|
Apologies in advance for the lack of meaningful content in this blog post, but honestly it doesn't take more than a few paragraphs to get this one across.
Referring to non-Korean SC2 players as 'foreigners' is fastly becoming my least favorite habit of SC2 commentators, writers, and posters - passing even the ubiquitous 'goes down'. It's a convention that has carried over from BW and, in my opinion, no longer makes sense in the context of SC2 and how popular it is throughout the world. Hearing any of the great announcers at MLG regard the 'top foreigners' when discussing North American players while broadcasting a tournament held in Ohio is ... annoying?
Being Canadian, I like hockey. Hockey is another sport played in several countries, many having their own leagues and players of all nationalities making up the rosters in these leagues. The NHL is obviously the largest and most talented league, and has its home in North America. But this doesn't mean that everything else in hockey has to be discussed as relative to North America. The SEL and the KHL aren't just painted as 'foreign hockey'. They are just Swedish and Russian hockey, respectively. When Alexander Radulov is ripping up the KHL, we don't start talking about him as a 'top foreign hockey player.' Foreign to what? That would be stupid.
If you want to talk about people outside of Korea, talk about non-Koreans. You know what a foreigner is, right? It's an outsider - specifically a person living in a country not his own. HuK is a foreigner when he takes part in Korean tournaments. Grrrr and Elky were foreigners when they took played BW in Korea. IdrA is not a 'top foreign zerg' when playing a Korean in America. He can be a 'top non-Korean zerg'. Hell, he can even be a 'top international zerg' when the discussion is in happening in Korea.
Anyways, this is just one of those things that bugs me, basically because it makes no sense. SC2 is a whole lot bigger than Korea.
  
|
but all the top players are in korea. anyone outside korea is at a disadvantage, hence on the outside, hence foreign. it's an important distinction
|
No its an accepted term.
You may start a movement to end it but there will be resistance.
Accept the established language.
Being a Canadian I like hockey too. Why do we all fit the stereo type so well ;p
|
Considering that the GSL, the current #1 league in terms of prestige and prize money, is situated in South Korea, isn't it safe to assume that Korea is still a focal point of StarCraft? Not the only one, to be sure, but a significant portion of the world's best hail from S.K. The term "foreigner" is not only a well-established one that seems to work (work being adequately defining top non-Korean players, who can be argued to not quite be at the collective skill caliber that fellows like MC and NesTea are at yet), and it's easy to say. If I have a choice between two terms that mean the same thing (more or less) in the same context, and one is easier to say than the other, I'll use that term. It's easier and less cumbersome to say "IdrA is a top foreigner Zerg" than it is to say "IdrA is a top non-Korean Zerg".
Why use "non-Korean" when "foreigner" means exactly the same thing? Why use "international" when the context there is exactly the same as with "foreigner"?
Stick with what works, in my opinion.
|
Korea is still the mecca, and until SC2 is truly internationalised, this wont be going away. I don't see why it's such a big deal.
|
On June 14 2011 23:18 ComaDose wrote:
No its an accepted term.
You may start a movement to end it but there will be resistance.
Accept the established language.
Being a Canadian I like hockey too. Why do we all fit the stereo type so well ;p
Let's start a counter-movement to the original movement. As we all know the best hockey players in the world are (to a great degree) from Canada. And the best development and junior leagues are also in Canada with an ever-increasing number of Europeans and Americans moving here in order to 'compete with the best' and increase their chances of turning pro. Because of this, and the similar context to the Korean example in SC2, we will now refer to all non-Canadian hockey players as foreigners.
Tim Thomas is a pretty good goaltender, for a foreigner. Evgeni Malkin is a top-foreign player.
Join the revolution!
|
"Non-Korean" is never going to catch on, sorry.
And by the way, "non-Korean" is just as negative a turn of phrase as "foreigner".
|
I understand where you're coming from, but non-Korean is just as negative as foreigner. "foreigner" is a term that has been used for so long that it really won't change. Hell, I bet many progamers are proud to be foreigners.
|
For casters it is probably a lot more polite to say the player's name, but it still makes sense to point out someone is 'the only foreigner left in the tournament' when everyone else in the tournament is Korean... So in other words, pretty much any competition the Koreans care about, aka any competition which is actually difficult to win (there being about a million in SC2, it's hard to tell if any are prestigious at all).
If people say 'wow over half this tournament is foreigners!' that's going to be when it starts sounding incredibly stupid and you can just turn off the cast.
|
On June 14 2011 23:18 ComaDose wrote:
No its an accepted term.
You may start a movement to end it but there will be resistance.
Accept the established language.
Being a Canadian I like hockey too. Why do we all fit the stereo type so well ;p
At one point "boy" or "nigger" was the accepted term for people of african-american descendt - just because something is established it doesn't make it right. Tbh, I think there are bigger battles out there to fight and I could care less about foreigner, but I can see where the OP is coming from.
|
I believe the f-word you are looking for in regards to non-North American hockey players is floaters. You clearly don't watch enough Grapes vids.
