hilarious way), at least more so than the more "suited" fake game as mentioned.
Mark Munoz looks like Gretorp
Liquid`Nazgul
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
22427 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 10:13:17
December 15 2011 10:10 GMT
#53
On December 15 2011 19:07 Huckleuro wrote:
OK. For a start- why would EG feel the need to put their oar into the water regarding this situation? We dont need further gossip or talk on an incredibly obvious subject.

EG's view is very fair and standard, and i agree 100%.


Though say we were to talk about professionalism... when EG's (and many, many other teams) top players regularly go on stream and repeatedly abuse their opposition, when they sit there and call almost every opponent a 'retard'... sure that must be seen as totally unprofessional and down right rude?

Throwing stones. Glass house. E-sports is young and it will change massively in the next few years. I believe people are overreacting to what nani did. It was wrong and disrespectful, but it was also the first time hes done it.

Nononono. Please don't do this. I've had people say this to me as well. However if you want teams to be silent (due to their relationship with Quantic), tournaments to be silent (due to their relationship with GOM), and players to be silent (due to their relationship with Naniwa) you are essentially saying all the big spokespeople in this scene cannot speak out against actions. This is incredibly detrimental to the scene. Important people in this industry do need to speak out when something serious happens. The fact that so many don't just to avoid the heat is actually a major issue in Esports.
Administrator
Angelbelow
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3728 Posts
December 15 2011 10:11 GMT
#54
On December 15 2011 18:59 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I actually have a blog written out myself that I still wanted to edit before posting, but it touches on so many of the same issues Alex addressed. This has my complete support.


Cool to hear, I'm sure it'll be great when it comes out but I want to say that Alex's blog post really articulates my thoughts (and what I was trying to express in the "LR") perfectly.

Also, thanks for writing these opinions, its always great to be able to read these kind of opinion pieces from some of the great E-sport minds who aren't players. (The FXOboss one is really good too.)
You may delay, but time will not. Current Music obsession: Opeth
Eineez
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden37 Posts
December 15 2011 10:13 GMT
#55
I agree with mostly everything you wrote, as did Naniwa if you actually watched him with djwheat and sirscoots last night. He admitted he was in the wrong and he apologized. So I don't really see the need for this blog post, but whatever..

Anyways, I still think the situation was poorly handled by GOMTV. There was no official statement until much later and no official translation of what was said yesterday by mr chae. The translation that was out, I'm still not sure whether or not it was accurate or not, but that certainly enraged people aswell. Most of the outrage from people like me who sided with naniwa on the matter, felt that a lot of players (including naniwa himself) has gotten away with much worse things in other tournaments, and were completely surprised and confused by the anger towards him after the probe rush and the harsh punishment he received.

We need consistency from all major tournaments in these matters, and clear and precise rules of what is acceptable behaviour and what is not.
snowbird
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Germany2044 Posts
December 15 2011 10:15 GMT
#56
Good post, thank you.
@riotsnowbird
The Void
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany428 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 10:21:33
December 15 2011 10:19 GMT
#57
On December 15 2011 18:25 Adebisi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 18:17 Skyreaper wrote:
On December 15 2011 18:08 Adebisi wrote:
I agree with what you say everywhere more or less (could be nitpicky on certain details and analogies maybe I guess) but I think the one point you miss is that games that do not matter for the progression of the tournament/league should not be broadcast. Ultimately if you want to advocate preserving the integrity of GOMtv's product, the tournament structure must create only games that actually matter (or just be ready to not play/broadcast irrelevent games, simply following the precedent they set in up/down matches) otherwise this situation will rise again, it may not be as blatant as a probe rush (and given this shit storm, I'm shirt it won't), but it will happen again.

Well NaNiwa vs Nestea MATTERS for pro-gamers and many fans. NaNiwa also mentioned later that the match against wasn't meaningless as he previously thought. GomTV is doing their job by broadcasting the game that matters.

I don't want to drag this topic off on a tangent so I'll try to keep this short. This is the type of things where some people will think one way, and others will think another. To me the match doesn't effect the progression of the tournament, so no longer matters, for other people, any chance to watch Nestea vs Naniwa is important even if nothing but "honour" is on the line, so it does matter. Its just a situation the ideal tournament format will avoid, you want the players to be trying their best, not half assing it, like I said in my post, if this format is used again, the exact same situation will re-occur sooner or later, it is inevitable, the player won't do something as blatant as what Naniwa did, but it will be the same.


pretty much this. actually officialy the game did NOT matter.

