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Normally I stay away from reading blogs but somehow I wound up here.
Look, Koreans are consistently at the top of starcraft and since the release of the sequel, not much has changed. Nobody is asking you to refer to yourself as a foreigner. It is neither derogatory or oppressive to be labeled as a foreigner to me. I am an American and by the by, the worst out of the major countries that compete in starcraft. But do I think that? No. Do I think I could survive on the KOR ladder? Probably not!
But is it because I am a foreigner? No. It is because I do not devote enough time to Starcraft 2 to compete with those that do. I am not digressing from my point, I'm emphasizing it. The Korean scene is currently dominate and like it or not, the Korean competitors tend to rise to the top. Especially in the (obvious) GSL. There are certain situations where foreigner would be an awful choice to describe someone, such as a NA server silver/gold tournament but if you're watching Tastosis and they use the term foreigner remember that they are in Korea and they and you alike, are foreigners.
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On June 15 2011 00:35 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term but for SC2 it really is silly to use the term. no its not. its very seriously not silly. the point is its accept terminology. it describes a group of people briefly to those knowledgeable of the terms meaning. does it offend you that you cant be a citizen or something? why hate the term? Just because some self-hating nerds started calling themselves foreigners back in 1999 when the term was actually more or less applicable, we should use it today? How does that make sense to you? I don't care if it's a tradition from the BW days, it's still silly and stupid and should not be used.
after watching mlg you really think korean dominance is in any doubt? koreans are still the best, and they are getting better faster. the term foreigner still applies.
the ops hockey example doesnt make any sense as neither canada or the US are stomping face to the degree of koreans at starcraft
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Calgary26003 Posts
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
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no.
User was warned for this post
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Stop trying to police language.
just like gay used to mean happy this term has another meaning and it is a well established term and people who have been part of the starcraft community won´t stop using it just because some people think it is stupid.
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On June 15 2011 00:37 turdburgler wrote:
after watching mlg you really think korean dominance is in any doubt? koreans are still the best, and they are getting better faster. the term foreigner still applies.
the ops hockey example doesnt make any sense as neither canada or the US are stomping face to the degree of koreans at starcraft
Ok, so every time a country exercises dominance and enthusiasm over a certain sport or activity we should start speaking of the players relative to said dominating country?
So every chess player outside of Russia is a foreigner.
So every ping pong player outside of China is a foreigner.
I'm simply saying that I don't feel the term makes sense in the changing context when compared to something like BW. It's a nit-pick, nothing more. If I were an average dude sitting down to watch some StarCraft and someone described IdrA at MLG as a 'foreigner', my reaction would be "oh snap, I thought he was American. I wonder where he's from..." That's all. Don't read too much into what I'm saying and start talking about certain words as 'offensive' or start arguing the relative levels of StarCraft dominance. I'm simply nit-picking the fact that the use of a term which made relative sense in BW makes less sense in SC2.
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Maybe you can call them 'international players'? It has less of a negative connotation than 'non-korean'. Either way, I don't think it really matters.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On June 15 2011 00:44 Clamev wrote:
Stop trying to police language.
just like gay used to mean happy this term has another meaning and it is a well established term and people who have been part of the starcraft community won´t stop using it just because some people think it is stupid.
I'd argue that he's not trying to police language he's just raising an issue he finds silly. And it's something I hadn't revisited until I read the OP. Now, after reading it and thinking about it, I find the term 'foreigner' inappropriate for SC2. I wasn't policed into change, I just had never thought about it.
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On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
There you go, I agree with this a lot more than just not using the word at all.
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TBH it will probably change anyways, the term is already in flux and since there are competing forms with more use/meaning behind them already, you'll probably start to see the term fall out of use at non-Korean events eventually regardless of what we do.
The fact is, the inventory of linguistic terms we use evolved out of the reality that was BW, and many have their origin in the BW scene, and so encode that reality. The fact that sc2 is so big outside of korea, and that so many people are engaged in discourse outside of korea puts pressure on the terms to adapt to the new reality.
'foreigner' in the use that we're talking encodes a reality that doesn't exactly exist anymore, its set of connotations make is unsuited to the current social reality, so it'll fade, happens all the time and it'll all happen without us doing anything about it regardless. =)
But if Chill starts not using 'foreigner' in that way, it'll hasten its demise-- he's got the advantage of being a really big one-to-many voice so his words generally count for more.
edit: woot, post #256.
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On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term
Yeah it is. How many televised starcraft leagues could you find outside of Korea in 1999??
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I don't think it has anything to do with who dominates who. Korea is where E sports got a real start and has shown true staying power. It is quite simply the home of modern E sports and there is nothing wrong with identifying anyone not from this home of as a foreigner because in that context its absolutely accurate. There is nothing derogatory; it only serves as an identifier.
On June 15 2011 00:50 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term Yeah it is. How many televised starcraft leagues could you find outside of Korea in 1999??
Check up on your BW history, there were foreigners playing BW in Korea long before Nony, Idra, and ret got there.
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On June 15 2011 00:46 Tarot wrote:
Maybe you can call them 'international players'? It has less of a negative connotation than 'non-korean'. Either way, I don't think it really matters.
You're right, it really doesn't matter - like I said, it's just a nit-pick. I don't care about negative connotations, I don't care about policing language or arguing semantics.
I simply care that things make sense in context.
As Chill reiterated, HuK is a foreigner in GSL and MMA is a foreigner in MLG. That makes sense to me (a BW elitist) but also makes sense in context to anyone else regardless of their grasp of the nuances of made-up StarCraft parlance.
I used terms like annoying and stupid in my OP and somehow people are taking my point to be about offensive and negative. Let's go ahead and stop that. That's a talk for another day and one I don't really have a say in.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51230 Posts
On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
this is an acceptable way of saying it.but to completely stop the usage of the term is something I disagree.
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It's just something that carried over from sc1, tradition. Why do people even care about it, ugh.
It's just a term that doesnt really mean anything in sc2, but people still use it because they used it in sc1. So many words are used like that. I cannot see why this even matters. At all. Unless you wanna just nitpick everything.
I think it should stay, it's one of the few things left behind from sc1, just a memory.
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Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:50 Hawk wrote:On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term Yeah it is. How many televised starcraft leagues could you find outside of Korea in 1999?? Check up on your BW history, there were foreigners playing BW in Korea long before Nony, Idra, and ret got there.
Seems you're missing the point.
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Ugh. Apparently, insulting people is okay when our favourite commentators do it. You can't justify it beyond 'well it hasn't been a problem before now. What changed?'. It's called tolerance, and it wears thin after a while.
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On June 15 2011 00:53 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. this is an acceptable way of saying it.but to completely stop the usage of the term is something I disagree.
For the record, I'm not advocating the removal of the word from SC related chatter. Unfortunately Can We Please Stop With the Term 'Foreigner' as a General Term for Non-Korean StarCraft Players in International Tournaments is kind of a long title.
Chill hit the nail on the head, perfectly distilling the point down to an internet-ready, easily digestible two lines.
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foreigner is part of our language, our culture, and you're not gonna take that away from me.
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On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct.
Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so.
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EPT