It is a bit odd though, considering how SC2 has a bit more of an international focus than the competitive BW scene. I guess since many of the first casters were old BW guys it kind of weaseled its way into the scene
|
I see where you are going with this, I agree with you. Coming from casual BW play to SC2 I was unfamiliar with all of these terms. This one did strike me as odd. However, I feel it is too embedded in the SC2 world to change.
The only hope is a lot of new players and spectators will adapt a new term. I honestly doubt it will happen.
|
I agree with OP, foreign and non-korean do not mean the same thing and even though korea may have the best players or biggest tournament that doesn't mean you are a foreigner if you are non-korean, although you can be if you are actually in korea.
|
I'll stop using the word once a non korean wins the gsl :p
Seriously though that would be amazing, gogo non koreans :D
|
As a foreigner myself i find it insulting you would try to eliminate an important part of my heritage.
|
On June 14 2011 23:23 stafu wrote:
Korea is still the mecca, and until SC2 is truly internationalised, this wont be going away.
Personally, I feel SC2 is extremely internationalized, what with tournaments, leagues, and professional teams in all sorts of countries.
I dunno - to me the use of the blanket terms 'Korean' and 'foreigner' to describe a group of international players is just so simplistic. It's us vs. them. It's Korean and everyone else. Of course the best players are Korean and the highest competition. But not the best leagues (one could argue). Not the best tournaments (again, open for argument). And for what it's worth, I could care less about how 'negative' a term might be - I'm more concerned with how it works in context. For the record, I don't think any of this is derogatory and I probably wouldn't care if it was.
It made more sense in BW as there was really no comparing the world of StarCraft in Korea with what existed in the outside world. But the same can't be said for SC2. It's an entirely different context. Maybe we can revert in 10 years when the Koreans are the only ones still playing professional SC2 ;-).
|
Don't let the word bring you down, take back the word!
SAY IT LOUD, I'M FOREIGN AND I'M PROUD!
|
It comes from the BW days when the distinction skill wise between koreans and non-koreans were so big that we refereed to the Korean BW scene and the foreigner BW scene. I personally got used to the term many years ago and I see no reason to change it.
|
I think I would've found this post far more amusing if the OP was american.
Its just a term; if you take it in a derogatory way thats your problem. If it was generally used in a negative way, yes it could be a problem, but it refers to all the people outside SK, where the starcraft scene is MUCH smaller.
The term's use will obviously diminish over time as more money is put into the NA scene.
Don't let the word bring you down, take back the word!
SAY IT LOUD, I'M FOREIGN AND I'M PROUD!
/facepalm
|
Language isn't logical. Why would you think it was? Its based on use, shared meaning, and frequency.
This is like trying to say that we can't use the word 'epic' anymore because we aren't talking about the odyssey.
EDIT: if you don't like it, instead of saying 'foreigner' how about saying 'Koreanally challenged' or something.
|
Northern Ireland2557 Posts
Agreed, its just BW elitists clinging to their dying traditions
|
I agree with the OP, but I don't think we will be convincing anyone. It simply doesn't make sense to the general audience when it is a NA tournament and a NA commentator referring to his fellow countrymen as "foreigners". It makes sense in Korea, the same way that Koreans here could be correctly referred to as foreigners. The word foreigner itself is a relative term and not at all suited as a static identifier within the English language. Personally I never use it incorrectly, so I do my part. 
|
Unless you are specifically going to refer to someone as from Sweden, US etc there is no reason not to use the term foreigner.
Non-korean and international mean the exact same thing within the context of SC2, its just a word. We use it to signify anyone not from Korea, its not a slight on them and its not a negative term its just the simplest way to convey the message.
At MLG you can't use the term foreigner to mean anyone not from the US when the convention within the community is that foreigner means non-korean. Words can be used differently than their original intent, we do it all the time.......
Rape for instance, we all agree that within the context of gaming it holds a different meaning to the rest of the worlds population, well foreigner is the same.... to us it doesn't mean "someone not of my home land" after all, if I'm casting a game... anyone not from the UK is a foreigner, to a Swedish guy I am a foreigner....
|
On June 14 2011 23:23 Flaccid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 23:18 ComaDose wrote:
No its an accepted term.
You may start a movement to end it but there will be resistance.
Accept the established language.
Being a Canadian I like hockey too. Why do we all fit the stereo type so well ;p Let's start a counter-movement to the original movement. As we all know the best hockey players in the world are (to a great degree) from Canada. And the best development and junior leagues are also in Canada with an ever-increasing number of Europeans and Americans moving here in order to 'compete with the best' and increase their chances of turning pro. Because of this, and the similar context to the Korean example in SC2, we will now refer to all non-Canadian hockey players as foreigners. Tim Thomas is a pretty good goaltender, for a foreigner. Evgeni Malkin is a top-foreign player. Join the revolution! OKAY!