for me it doesn't matter. and i hate to see progamers play if i have the feeling they don't play real - so i don't want to see this games at all. Nobody can expect that a progamers does his best, if there is nothing on the line. It's psychological very unplausibly that someone actually is able to do his best in such a situation. Some eventually are able some will never be able - you can't blame them. It is just normal.

so if i can't be sure they are giving his best, i would rather not see this game.

and aside from that it even made this silly game more interesting cause it wasn't expected and i was thankful for a short game (because it didn't matter anyway ).

in terms of entertainment value it was the best thing that could have happened.
it is hard to be an atheist and deal with day9 (╯°□°)╯︵┻━┻ also i stole this too ♞...o_O..oh..and his buddies ♚♛♜♝♟http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295038 don't trust the suits...
Deimos0
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Poland277 Posts
December 15 2011 10:25 GMT
#58
Some of you seem to live in some delusional world of so called 'honesty' - doing whatever you think is right, without considering other people. I support Alex's statement and hope that Naniwa will act differently next time. And I hope GOM's decision will scare off other players from doing things like Naniwa. At home on ladder you can probe/scv/drone rush all day long, but during a televised match just show some sportsmanship and respect for sponsors and viewers. Whether the match matters or not.
protect me from what I want
Angelbelow
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3728 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 10:31:46
December 15 2011 10:29 GMT
#59
On December 15 2011 19:19 The Void wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 18:25 Adebisi wrote:
On December 15 2011 18:17 Skyreaper wrote:
On December 15 2011 18:08 Adebisi wrote:
I agree with what you say everywhere more or less (could be nitpicky on certain details and analogies maybe I guess) but I think the one point you miss is that games that do not matter for the progression of the tournament/league should not be broadcast. Ultimately if you want to advocate preserving the integrity of GOMtv's product, the tournament structure must create only games that actually matter (or just be ready to not play/broadcast irrelevent games, simply following the precedent they set in up/down matches) otherwise this situation will rise again, it may not be as blatant as a probe rush (and given this shit storm, I'm shirt it won't), but it will happen again.

Well NaNiwa vs Nestea MATTERS for pro-gamers and many fans. NaNiwa also mentioned later that the match against wasn't meaningless as he previously thought. GomTV is doing their job by broadcasting the game that matters.

I don't want to drag this topic off on a tangent so I'll try to keep this short. This is the type of things where some people will think one way, and others will think another. To me the match doesn't effect the progression of the tournament, so no longer matters, for other people, any chance to watch Nestea vs Naniwa is important even if nothing but "honour" is on the line, so it does matter. Its just a situation the ideal tournament format will avoid, you want the players to be trying their best, not half assing it, like I said in my post, if this format is used again, the exact same situation will re-occur sooner or later, it is inevitable, the player won't do something as blatant as what Naniwa did, but it will be the same.


pretty much this. actually officialy the game did NOT matter.

for me it doesn't matter. and i hate to see progamers play if i have the feeling they don't play real - so i don't want to see this games at all. Nobody can expect that a progamers does his best, if there is nothing on the line. It's psychological very unplausibly that someone actually is able to do his best in such a situation. Some eventually are able some will never be able - you can't blame them. It is just normal.

so if i can't be sure they are giving his best, i would rather not see this game.

and aside from that it even made this silly game more interesting cause it wasn't expected and i was thankful for a short game (because it didn't matter anyway ).

in terms of entertainment value it was the best thing that could have happened.


I disagree, the game does matter.

Naniwa agreed to the format and he agreed to compete with.. oh... just the top players of 2011 in SC2's most prestigious tournament organizer. Therefore, Naniwa has an obligation to the fans, to his team, and to the tournament organizers to play it out (after all they're all putting time and/or money to see him succeed.)

At the end of the day, the game does matter or it wouldn't have caused this community backlash. It wouldn't have led to his candidacy for Code S being revoked. The posters and fans that continue to defend Naniwa, know this, you're not doing him any favors. In fact Naniwa himself (along with other notable figures in the sc2 world) have agreed that this situation will only make him better if he learns from it.
You may delay, but time will not. Current Music obsession: Opeth
Tommylew
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Wales2717 Posts
December 15 2011 10:35 GMT
#60
yeh but the differnece is you dont go to watch a MLB game and watch only one player... hell if of all the football games ive watched my bets player has sucked many timesand I sure as hellwont getmymoney back for that one guy performing bad..

Atend of day the is plenty of times where teams plays hti once relgegated hell ive taken throwing in in football and been thelast guy on the line when the other team goes and scores... and had teammates walking back when they broke... happens all the time people give up... how amny times even man u and Arsenal have we seen head drops and big scores posted as generally they just dont care... it happens in every sport and in a situation like this you can expect nani or Nestea to actually try(no one knows how Nestea would of played that game)
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