There are so many Canadians playing for foreign teams Id like to see them come home and make stuff happen for our teams.
To bad so much money is involved.
I also really hope that foreigners don't take our lord Stanly's cup out of our grasp this year.
There's a lot of foreigners that are better than Canadian NHL players.
There are not a lot of foreigners that are better than Korean GSL players.
EDIT:+ Show Spoiler +On June 14 2011 23:45 Maliris wrote:
Agreed, its just BW elitists clinging to their dying traditions lol wtf. its starcraft.
|
Yeah it's HURTING ESPORTS. (sorry couldn't resist) :p
|
No matter what the context; a foreigner still won MLG.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
Would you rather have it be named non-korean then?
''All of the non-koreans'' were eliminated.
Also this is hurting E-sports.
|
Non-korean is racist. Foreginer is not racist.
Why is this? Because if the most dense area of progamers were to change from Korea, the term non-Korean is not adaptable while the term foreigner is.
|
It made sense to use the term for BW, since everyone played it in Korea and only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, but for SC2 it really is silly to use the term.
Stop using it, I say.
|
On June 14 2011 23:45 caradoc wrote:
EDIT: if you don't like it, instead of saying 'foreigner' how about saying 'Koreanally challenged' or something.
How about "culturally disadvantaged" :D
|
On June 15 2011 00:00 Enervate wrote:
Non-korean is racist.
Really? Please explain.
On June 14 2011 23:45 caradoc wrote:
EDIT: if you don't like it, instead of saying 'foreigner' how about saying 'Koreanally challenged' or something.
When I saw this I first read it as 'anally challenged' so obviously I support the movement 100%.
|
On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the termbut for SC2 it really is silly to use the term. no its not.
its very seriously not silly.
the point is its accept terminology.
it describes a group of people briefly to those knowledgeable of the terms meaning.
does it offend you that you cant be a citizen or something?
why hate the term?
|
On June 14 2011 23:53 redFF wrote:
Yeah it's HURTING ESPORTS. (sorry couldn't resist) :p
This. You need to stop hurting ESPORTs. Consult the blog a few links below this one about the detrimental effect you are having ESPORTs.
|
By not capitalizing the 's' at the end of ESPORTS you are, in fact, hurting ESPORTS/
|
On June 14 2011 23:45 Maliris wrote:
Agreed, its just BW elitists clinging to their dying traditions
Way to go champ...
Edit: On topic, I like the term foreigner and it has nothing to do with BW, I just like it.
|
I always felt being a foreigner was a cool term. Once we take Esports as seriously as Korea we can stop being foreigners. We made the name for ourselves, I don't see it changing anytime soon anyway. foreigners FTW :D
|
HAHAHAAHAHAHA what a joke. compare sc scene to hockey.
I was watching a show the other day the joke was some canadian talking about how much he loves hockey then asking the interviewer what his favorite hockey team was. the interviewer laughed and said "I'm american, I don't care about hockey." which is true for 90% of americans, hockey is a dying sport no one cares about any more, I only watched it for the fights....the few times i did watch.
Korea loves esports and has embraced them more than any other country ESPECIALLY starcraft brood war. Also the best players have been and still are in korea. In BW if you were any good at all you went to korea to play. Didn't you see the post "naniwa and thorzain goto korea" wow our two of the best foreigners are going to korea to play in the GSL starting off in code A.
Korea is still the capital of SC bw and SC2 there is no doubt. the distinction is correct...and i'm a foreigner. I used to think it was stupid until I saw the stats, Korea rules the SC world while a couple foreigners try to battle the Koreans
|
You can only change that ONLY when the Korean reign is over in Starcraft (which is never anyway).
|
While I agree that the SC2 scene is WAAAAAAAAAAY more internationalized than Brood War's, there's still a pretty large skill gap between Korea and everyone else.
Look at MLG? You can't say that there weren't top players there from Europe and the Americas playing there, and the Koreans swept it. Yeah they didn't go undefeated like they probably would have in BW (usually did, lol) but the skill gap is still clearly there. We're not ready to lump the world together, there's still a "foreigner" and a Korean scene - how many non-Koreans play in GSL? Not a whole lot, how many Koreans play in international tournaments? Again, not a whole lot.
I think the word is definitely needed and fine to use.
PS I'm a BW elitist clinging to my old ways.
|
On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term no its not. its very seriously not silly. the point is its accept terminology. it describes a group of people briefly to those knowledgeable of the terms meaning. does it offend you that you cant be a citizen or something? why hate the term?
Just because some self-hating nerds started calling themselves foreigners back in 1999 when the term was actually more or less applicable, we should use it today? How does that make sense to you? I don't care if it's a tradition from the BW days, it's still silly and stupid and should not be used.
User was warned for this post
|
Normally I stay away from reading blogs but somehow I wound up here.
Look, Koreans are consistently at the top of starcraft and since the release of the sequel, not much has changed. Nobody is asking you to refer to yourself as a foreigner. It is neither derogatory or oppressive to be labeled as a foreigner to me. I am an American and by the by, the worst out of the major countries that compete in starcraft. But do I think that? No. Do I think I could survive on the KOR ladder? Probably not!
But is it because I am a foreigner? No. It is because I do not devote enough time to Starcraft 2 to compete with those that do. I am not digressing from my point, I'm emphasizing it. The Korean scene is currently dominate and like it or not, the Korean competitors tend to rise to the top. Especially in the (obvious) GSL. There are certain situations where foreigner would be an awful choice to describe someone, such as a NA server silver/gold tournament but if you're watching Tastosis and they use the term foreigner remember that they are in Korea and they and you alike, are foreigners.
|
On June 15 2011 00:35 Starshaped wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term but for SC2 it really is silly to use the term. no its not. its very seriously not silly. the point is its accept terminology. it describes a group of people briefly to those knowledgeable of the terms meaning. does it offend you that you cant be a citizen or something? why hate the term? Just because some self-hating nerds started calling themselves foreigners back in 1999 when the term was actually more or less applicable, we should use it today? How does that make sense to you? I don't care if it's a tradition from the BW days, it's still silly and stupid and should not be used.
after watching mlg you really think korean dominance is in any doubt? koreans are still the best, and they are getting better faster. the term foreigner still applies.
the ops hockey example doesnt make any sense as neither canada or the US are stomping face to the degree of koreans at starcraft
|
Calgary25981 Posts
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
|
no.
User was warned for this post
|
Stop trying to police language.
just like gay used to mean happy this term has another meaning and it is a well established term and people who have been part of the starcraft community won´t stop using it just because some people think it is stupid.
|
On June 15 2011 00:37 turdburgler wrote:
after watching mlg you really think korean dominance is in any doubt? koreans are still the best, and they are getting better faster. the term foreigner still applies.
the ops hockey example doesnt make any sense as neither canada or the US are stomping face to the degree of koreans at starcraft
Ok, so every time a country exercises dominance and enthusiasm over a certain sport or activity we should start speaking of the players relative to said dominating country?
So every chess player outside of Russia is a foreigner.
So every ping pong player outside of China is a foreigner.
I'm simply saying that I don't feel the term makes sense in the changing context when compared to something like BW. It's a nit-pick, nothing more. If I were an average dude sitting down to watch some StarCraft and someone described IdrA at MLG as a 'foreigner', my reaction would be "oh snap, I thought he was American. I wonder where he's from..." That's all. Don't read too much into what I'm saying and start talking about certain words as 'offensive' or start arguing the relative levels of StarCraft dominance. I'm simply nit-picking the fact that the use of a term which made relative sense in BW makes less sense in SC2.
|
Maybe you can call them 'international players'? It has less of a negative connotation than 'non-korean'. Either way, I don't think it really matters.
|
Calgary25981 Posts
On June 15 2011 00:44 Clamev wrote:
Stop trying to police language.
just like gay used to mean happy this term has another meaning and it is a well established term and people who have been part of the starcraft community won´t stop using it just because some people think it is stupid.
I'd argue that he's not trying to police language he's just raising an issue he finds silly. And it's something I hadn't revisited until I read the OP. Now, after reading it and thinking about it, I find the term 'foreigner' inappropriate for SC2. I wasn't policed into change, I just had never thought about it.
|
On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
There you go, I agree with this a lot more than just not using the word at all.
|
TBH it will probably change anyways, the term is already in flux and since there are competing forms with more use/meaning behind them already, you'll probably start to see the term fall out of use at non-Korean events eventually regardless of what we do.
The fact is, the inventory of linguistic terms we use evolved out of the reality that was BW, and many have their origin in the BW scene, and so encode that reality. The fact that sc2 is so big outside of korea, and that so many people are engaged in discourse outside of korea puts pressure on the terms to adapt to the new reality.
'foreigner' in the use that we're talking encodes a reality that doesn't exactly exist anymore, its set of connotations make is unsuited to the current social reality, so it'll fade, happens all the time and it'll all happen without us doing anything about it regardless. =)
But if Chill starts not using 'foreigner' in that way, it'll hasten its demise-- he's got the advantage of being a really big one-to-many voice so his words generally count for more.
edit: woot, post #256.
|
On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term
Yeah it is. How many televised starcraft leagues could you find outside of Korea in 1999??
|
I don't think it has anything to do with who dominates who. Korea is where E sports got a real start and has shown true staying power. It is quite simply the home of modern E sports and there is nothing wrong with identifying anyone not from this home of as a foreigner because in that context its absolutely accurate. There is nothing derogatory; it only serves as an identifier.
On June 15 2011 00:50 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term Yeah it is. How many televised starcraft leagues could you find outside of Korea in 1999??
Check up on your BW history, there were foreigners playing BW in Korea long before Nony, Idra, and ret got there.
|
On June 15 2011 00:46 Tarot wrote:
Maybe you can call them 'international players'? It has less of a negative connotation than 'non-korean'. Either way, I don't think it really matters.
You're right, it really doesn't matter - like I said, it's just a nit-pick. I don't care about negative connotations, I don't care about policing language or arguing semantics.
I simply care that things make sense in context.
As Chill reiterated, HuK is a foreigner in GSL and MMA is a foreigner in MLG. That makes sense to me (a BW elitist) but also makes sense in context to anyone else regardless of their grasp of the nuances of made-up StarCraft parlance.
I used terms like annoying and stupid in my OP and somehow people are taking my point to be about offensive and negative. Let's go ahead and stop that. That's a talk for another day and one I don't really have a say in.
|
ALLEYCAT BLUES50239 Posts
On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
this is an acceptable way of saying it.but to completely stop the usage of the term is something I disagree.
|
It's just something that carried over from sc1, tradition. Why do people even care about it, ugh.
It's just a term that doesnt really mean anything in sc2, but people still use it because they used it in sc1. So many words are used like that. I cannot see why this even matters. At all. Unless you wanna just nitpick everything.
I think it should stay, it's one of the few things left behind from sc1, just a memory.
|
Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:50 Hawk wrote:On June 15 2011 00:08 ComaDose wrote:On June 15 2011 00:01 Starshaped wrote:
It made sense to use the term for BW... only like 5 people played it in the rest of the world, This is not true and also not the reason for the term Yeah it is. How many televised starcraft leagues could you find outside of Korea in 1999?? Check up on your BW history, there were foreigners playing BW in Korea long before Nony, Idra, and ret got there.
Seems you're missing the point.
|
Ugh. Apparently, insulting people is okay when our favourite commentators do it. You can't justify it beyond 'well it hasn't been a problem before now. What changed?'. It's called tolerance, and it wears thin after a while.
|
On June 15 2011 00:53 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. this is an acceptable way of saying it.but to completely stop the usage of the term is something I disagree.
For the record, I'm not advocating the removal of the word from SC related chatter. Unfortunately Can We Please Stop With the Term 'Foreigner' as a General Term for Non-Korean StarCraft Players in International Tournaments is kind of a long title.
Chill hit the nail on the head, perfectly distilling the point down to an internet-ready, easily digestible two lines.
|
foreigner is part of our language, our culture, and you're not gonna take that away from me.
|
On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2.
Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct.
Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so.
|
Calgary25981 Posts
On June 15 2011 01:00 mTw|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct. Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so.
It was a term borrowed from Koreans. Koreans call every non-Korean 'foreigner', as they should. But the mistake was everyone adopting the term. Now that SC2 is more global and Korea is no longer the central hub, the term makes no sense in SC2.
|
I agree with the OP. In my regards the term foreigner is impolite and often missplaced in my eyes. SC II does not need koreans, many people dont even watch korean stuff. I for example am not interested in GSL and what not never watched it maybe never will.
|
I don't understand all the bullshit in the blog related to 'negativity' and 'derogatory-ness' of the word foreigners. Either you all didn't bother reading the OP or you are bad at reading.
SC2 is huge outside of Korea (in comparison to SC1). There are now many, many international tournaments and many top players from all over the world. Regardless of whether or not Korea has the strongest scene, it is not so disproportionate in size to the rest of the world that you can call everyone else outsiders (foreigners). If people want to specify that someone is not from the Korean scene, just call them non-Korean... or Swedish, or Canadian or whatever they happen to be. SC2 is international, not Korea + a sprinkling of the rest of the world.
|
On June 15 2011 01:08 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 01:00 mTw|NarutO wrote:On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct. Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so. It was a term borrowed from Koreans. Koreans call every non-Korean 'foreigner', as they should. But the mistake was everyone adopting the term. Now that SC2 is more global and Korea is no longer the central hub, the term makes no sense in SC2.
That's just it. Foreigner is a relative term and we are using it as an absolute. We should cut that shit out.
On June 15 2011 01:12 RedJustice wrote:
I don't understand all the bullshit in the blog related to 'negativity' and 'derogatory-ness' of the word foreigners. Either you all didn't bother reading the OP or you are bad at reading.
SC2 is huge outside of Korea (in comparison to SC1). There are now many, many international tournaments and many top players from all over the world. Regardless of whether or not Korea has the strongest scene, it is not so disproportionate in size to the rest of the world that you can call everyone else outsiders (foreigners). If people want to specify that someone is not from the Korean scene, just call them non-Korean... or Swedish, or Canadian or whatever they happen to be. SC2 is international, not Korea + a sprinkling of the rest of the world.
RedJustice totally gets it. Thanks for understanding my incoherent ramblings =)
|
Eh, its just semantics. I don't really see the big deal - it's sort of starcraft-slang at this point. I'm not sure why we need to debate about the word usage when its just common now.
On June 15 2011 01:08 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 01:00 mTw|NarutO wrote:On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct. Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so. It was a term borrowed from Koreans. Koreans call every non-Korean 'foreigner', as they should. But the mistake was everyone adopting the term. Now that SC2 is more global and Korea is no longer the central hub, the term makes no sense in SC2.
I would argue that korea still is the center of starcraft 2 - while it is not as important or solidified as it was in starcraft broodwar, still, the most prestigious and important tournament (I think most would agree) is held there, the best progamers play there, the vast majority of progamer houses are held there, etc.
Is starcraft 2 less centric than starcraft broodwar? Yes.
Is the center still in Korea? Yes.
|
|
|
ALLEYCAT BLUES50239 Posts
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
|
|
|
Was done on 5 June though.
|
They misspelled ESPORTS.
It's part of the heritage from BW. Kind of like tl itself. I don't think it really is annoying as such, just a term that seperates two communities, like any other.
It also gives us a history. The term gives us time before the SC2 Beta, before IEM and MLG. No reason to change it. We don't redesign old buildings because they are impractical and from another age.
|
I actually have no problem with this movement. Maybe it have to do with how much pedantic I am 
After all, both sides concur the language must adjust to fit the expectation of majority- if prominent individuals like casters stop using foreigners and shift over to replacement word, the trend will start to natrually change even without some activists hopping up and down about it. And if people does not agree, well, the term will stay.
True democracy.
|
I disagree with you for several reasons. The reason it does not compare to sports like hockey is because there is a generally even distribution of players with skill throughout countries and generally has always been the case. In SC2 the top players are about 50% Korean and 50% non Korean, and since most major tournaments from SC/SC2 took place in chorea anyone playing in them was a foreigner, the term simply carried over.
On top of which, look at the major tournaments in Korea, GSL is like 99% Korean players while MLG/Dreamhack contain people from a whole host of foreign countries. So while non-korean could apply in all cases, it was not the commonly used expression and foreigner still works in most instances of the word.
|
On June 15 2011 01:08 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 01:00 mTw|NarutO wrote:On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct. Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so. It was a term borrowed from Koreans. Koreans call every non-Korean 'foreigner', as they should. But the mistake was everyone adopting the term. Now that SC2 is more global and Korea is no longer the central hub, the term makes no sense in SC2.
A Canadian and a Swede would still be foreigners at MLG  the term honestly doesn't bother me one way or the other.
|
On June 15 2011 01:10 Holy_AT wrote:
SC II does not need koreans,
This was a sentiment that existed about a year ago when SC2 was about to be released. I am rather surprised that there are people who still hold this view when the Koreans have been winning tournaments after tournaments.
On June 15 2011 01:10 Holy_AT wrote:
many people dont even watch korean stuff. I for example am not interested in GSL and what not never watched it maybe never will.
What you said may be true, but I'm sure you are a minority.
As for OP, he has a valid point me thinks. The reason why that happened in BW was because the Koreans were so far ahead that it literally became the Koreans or others. That is not the case in SC2...yet.
|
On June 15 2011 01:37 don_kyuhote wrote:This was a sentiment that existed about a year ago when SC2 was about to be released. I am rather surprised that there are people who still hold this view when the Koreans have been winning tournaments after tournaments.
I believe Holy_AT was simply saying that SC2 doesn't necessarily require Korea in order to succeed elsewhere. That point can be argued on its own merits.
|
On June 15 2011 01:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I disagree with you for several reasons. The reason it does not compare to sports like hockey is because there is a generally even distribution of players with skill throughout countries and generally has always been the case. In SC2 the top players are about 50% Korean and 50% non Korean, and since most major tournaments from SC/SC2 took place in chorea anyone playing in them was a foreigner, the term simply carried over.
In the NHL (top level of hockey) as of 2008:
52.0% Canadian
19.9% American
5.9% Swedish
and so on. Roughly 50% Canadian, 50% foreigner.
The comparison may be more apt than you're giving it credit for ;-)
|
I agree. We should also stop referring to people from Mexico as Mexicans. Extremely rude and ignorant.
Edit: OT: I don't have a problem with the term. I think it makes a non-korean feel like an underdog in a tournament with koreans which I think is ok; I think the fans would pull more for a "foreigner" than a "white dude."
User was warned for this post
|
On June 15 2011 01:48 Alejandrisha wrote:
I agree. We should also stop referring to people from Mexico as Mexicans. Extremely rude and ignorant.
WTF?
|
On June 15 2011 01:48 Alejandrisha wrote:
I agree. We should also stop referring to people from Mexico as Mexicans. Extremely rude and ignorant.
Then call them people form Mexico, wait, isn`t a person from Mexico a Mexican?
(Too bad that english doesn`t have a distinction between nationality and citizenship.)
|
I agree. Sc2 is becoming an international esport with large tournaments outside Korea.
|
On June 15 2011 02:04 Mactator wrote:
I agree. Sc2 is becoming an international esport with large tournaments outside Korea.
Few and far apart - many are online and sometimes shaky. Winning tournaments outside of Korea won't ever make people think you're the best.
I don't think the entire world combined distributes as much money as the GSL. I could be wrong, but regardless it's at least almost true =P
|
I still see this issue as a non issue. What Chill said is accurate but when I see the term used, it is only by casters that cover Korean games very frequently.
|
On June 15 2011 01:08 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 01:00 mTw|NarutO wrote:On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct. Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so. It was a term borrowed from Koreans. Koreans call every non-Korean 'foreigner', as they should. But the mistake was everyone adopting the term. Now that SC2 is more global and Korea is no longer the central hub, the term makes no sense in SC2.
its only not the central hub by our definition. yes the rest of the world combined can throw more money into the sport but if you ask anyone where to go to play the best in the world, its korea, and if foreigners dont start taking the game more seriously soon all the money in the world wont change the fact koreans will dominate
|
On June 14 2011 23:45 caradoc wrote:
nstead of saying 'foreigner' how about saying 'Koreanally challenged'
rofl its longer now
|
Calgary25981 Posts
On June 15 2011 02:41 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 01:08 Chill wrote:On June 15 2011 01:00 mTw|NarutO wrote:On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct. Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so. It was a term borrowed from Koreans. Koreans call every non-Korean 'foreigner', as they should. But the mistake was everyone adopting the term. Now that SC2 is more global and Korea is no longer the central hub, the term makes no sense in SC2. its only not the central hub by our definition. yes the rest of the world combined can throw more money into the sport but if you ask anyone where to go to play the best in the world, its korea, and if foreigners dont start taking the game more seriously soon all the money in the world wont change the fact koreans will dominate
Canada is the best at hockey. Any Canadian would call a Non-Canadian a 'foreigner'. That doesn't mean that an American would call an American hockey player a foreigner.
That's it. It's a borrowed term that makes no sense when you borrow it. It doesn't matter who is best.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
naive nationalism is stupid, news at 11.
korea is not all good. this nationalism stuff is disgusting. this applies to any 'country'
|
As an Australian, I'd like to show you:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aborigine
The indigenous Australians were called aborigines when the British first colonised the country. An aborigine literally means an indigenous person but does not pertain to a specific country. Over time this name stuck and now an Aborigine (capitalised) specifically refers to an aboriginal Australian.
It might not be the exact same thing but I'm sure it won't kill ESPORTS if it continues.
|
it's too late my friend. it's too late.
the damage to ESPORTS has already been done!
|
i've been using "Westerner" for everyone outside China and Taiwan and "non-korean" when the likes of Sen show up since forever.
however, 'non-korean' is clunky to use when expressing yourself -though the more precise term-, so i think 'westerner' could and should pretty much replace 'foreigner' as the preferred denomination
|
Refer to the players by their nationalities. For example: MMA is Korean, IdrA is American, HuK is Canadian, Jinro is Swedish, TLO is German, White-ra is Ukrainian, Sen is Taiwanese.
Revolutionary idea isn't it?
On a side note: I see no problem with the use of foreigner and I will likely continue to use it. However, if you get butthurt by that term, feel free to use their nationalities. No ambiguity and 100% politically correct.
|
On June 15 2011 02:43 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 02:41 turdburgler wrote:On June 15 2011 01:08 Chill wrote:On June 15 2011 01:00 mTw|NarutO wrote:On June 15 2011 00:43 Chill wrote:
This is one change I can get behind. I will lead the charge with you, Flaccid!
Huk and Jinro = Foreigners at GSL
MC and MMA = Foreigners at MLG
Non-Koreans shouldn't be frankly called foreigners in SC2. Actually I don't think it ever had something to do with where the player was from, but what the "homecountry" of that sports was. Koreans will always be Koreans (obvious-_-) and non-Koreans will always be foreign in Starcraft related stuff. I wouldn't mind a change, but I still find the term and how its used right now correct. Same with people living in another country, even if you are born there you still are a foreigner if your parents weren't.. at least I would say so. It was a term borrowed from Koreans. Koreans call every non-Korean 'foreigner', as they should. But the mistake was everyone adopting the term. Now that SC2 is more global and Korea is no longer the central hub, the term makes no sense in SC2. its only not the central hub by our definition. yes the rest of the world combined can throw more money into the sport but if you ask anyone where to go to play the best in the world, its korea, and if foreigners dont start taking the game more seriously soon all the money in the world wont change the fact koreans will dominate Canada is the best at hockey. Any Canadian would call a Non-Canadian a 'foreigner'. That doesn't mean that an American would call an American hockey player a foreigner. That's it. It's a borrowed term that makes no sense when you borrow it. It doesn't matter who is best.
It's a pretty shaky comparison as there aren't many similarities between the two scenes of hockey and starcraft - especially considering a vast majority of the NHL teams are located in American cities.
Really, there isn't much you can compare it to, and I stand by my statement that korea remains the center of starcraft 2 until otherwise proven. Thus, i don't find it too odd to call non-koreans foreigners.
Edit: and most importantly, i stand by my statement that it doesn't really matter.
|
Lol people find the dumbest shit to complain about.
|
On June 15 2011 04:40 Megaliskuu wrote:
Lol people find the dumbest shit to complain about.
Seriously.
|
On June 15 2011 04:40 Megaliskuu wrote:
Lol people find the dumbest shit to complain about.
We need to HURTING ESPORTS somehow.
People will always find a way.
|
|
|
I agree with the OP on the current use of the word Foreigner.
It isn't applicable anymore to determine all players outside of the mainbase (Korea) of the professional game as Korea actually has a very low number of tournaments compared to Europe / America. In BW I could understand the use of the word as there was no professional scene outside of Korea. So every non-Korean wanting to participate in the professional scene had to move there and thus was automatically a foreigner.
Sure the skill level in Korea is still very high but it's easier to become a pro gamer on the European / American scene as the Korean scene because there are so much more tournaments as in Korea and a lot of people are making their living of SC2 without having to move to Korea. Hence the use of the word foreigner is outdated.
The use of the word foreigner could even potentially harm the development of esports as potential sponsors (who more and more have no direct affinity with the computer scene) may look at it and think along the lines of: "Well if everybody outside Korea is regarded a foreigner Korea must be the place where we need to be and put our sponsor money to work."
This could turn to a drainage of sponsors or lack of new sponsors on the European / American scene with over time less tournaments and prize money and eventually the death of the scene outside of Korea.
ps. I also don't want to start using "non-Korean" instead, for the same reasons as above explained.
|
What do we call them again?
The outsiders?
Dudes who play StarCraft for funsies?
Free money for Koreans?
I'm teasin' on that last one, but seriously .__.
|
I thought I played Starcraft II to get away from political correctness.
|
On June 14 2011 23:18 ComaDose wrote:
No its an accepted term.
You may start a movement to end it but there will be resistance.
Accept the established language.
Being a Canadian I like hockey too. Why do we all fit the stereo type so well ;p
i'm canadian and hockey is boring. i also don't drink beer. STEREOTYPE SHATTERED
|
I always thought foreigner had a nice ring to it. I'll agree that non-Korean is a more accurate term but it's harder to say and doesn't have the same ring.
As far as the existence of the term, it is convenient because describing a player as Korean or foreigner actually does convey something meaningful. For example:
- a Korean player and a foreigner player with the same skill level will result in the foreigner getting much more relative attention
- in MLG Columbus, Idra gets credit for being the top foreigner
- in GSL, Jinro gets credit for being the most successful foreigner
- Hwangsin, a relatively unknown Korean, rolled through the TL open without too much fanfare nor did it shock anyone. A relatively unknown foreigner doing the same would have made shockwaves
So the term has use, and I like foreigner better than any replacement - I see no need to change it.
|
What is the point of this discussion? The Foreigners term has been used for a long long time now, so it has its own heritage.
Beside, even SC2 is quite big outside Korea, Korea still has the best players. Everybody else outside Korea is always looking up to them. We all witnessed how Korean perform when they come to international event, they raped everyone that not Koreans.
So the term was here for a long time and it is here to stay untill the day Foreigners can win a majority of tourneys which I think will never come :D/
|
On June 15 2011 08:40 qdenser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 23:18 ComaDose wrote:
No its an accepted term.
You may start a movement to end it but there will be resistance.
Accept the established language.
Being a Canadian I like hockey too. Why do we all fit the stereo type so well ;p i'm canadian and hockey is boring. i also don't drink beer. STEREOTYPE SHATTERED
YOU MAY BE FROM CANADA BUT YOU, SIR ARE NO CANADIAN!!1!
|
A lot of people on TL don't understand basic linguistic concepts. A word can change its meaning over time and in an environment like the internet this process is super accelerated.
Not to say that foreigner has changed in meaning, just people ignore this related concept a lot.
Foreigner is fine by me, its a throwback from bw players. Kind of like a mental check that I know it isn't some newschool fuckoff who's trying to cash in on the popularity of sc2. The more bw references the better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
